Chaos vs. New Marines

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

It looks like the Sallies and Fists will shake up the meta and we'll be seeing:

 

Flexible "Counter Everything" NuMarines (Ultras)
 

Crazy Smashy High Speed NuMarines (Scars)

 

Alpha Strike/Deployment Pressure/Resource Drain NuMarines (RavenGuard)

 

Board Control/Long Range Fire NuMarines (Iron Hands)

 

Firepower Castle/Anti-Castle Numarines (Fists)

 

Mid-Table Brawling/Anti-Board Control Numarines (Salamanders)

 

Miscellaneous Successor Chapters

 

So the two new types appear to be optimized to destroy counterpart lists from their own category. Fists will effectively be optimized toward being a castle that kills castles and Salamanders' durability/close range heavy fire/target priority shenanigans will be pretty well set to challenge other mid-table brawlers like Death Guard, Thousand Sons, etc.

 

My hopeful prediction is that Fists will break up the IH castle meta (possibly being vulnerable themselves to a speedy, close in shooting assault or CC that has specialized bonuses against them...i.e. Death to the False Emperor, etc.) and Salamanders will be able to effectively close with and destroy Ultramarines via targeting manipulation, durability, and super heavy point blank shooting.

 

That will mean a more varied meta where there are still lots of scary NuMarines out there but a greater variety of lists will have at least some chance depending on matchups because so many of the NuMarines will be so good at killing each other, though as Techsoldaten said, all-comers lists may well be impossible for all factions except perhaps Ultras, Orks (albeit with different choices to current) Guard, or maybe some variety of Eldar. Looks bleak for us as "Marines-lite" but there may be opportunity if we work hard at exploiting local metas.

 

There is also the sad possibility that we could return to the "Star Cannon" meta of mid 3rd edition where 75% or so of the tourney field in many areas tended to be Marine Rhino Rush (either black, red, or gray, or occasionally spiky with added Daemon Bomb), 20% or so was Eldar, and the rest was all lumped into the last 5%, including the horde armies that naturally killed Star Cannon Eldar but couldn't beat Rhino Rush. Rhino Rush stalemated against itself, murdered everyone EXCEPT Star Cannon Eldar, and lost horribly to Star Cannon Eldar.....like so horribly that it was a farce. Every once in a while, Nids, Sisters, or Dark Eldar would break this up, but their player bases were tiny and their armies at the time had a very low tolerance for player mistakes.

 

So we could have all the NuMarines murdering everyone else EXCEPT a certain hyper-optimized Xenos army of some kind that trounces them and ends up dominating because most of the field plays NuMarines, NuMarines have the greatest odds against the greatest majority of armies, and NuMarines kill the Xenos army's natural counters. I really hope not.

Edited October 16, 2019 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Aothaine]

 

 

I know that my Iron Hands list is super fast and not tanky at all. I am running 6 Land Speeder Storms of various builds, click here to see. I plan on running four of the SRSR and two of the LRSR builds for my troops options. I plan on taking Land Speeder Typhoons as my fast attack options then rock eliminator squads with fusil for my heavy support and Invictor suits for my elites. I'll then have 3 primaris librarians in phobos. Should come super close to 2k. Hell it might even be a bit over 2k. But if I have extra points I'll be adding another scout squad in ls storm. This is honestly what White Scars should be able to do. But Iron Hands just do it so much better. The land speeders in the FA slots are just fillers really so they will most likely be equipped with double heavy bolters.

 

I'm most likely way over 2k lol! I won't know for sure until I can get my codex next week and point cost everything.

 

I am really confused on how to beat a list like this. It is so fast with tons of threats and has the ability to avoid charges or escape from them very easily. Shooting lists are the name of the game. But they have been like this for awhile now. I'm wondering what they are going to do to CSM to make up for all the new units that Loyalists are getting.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Aothaine

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

 

I know that my Iron Hands list is super fast and not tanky at all. I am running 6 Land Speeder Storms of various builds, click here to see. I plan on running four of the SRSR and two of the LRSR builds for my troops options. I plan on taking Land Speeder Typhoons as my fast attack options then rock eliminator squads with fusil for my heavy support and Invictor suits for my elites. I'll then have 3 primaris librarians in phobos. Should come super close to 2k. Hell it might even be a bit over 2k. But if I have extra points I'll be adding another scout squad in ls storm. This is honestly what White Scars should be able to do. But Iron Hands just do it so much better. The land speeders in the FA slots are just fillers really so they will most likely be equipped with double heavy bolters.

 

I'm most likely way over 2k lol! I won't know for sure until I can get my codex next week and point cost everything.

 

I am really confused on how to beat a list like this. It is so fast with tons of threats and has the ability to avoid charges or escape from them very easily. Shooting lists are the name of the game. But they have been like this for awhile now. I'm wondering what they are going to do to CSM to make up for all the new units that Loyalists are getting.

 

Iron Hands Airforce (Storm Talons/Stormhawks) is another one people are worried about. Ignoring move/fire penalties, 6+ shrugs, and inbuilt reroll 1's make fast armies with lots of heavy guns super efficient, not to mention the other stuff.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

As a note, Iron Hands just took the nerfbat right to the face. Per the FAQ that dropped today:

 

Ironstone is now 1 vehicle per turn only

Reforge cannot heal a vehicle that has been healed by other means

Rites of Tempering (the 5++) on the Iron Father now only works on Infantry

March of the Ancients is once per battle

 

Optimal Repulsion Doctrines and Souls of Iron went up to 2CP.

 

Machine Empathy no longer allows targeting the same vehicle again, though the user can still heal a second time (just not the same target)

 

This makes our chances against their vehicles MUCH better.

[Panzer]

They might have taken the nerfbat but definitely not right to the face. They still have a lot of strong things going on and from what I've seen I'd say they are still the strongest vanilla chapter.

[Lord_Starscream]

How bout them autocannons for a gunline?

 

Autocannon Havocs. Reapers on deepstriking Terminators. Autocannons in small Chaos Space Marine squads. 

 

Realistically, for gunline related things... that's all I can think of. The Damage 2 element to it seems to be the only reliable thing you can hope for.

 

I'm not sure melee is really an option for reasons stated prior. Deep strikes for the purposes of charging is a no go. Even if they don't take infilitrators, it's still a hard play to pull off.

 

Overall, I've found the news of this depressing, as I was hoping 40k's rules would move closer to sanity, rather than just more damage heaps. :|

 

This is why I mainly paint now, versus actually playing XD

[techsoldaten]

On the subject of making CSMs better: had a long, drawn out game tonight that was more like an argument. We house ruled a couple things to give Chaos more of an advantage, thought I'd share some of what happened while it's still fresh.

 

He plays Ultramarines and his perspective on NuMarines is similar but different than ones I've expressed in this thread. He agrees NuMarines have all these new toys / tactics that affect fundamental mechanics in the game. However, he still thinks of Marines as costly elite army, each unit lost results in a substantial reduction of power. In other words, they are not a glass hammer, more like a copper one. I shared some of my experiences in previous games with a "standard" Chaos army, and we decided to try something to make the game more fair.

 

I used my standard Black Legion gunline but I subbed out the Lascannons on the CSMs for Reaper Chain Cannons / Butcher Cannons on the Contemptors, and replaced the Cultists with 2 Jump Pack Sorcerers. I didn't take notes on his list, but it was mostly Primaris units from the Shadowspear and Dark Imperium sets - Intercessors, Suppressors, Eliminators and Infiltrators, along with a couple Redemptors. 80% infantry on both sides.

 

The house rules were as follows:

 

- All Chaos powers were changed to Area of Effect. Instead of affecting a single unit, all units in range of the spell (including the caster) were affected.

 

- We played a mission from Shadowspear, where there was a single objective and Chaos got points for each turn a Sorcerer held it. We changed the mission to add a second objective to the Imperial side, where they got points for holding it. The winner would be the side that had the most points at the end.

 

Here's how the game went.

 

- He went first, deploying his Infiltrators near my lines and holding the rest back. He got off some shots on Havocs, costing me 2 Chaincannons right away. The Eliminators and Suppressors mostly fired on the Contemptors, wounding a couple.

 

- My army moved forward. I played aggressively and didn't leave a Sorcerer on the objective. Abaddon landed at a point just between the Interceptor squads and right near the Daemon Prince. I cast Warp Time - which had a range of 3 - and moved up the Havocs and the Contemptors, along with a Sorcerer. I cast Prescience, which affected all these units. Chaincannons from the CSM squads managed to destroy one of the Interceptors. Chaincannons from the Havocs managed to kill 5 Intercessors. Butcher Cannons managed to catch one of the Redemptors, doing a fair number of wounds. The Daemon Prince failed a charge on one of the Interceptors and took some wounds.

 

- In his next turn, he used a Stratagem to give a 10-man Intercessor squad the Tactical Doctrine while the rest of his army was still using Devastator. He moved the Intercessors out of charge range, moved up with the Redemptors, and most of the rest of his army stood still. They destroyed one of the Contemptors and 1 of the Havoc Squads, leaving Abaddon exposed. He took some shots from the Suppressors and lost a couple wounds. He tried and failed a charge on Abaddon with the wounded Intercessor squad. It wasn't dire, but I only had one full unit of Chaincannon Havocs remaining (along with the CSMs) and needed them to get some work done.

 

- In my next turn, I moved everything forward, bunching models up near the Sorcerers to maximize their powers. I got off Warp Time, Prescience and Diabolic Strength, along with a couple smites. This time, the Havocs, Contemptors, Daemon Prince, Abaddon, and a couple CSM squads were affected. During the shooting phase, he lost his remaining Infiltrators and some Intercessors, along with some wounds off both the Redemptors (both were still alive.) The Suppressors and the Eliminators were out of range. Abaddon and the Daemon Prince charged Intercessors, destroying one unit and leaving a couple models from the other.

 

- His turn 3 went like this: he fell back with the remaining Intercessor, destroyed my Havocs, put wounds on my Contemptors, and managed to kill a Sorcerer with sniper rifles. He charged Abaddon with a Primaris Captain and Lieutenant, forcing me to interrupt to kill the Lieutenant as Abaddon was suddenly on his last wound. He charged the Daemon Prince with a Redemptor, taking it down to a couple wounds before fighting back. The Daemon Prince managed to destroy the Redemptor because he had Diabolic Strength and Prescience, getting wounds on most of his attacks.

 

- My turn 3 went like this: Abaddon fell back, the CSMs and the Contemptors moved up, the Sorcerers put Prescience and Diabolic Strength on everything, the Daemon Prince but Weaver of Fates on himself. They also cast Death Hex on the Primaris Captain, which allowed the Chaincannons to gun him down. The Contemptors fired on the Suppressors, killing all but one. He also had a Librarian, who hadn't played much of a role in this game. One Sorcerer was able to put some wounds on him with Daemon Shell. The Daemon Prince was still in combat with the Redemptor but didn't have Prescience and Diabolic Strength this turn, so I used VotLW to give him +1 to wound. He killed the Redemptor before he had a chance to strike back.

 

- By turn 4, he had a Librarian, a Redemptor, a Suppressor, and a squad of Eliminators (I think - the ones with the sniper rifles.) If you remember the mission, each of us had an objective. He was up 7 points to 0, the Librarian had been standing by it the whole game. I had more units but we both knew he could win just by killing the rest of my Sorcerers. In the shooting phase, he destroyed a Contemptor, took a Sorcerer down to 2 wounds, and managed to gun down enough CSMs to create a nice gap for the Redemptor to charge both of the remaining Sorcerers. The Redemptor did manage to charge the Sorcerers but only got one. The Librarian charged a CSM squad. In combat, the Redemptor killed the Sorcerer and the Librarian killed half the CSMs. The remaining models were just outside Abaddon's morale bubble and I lost the remainder of the squad.

 

- My turn 4 went like this: the surviving Sorcerer flew back to the objective. 2 CSM squads opened up with Chaincannons and managed to do a couple wounds to the Librarian. The Contemptor did a ton of wounds to the Redemptor and somehow it managed to make all its saves. Abaddon charged the Redemptor and the Daemon Prince charged the Librarian. In combat, Abaddon did some wounds to the Redemptor and made all his saves. The DP and the Librarian both whiffed.

 

- His turn 5 went like this: the Librarian used smite on the DP, doing one wound. The Suppressors shot at the Sorcerer and failed to wound. The Redemptor managed to wound Abaddon, killing him. The Librarian whiffed in combat, the DP promptly killed him.

 

- My turn 5 went like this: the DP and the remaining CSMs moved towards the Supressors to destroy them. The Sorcerer moved behind the objective, preventing LOS from the Redemptor. The Contemptor wounded the Redemptor, which managed to make all it's saves. The CSMs managed to put a wound on one Eliminators, the DP made a long charge to catch them in combat but died to overwatch. The Contemptor charged the Redemptor to tie it up in combat.

 

- At this point, the score was 4 - 6. We rolled to see if the game continued and it did. The Eliminators immediately gunned down the Sorcerer. Since I had no way to earn additional points, the game was over. He won.

 

Observations:

 

- The game was close, I might have won had I kept a Sorcerer on the objective. Saying might because the Eliminators could have taken him out at any time. Not sure what the answer would have been.

 

- Making Chaos Psychic Powers area of effect might be a valid solution to some of the issues posed by NuMarines. Made it much simpler to mount an offense when I could Warptime several units at once.

 

- I'm really not a fan of chaincannons due to the range. One of the side benefits of the house rules was that I could get them in range. Deadly once they are in position.

 

- There's ways to optimize around AoE by bunching units around each other. This was a positive and a negative. Having everything in one location meant I had to fight through a lot of stuff to get to the unit that ultimately ended the game.

 

- As far as the original argument goes, nothing in this game persuaded me NuMarines are anything approaching a glass hammer, fighting Chaos or otherwise. The army remained a threat throughout the entire game. Where I had some sympathy was with regard to massed shooting, Intercessors don't stand up to 60+ shot barrages as well as one might think. Dark Eldar can probably stand up to NuMarines a lot better than other factions.

[Lord_Starscream]

 

- As far as the original argument goes, nothing in this game persuaded me NuMarines are anything approaching a glass hammer, fighting Chaos or otherwise. The army remained a threat throughout the entire game. Where I had some sympathy was with regard to massed shooting, Intercessors don't stand up to 60+ shot barrages as well as one might think. Dark Eldar can probably stand up to NuMarines a lot better than other factions.

 

Dark Eldar, I think, are still in the running for one of the most solid armies in the game in 8th edition. They have an intense level of killing potential, and their incredibly fast. Numarines or not, they're going to get in, they're going to melt your men, and there just isn't a lot that can be done about it.

 

Of course, inversely, the Dark Eldar themselves, are melted upon contact. lol

[Prot]

@techsoldaten,

 

Thanks for sharing the experience. I still think NuMarines (not IH) are glass hammers, but any aspect of them can do real damage now. Keep in mind you are -not- built to fight marines. Tau, DE, Astra, AdMech, Eldar are all very capable in that regard and force very hard exchanges which result in a lot of death. I play against those factions a lot, and my NuMarines disappear like nothing against the sheer weight of firepower.

 

It is a very interesting idea you guys had. I'm not typically a big fan of modifying 40K to make it work.... but I do like the idea you came up with for Psychic powers... it makes me think that would be a really cool idea for Psychic Awakening with Chaos.(it won't happen, but still, cool idea.)

 

As a side note... and I keep saying this after failed experiments in tournaments. Put Havocs in Rhino's. Yes rhino's suck. But between Xenos and the sheer Infantry killing power of NuMarines, it extends their usefulness greatly (Plus they're still tall enough to Rhino Wall/block.

 

1 Rhino=2 squads. Chaincanonns get out 3" + 6 +24 = effective range of 33" without Warp Time.

 

I hate using Rhino's too.

[techsoldaten]

 

Dark Eldar, I think, are still in the running for one of the most solid armies in the game in 8th edition. They have an intense level of killing potential, and their incredibly fast. Numarines or not, they're going to get in, they're going to melt your men, and there just isn't a lot that can be done about it.

 

Of course, inversely, the Dark Eldar themselves, are melted upon contact. lol

 

 

Yeah, I still say Dark Eldar, Imperial Knights, and Orks are are the top of the current meta.

 

I'm sure NuMarines will give them a run for their money, but it remains to be seen who is the best.

 

@techsoldaten,

 

Thanks for sharing the experience. I still think NuMarines (not IH) are glass hammers, but any aspect of them can do real damage now. Keep in mind you are -not- built to fight marines. Tau, DE, Astra, AdMech, Eldar are all very capable in that regard and force very hard exchanges which result in a lot of death. I play against those factions a lot, and my NuMarines disappear like nothing against the sheer weight of firepower.

 

It is a very interesting idea you guys had. I'm not typically a big fan of modifying 40K to make it work.... but I do like the idea you came up with for Psychic powers... it makes me think that would be a really cool idea for Psychic Awakening with Chaos.(it won't happen, but still, cool idea.)

 

As a side note... and I keep saying this after failed experiments in tournaments. Put Havocs in Rhino's. Yes rhino's suck. But between Xenos and the sheer Infantry killing power of NuMarines, it extends their usefulness greatly (Plus they're still tall enough to Rhino Wall/block.

 

1 Rhino=2 squads. Chaincanonns get out 3" + 6 +24 = effective range of 33" without Warp Time.

 

I hate using Rhino's too.

 

One house rule to Psychic Powers made a traditional Chaos list resilient enough to stand up to Ultramarines. This probably wouldn't work against Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, but it's worth thinking about.

 

No clue what the rules writers are planning, but I don't expect much from Psychic Awakening. There's a reason Dark Hereticus powers only affect a single unit, it was demonstrated during this game. They don't want Chaos to actually be good with their Psychic phase.

 

Not sure if I agree NuMarines would fall so easily to these other factions, but I'm willing to take your word for it. I've seen enough strangeness to think there's ways to deal with each of those armies.

 

With regards to Rhinos, I'm actually a big fan, I just think they are overpriced and don't take them. Anything to keep your mid-ranged units around an extra turn is a good thing.

[Lord_Starscream]

 

 

Dark Eldar, I think, are still in the running for one of the most solid armies in the game in 8th edition. They have an intense level of killing potential, and their incredibly fast. Numarines or not, they're going to get in, they're going to melt your men, and there just isn't a lot that can be done about it.

 

Of course, inversely, the Dark Eldar themselves, are melted upon contact. lol

 

 

Yeah, I still say Dark Eldar, Imperial Knights, and Orks are are the top of the current meta.

 

I'm sure NuMarines will give them a run for their money, but it remains to be seen who is the best.

 

@techsoldaten,

 

Thanks for sharing the experience. I still think NuMarines (not IH) are glass hammers, but any aspect of them can do real damage now. Keep in mind you are -not- built to fight marines. Tau, DE, Astra, AdMech, Eldar are all very capable in that regard and force very hard exchanges which result in a lot of death. I play against those factions a lot, and my NuMarines disappear like nothing against the sheer weight of firepower.

 

It is a very interesting idea you guys had. I'm not typically a big fan of modifying 40K to make it work.... but I do like the idea you came up with for Psychic powers... it makes me think that would be a really cool idea for Psychic Awakening with Chaos.(it won't happen, but still, cool idea.)

 

As a side note... and I keep saying this after failed experiments in tournaments. Put Havocs in Rhino's. Yes rhino's suck. But between Xenos and the sheer Infantry killing power of NuMarines, it extends their usefulness greatly (Plus they're still tall enough to Rhino Wall/block.

 

1 Rhino=2 squads. Chaincanonns get out 3" + 6 +24 = effective range of 33" without Warp Time.

 

I hate using Rhino's too.

 

One house rule to Psychic Powers made a traditional Chaos list resilient enough to stand up to Ultramarines. This probably wouldn't work against Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, but it's worth thinking about.

 

No clue what the rules writers are planning, but I don't expect much from Psychic Awakening. There's a reason Dark Hereticus powers only affect a single unit, it was demonstrated during this game. They don't want Chaos to actually be good with their Psychic phase.

 

Not sure if I agree NuMarines would fall so easily to these other factions, but I'm willing to take your word for it. I've seen enough strangeness to think there's ways to deal with each of those armies.

 

With regards to Rhinos, I'm actually a big fan, I just think they are overpriced and don't take them. Anything to keep your mid-ranged units around an extra turn is a good thing.

 

 

I actually think that Chaos's problems run much deeper than taking Rhino's.

 

Effectively, Primaris are flatly better than the options that CSM get. Which hurts me as I bought a company of Chaos Space Marines to replace half my old Word Bearer models, and my old Night Lords. It's not pretty lol. I mostly buy to paint and have them at this point, but I did give myself the fantasy of using them again some day. That fantasy has been kinda drowned in the bathtub :P

 

This is also because of 8th edition itself as well. With killing power upped across the board, 3+ MEC's just aren't really... durable. This is something that's always been true. I used to run my armies with the idea in mind that I wouldn't get my 3+ save, or it wouldn't be worth much when I got it, and that was prior to 8th edition. I've not played much lately, as I'm really, really not a fan of how 8th has gone, but armies that just throw damage out, even if they are glass cannons, it doesn't matter. Because outside of maybe Death Guard and Nurgle, most armies just can't take the abuse. They all melt.

[Scourged]

 

No clue what the rules writers are planning, but I don't expect much from Psychic Awakening. There's a reason Dark Hereticus powers only affect a single unit, it was demonstrated during this game. They don't want Chaos to actually be good with their Psychic phase.

 

In my opinion, such reservations about Psychic Awakening are well-founded. Though it's quite early and still far too soon to trust "leaks," all of the scuttlebutt for what Chaos will see with their book is... underwhelming. There will be less rules content than what the Aeldari received. Hell, Successor Traits are supposedly not included. Again, far to early to trust any of these tidbits, but as aforementioned, tempered expectations are wise. This book is not going to be Vigilus Ablaze, and it is not going to be the fix we want or need. 

 

On the topic at hand, here... I've got to say, I commend you all for continuing the Long War. Personally, I've just been so turned-off by playing Chaos. To be fair, this started a bit before Marines 2.0 did. It's hard to articulate, but... playing CSM just hasn't felt "fun" for a while. I enjoy the game, and I love my Alpha Legion to death, but playing them never felt... let's say immersive and characterful. For a while, it's just felt like "an army" and not "an Alpha Legion/Chaos army." Which, to be fair, seemed to be the same vibe the loyalist players had (and doubly so for my Dark Angel friend). The army felt "fine" but not exciting.

 

Now? Blah. Forget it. I don't have that Chaos mojo flowing. I follow this thread, and many others, and I'm watching all of the different list builds for NuMarines coming out. There's so many! And they're all holding their own and doing well. No, they aren't all ITC Top Table good, but it generally looks like you can build a NuMarine TAC list that has a bit of narrative fluffiness to it. And then I glance longingly at our codex and just sigh... Our list design lately is so... bland, and calculated, and has little to no variance. And nothing - nothing! - gets under my skin more than watching the parade of Ahriman & Co.™ with Disco Lords and Plaguebearers. Or if not that, it's a parade of Contemptors and Deredeos. To each their own, of course, but for me? Hard pass. 

 

Luckily, my playgroup is predominantly not Codex-adherent. Our only buddy who is plays Salamanders, so it'll still be a couple weeks before I can try my hand against the new book and see how it feels. And I just may do such a thing and report my findings. But from all I've seen, all over the web... I'm not exactly thrilled at the prospect. Our mini-Vulkan buddy is exactly who this new book and supplement were made for. And I am happy on his behalf that the lists he likes to build will finally be worthwhile and have some bite to them (hopefully). He'll get to play a "Salamanders army," but I'll still be stuck with just "an army." But hey, we'll give it a go and see what happens. 

 

Thank you all for this thread, by the way. Reading the posts here daily has been cathartic. All of the brainstorming and playtesting and feedback and critiques, with all of it handled in such a polite and responsible manner... that's why I love it here. But probably, for a while, my warband is going to fade into the shadows and watch how the wars across the galaxy unfold. And when the time is right, the Hydra will strike once more.... But until then, I am going to double-down on working on my Drukhari. Even though they're Aeldari, they all still have spikes on them, so that still counts... right? 

[DamnedProphet]

How bout them autocannons for a gunline?

 

Autocannon Havocs. Reapers on deepstriking Terminators. Autocannons in small Chaos Space Marine squads. 

 

Realistically, for gunline related things... that's all I can think of. The Damage 2 element to it seems to be the only reliable thing you can hope for.

 

I was wondering about this, myself. I was originally going to equip 2x 5-man marines with Chaincannons, but since they might have a chance of dying vs. 30" bolters, it might be a good idea to give them AC's. Heck, maybe HB's might be worth taking for the extra range if GW gives them a price discount.

 

BTW, Autocannons have D2, but Reaper Autocannons only have D1 for... reasons. 

Edited October 18, 2019 by DamnedProphet

[Iron Father Ferrum]

BTW, Autocannons have D2, but Reaper Autocannons only have D1 for... reasons.

Smaller shells, less propellant. Higher rate of fire, less damage, less range.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Iron Father Ferrum

[Squike]

 

BTW, Autocannons have D2, but Reaper Autocannons only have D1 for... reasons.

Smaller shells, less propellant. Higher rate of fire, less damage, less range.

I get that terminators are meant to be heavy assault troops, so a shorter range makes sense, but at the same time the have terminator armour which always seems to be described as like wearing tank armour, so in this instance you would expect the user/armour to be able to take the punishment put out by higher rate of fire but bigger damage weapon easily, keep the shorter range as that can be sacrificed for the rate of fire, but the damage should still be 2 or even 3, may make the reaper autocannon actually worth taking.

[Panzer]

As a side note... and I keep saying this after failed experiments in tournaments. Put Havocs in Rhino's. Yes rhino's suck. But between Xenos and the sheer Infantry killing power of NuMarines, it extends their usefulness greatly (Plus they're still tall enough to Rhino Wall/block.

 

1 Rhino=2 squads. Chaincanonns get out 3" + 6 +24 = effective range of 33" without Warp Time.

 

I hate using Rhino's too.

 

Funnily enough that's what I plan to do for EC once I know whether they can still use those things. Just with the drill. Mostly because it's a cool thing to do, not because it's particularly strong though. If it's strong as well then even better. :D

[Excessus]

Since I'm too tired to mod properly and remove all the offtopic posts right now (after a trip to WHW, just got back home earlier today) I'll just leave this here for now:

 

 

Stay on target guys, this isn't a discussion about game design, theories, or news. Make separate threads for those things please.

 

 

[Edit]: I have now done some cleaning in the thread. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Excessus
Reasons

[techsoldaten]

Psychic Awakening 2 brings some new rules and models for the NuMarine lines. Wanted to discuss them a little bit.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/15/space-marines-why-you-need-faith-furygw-homepage-post-3/

 

1) The Chapter Ancient reminds me of the Grey Knights Brotherhood Ancient, feels like they are pillaging lore. More importantly, for Chaos - NuMarines get a BS and WS of 2+ under the affect of the banner. It's described as an aura buff, under Tactical Doctrine this would make a 5 man Intercessor squad very killy against MEQ.

 

2) Chief Librarians can deny at 36" range. This is really bad for Chaos units that rely on psychic buffs because it's beyond move and charge range. A Chief Librarian could do this from enough distance that you'd have no way to respond.

 

3) Master of the Forge allows a Primaris Techmarine to heal 3 wounds per turn on vehicles (instead of d3.) While the wording is a little tricky, it sounds like you can have one for each detachment. NuMarines now have better ways to restore wounds than any Chaos Daemon engine, but it also presents a really tricky problem for Chaos. Things like Repulsors become priority targets, reducing them to 2 wounds isn't enough if it can be brought back up to 5 right away.

 

This is another example of GW creating rules that mess with the mechanics of the game. PEQ HQs are giving buffs that don't just make other units stronger, but force opponents into strategies that put them at a disadvantage. Being able to heal 3 wounds a turn guaranteed means it's not enough to bracket a tank, you have to put it down. Being able to deny from 36" means a Librarian can just kite a psyker from almost across the board. Being able to buff other units to 2+ WS / BS means PEQ can just set up a firing point in the middle of the battlefield and (with 30" guns) shoot up anything that comes at them.

 

The key stat is range. Chaos doesn't have anything that moves and charges at 30"+. GW is essentially giving PEQ a "free" turn where Chaos can't respond with it's best attacks, we will always need to close ground against something that can shoot us. I've read the Chaos preview as well, these new characters nerf the offensive benefits we've seen so far and might be putting us at a bigger disadvantage than Combat Doctrines did.

 

Might make sense to take a hiatus from games against Space Marines until something better comes along. The math is so obviously skewed towards NuMarines there's not much point fighting them, they're going to win the majority of match ups by virtue of HQ buffs alone.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

2+ BS/WS is just when they have already died and attack one last time.

[Aothaine]

I think we are slowly starting to see what the next new Chaos Codex is going to be like. Right now I have a strong feeling that the legions are going to get the supplement treatment. Every legion is going to be strong, but it is still questionable which will come out on top. I kind of hope it is Black Legion. Over the last few months we have been getting really fun and good rules regarding new detachments, new units, and new sculpts. I honestly would be very surprised if the Chaos updates are not next. It seems like it would be a three month release schedule for all of the chaos legions. Then you would have all the xenos and specialist codices released in mixed order. 

 

If this is true we could see the new Chaos Codex and supplements all released by March or April 2020. I'm pretty sure there are no hints about the release schedule after Sisters.

 

But then again, they could just jump into Xenos and prove all the salty veterans of Chaos right. :/ 

[Zodd1888]

I can't imagine GW allowing this big of disparity in power disparity for any significant period of time.

 

Hope we see some changes soon!

[Marshal Loss]

If this is true we could see the new Chaos Codex and supplements all released by March or April 2020.

 

wat

 

I would not get your hopes up for any CSM content or a new codex for the foreseeable future following this release. This is probably it.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[Aothaine]

 

wat

 

I would not get your hopes up for any CSM content or a new codex for the foreseeable future following this release. This is probably it.

 

This could be true. But I would be genuinely surprised if they relegated Chaos updates just to event books. They know they are sitting on a mother load when/if World Eaters / Emperor's Children get their codices/supplements.

[Marshal Loss]

Yeah but you say "I would be surprised if the Chaos updates are not next". This is the Chaos update. We have had plenty this year. Sure, EC and WE will come at some point, but as for the near future, this is it. Any other expectation is folly

[Closet Skeleton]

1) The Chapter Ancient reminds me of the Grey Knights Brotherhood Ancient, feels like they are pillaging lore. More importantly, for Chaos - NuMarines get a BS and WS of 2+ under the affect of the banner. It's described as an aura buff, under Tactical Doctrine this would make a 5 man Intercessor squad very killy against MEQ.

 

2) Chief Librarians can deny at 36" range. This is really bad for Chaos units that rely on psychic buffs because it's beyond move and charge range. A Chief Librarian could do this from enough distance that you'd have no way to respond.

 

You're reading this all wrong.

 

Black Blow Fly already covered the ancient. Its good especially with a captain but its still only on a 4+.

 

Chapter ancients were in the first 8th ed book and every previous book since at least 5th edition, they predate brotherhood ancients (3rd and 4th ed had one standard bearer who got to choose between company, reclusium and chapter banners, 2nd ed had chapter ancients as special characters for Ultramarines, Dark and Blood Angels with the Ultramarine one actually being called an Ancient). The Ultramarine supplement also already included rules for them since they have a unique model so its not really 'new' even if the rules are not the same.

 

Chief Librarians don't get a range boost to deny, the relic gives a boost to psychic hood range. So basically it means they get +1 to deny all the time rather than in half range. Compared to the good anti-psyker stuff out there its irrelevant.

 

 

3) Master of the Forge allows a Primaris Techmarine to heal 3 wounds per turn on vehicles (instead of d3.) While the wording is a little tricky, it sounds like you can have one for each detachment. NuMarines now have better ways to restore wounds than any Chaos Daemon engine, but it also presents a really tricky problem for Chaos. Things like Repulsors become priority targets, reducing them to 2 wounds isn't enough if it can be brought back up to 5 right away.

 

Master of the Forge just means that non-Iron Hands get to spend cp to get a crappy version of Stronos. Its nothing.

 

The key stat is range. Chaos doesn't have anything that moves and charges at 30"+.

 

Sad heldrake cries alone.

 

Chaos still massively outpace nu marines, its dealing damage once we're there that hurts. My chaos range problems are still bigger against Tau than loyalists even if both will cause issues.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Closet Skeleton