Annoyed at Havocs

[tdemayo]

Was making a list today and noticed that Havoks can no longer be increased to a 10 man squad. That's... annoying.

[WarriorFish]

Have you missed the recent change to Havocs? If so it's more than a change to the maximum squad size, they've changed stats and rules too plus got a new weapon in the form of the chaincannon. It makes them quite different as aside from unit entry it also changes their use on the table top quite a bit.

 

For those of us planning and working towards the now outdated Havocs it's a bit of a pain (got to find a home for those bolter Marines now, so baby Havoc CSM squads it is ), but what's done is done. Personally I thought it was a bit of an odd way to try and differentiate them from Devastators, it'd be nice if they were a bit more different and we still had the original choice but you know the saying about wishes

[Tyriks]

Yeah, losing extra bodies is rough but at least we got T5 and no heavy penalties for it. I haven't used them yet but I have a few squads I just built and will be painting for the Call to Chaos.

[Aothaine]

Was this update in the re-release of the Chaos Space Marine dex?

[Tyriks]

Yes, and Vigilus II.

[Aothaine]

I am starting to wonder what the fuss is all about this with Chaos Space Marine Codex and vigilus ablaze. Just read an article about the new Havocs and they are insanely good!!!

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/28/heretic-astartes-tactica-havocs/

 

Punishing Volley with a squad of Havocs with four lascannons?!??! Come on people! This is outstanding! Damnit I need to get these resources now! Lol! 

 

This is just too good. I know people can position outside of the los of one of the units but no way are they hiding and still being able to avoid three Havoc units.

 

Gonna have to dig into this more now! Woooo! I have something to occupy my time for the next 6 hours!

[The Pounder]

I agree Aothaine.

 

As well as being awesome models the rules look solid too (on paper at least)

 

I’m yet to get the Vigilus book or play a game (I only have some Havocs and CSM) but I was drawn to these straight away.

 

I think everyone who sees the Chaincannon who is of a certain age can’t help but think back to Blain in Predator!

 

There’s definitely plenty of reasons to field Havocs.

[Aothaine]

I agree Aothaine.

 

As well as being awesome models the rules look solid too (on paper at least)

 

I’m yet to get the Vigilus book or play a game (I only have some Havocs and CSM) but I was drawn to these straight away.

 

I think everyone who sees the Chaincannon who is of a certain age can’t help but think back to Blain in Predator!

 

There’s definitely plenty of reasons to field Havocs.

 

Yeah, that is Governor Blain to you! lol! (crazy that two of those actors became governors  lol!), the new Havocs are very tasty. My only concern with the Chain Cannon is that is is 5 -1 1. Now this is decent if you mass them up. But it is just slightly better anti-infantry. Doesn't CSM lack anti-armor options more than anti-infantry? 

 

I suppose you could build the rest of your army around anti-armor. But what are the options really?

 

3 Havoc squads with Chaincannons x2 and lascannons x2 might be the best setup. Mix in the anti-infantry with the anti-tank and spread it out so your opponent can't nuke your anti-tank T1. However, doing this does weaken the unit's benefit from Punishing Volley. It is a tough decision but I still think I would go with the mixed squads.

 

But how does the rest of the list look? I think passing on the Chaos Lord relic from the special detachment is a no brainer unless you're setting up a fire base. And if you decide to do that you'll just want to go 3 units of 4 las cannons, pop in the Chaos Lord with The Daemon's Eye and just massacre any vehicles your opponent brings to bear. It is another option for sure. 

 

I would want to run 3 Helbrutes with this. Give them the Twin Lascannon and a Power Scourges. 

 

3x [HS] Chaos Havocs

- Chaincannon x2

- Lascannon x2

- Champion w/ Chainsword or Power Sword if you have the extra points, also not sure if you can give this guy a combi-bolter but if you can you should!

 

3x [E] Helbrute

- Twin Lascannon & Power Scourge

 

This should be close to 1100 points now. Maybe a little over that.

 

This alone is already a very powerful list to build off of. With this I would not take the Demon's Eye relic. The Havoc squads are going to be spread out and constantly moving around. Something else to note here is you're on your way to fielding a Brigade. Fill in the troops with 6 10-man cultist squads to free up a bunch of points if you want, me personally I would rather run 6 5-man marine squads because the new models are too damn good. 

 

Not to sure what to do for the Fast Attack slots but it is workable I think. Not sure it really matters which chapter you run but I would make the Havocs worship Slaanesh if you wanted to make use of Endless Cacophony. 

 

Anyone else have any decent ideas on how to build the list around that core of Havocs and Helbrutes? It doesn't have to be a brigade.

[Tyriks]

FYI, you can give Aspiring Champions combi-bolters.

[Aothaine]

FYI, you can give Aspiring Champions combi-bolters.

 GreaT! 

 

There is the flip side of this argument and you can take two squads of Oblits to deepstrike and then one unit of the quad lascannon devs to use with the strat that interrupts if you're opponent takes the first turn. 

 

I wonder if this makes it worth it to let your opponent take the first turn. Can you imagine nuking your opponent's big gribbly before it gets to shoot even once when they have the first turn? Pretty scary imho.

 

Love the new Havocs

Edited September 13, 2019 by Aothaine

[Tyriks]

 

FYI, you can give Aspiring Champions combi-bolters.

 GreaT! 

 

There is the flip side of this argument and you can take two squads of Oblits to deepstrike and then one unit of the quad lascannon devs to use with the strat that interrupts if you're opponent takes the first turn. 

 

I wonder if this makes it worth it to let your opponent take the first turn. Can you imagine nuking your opponent's big gribbly before it gets to shoot even once when they have the first turn? Pretty scary imho.

 

Love the new Havocs

 

That stratagem is actually much better used for picking on a weak unit than shooting something big like a Knight.  If you have 4 lascannon shots at a knight under normal circumstances, you'll do 4 damage or less more than 50% of the time.  Even if you have a Lord there for rerolls and a Dark Apostle that gave them +1 to hit (since that is at the beginning of the game round, not player turn) it is going to do 6 damage or less 60% of the time.  That won't even take it down a bracket.  You'd need to get VERY lucky to take it down a bracket!  By comparison, shooting those lascannons (even with no support) will do about as much damage against a Rhino which will cut its movement in half, making it a lot less likely to do its job.  

[Aothaine]

 

That stratagem is actually much better used for picking on a weak unit than shooting something big like a Knight.  If you have 4 lascannon shots at a knight under normal circumstances, you'll do 4 damage or less more than 50% of the time.  Even if you have a Lord there for rerolls and a Dark Apostle that gave them +1 to hit (since that is at the beginning of the game round, not player turn) it is going to do 6 damage or less 60% of the time.  That won't even take it down a bracket.  You'd need to get VERY lucky to take it down a bracket!  By comparison, shooting those lascannons (even with no support) will do about as much damage against a Rhino which will cut its movement in half, making it a lot less likely to do its job.  

 

Fair point. Still there is something to be feared about 12 lascannons potentially having 16 lascannon shots on your turn with the EC strat. and following that up with three twin las cannons. It should be more than enough anti-armor for an army. All of which are on mobile platforms as well. I think the CSM rules are pretty damn good. People just saw all the hype about the Space Marines and got down before realizing that their codex was actually quite good as well.

 

In the end though I think they best setup for them in the 2 Stormcannons and 2 Lascannons with combi-bolter on the AspChmp. Just need to keep in mind that these guys are going to drop super easily. So you want to make sure you have some hard hitting units throughout the rest of your army.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

I think everyone who sees the Chaincannon who is of a certain age can’t help but think back to Blain in Predator!

 

 

That and Arnie in Terminator 2 were where my head went. Damn those Chaincannons kick out some dirty shooting, wiped the look off my  Blood Angel mates smug face first time I used them. I think getting a second squad would be a good idea. 

[Trevak Dal]

Toughness 5 and one wound. Eh, well I guess they are sorta like mark of nurgle marines from older editions (though in older editions they'd be toughness 6...)

[Kain Mor]

The problem with relying on havocs (as good as they are) is pretty much everyone has played against them now, and knows to kill them off. The boost in T helped survivability a little bit, but they still die very fast. The reaper chaingun 24” range hurts, so unless you have a plan for safe delivery you can’t really put your eggs in that basket and hope for much.

[Aothaine]

The problem with relying on havocs (as good as they are) is pretty much everyone has played against them now, and knows to kill them off. The boost in T helped survivability a little bit, but they still die very fast. The reaper chaingun 24” range hurts, so unless you have a plan for safe delivery you can’t really put your eggs in that basket and hope for much.

 

This is why I like them with lascannons. Also, like to throw them in a rhino with 5 Berzerkers. It is a nice little present for anyone wanting to open the cookie jar. But anything in there with them should work. Even Chosen.

[Cheex]

For my World Eaters, I've been considering a unit of 4 chaincannons (and a combi on the champion) in a Rhino. Their role would be to open up the bubble wrap so my Berzerkers can get to the crunchy stuff inside - or, if there's no bubble wrap, to use them against enemy heavy weapon squads.

[Aothaine]

For my World Eaters, I've been considering a unit of 4 chaincannons (and a combi on the champion) in a Rhino. Their role would be to open up the bubble wrap so my Berzerkers can get to the crunchy stuff inside - or, if there's no bubble wrap, to use them against enemy heavy weapon squads.

 

If you do this you will want to run this in 3s. So have three rhinos with 5 berzerkers and 5 havocs setup the same. Duality is important.

[MegaVolt87]

1W and t5, move and shoot with 5 bodies is a poor trade for the extra 5 wound buffer. To match the old havoc DMG soak should have been either- 

2W, T4

1W, T5, 5++

 

Even then, at 5 models heavy weapons would be removed sooner anyways. May as well take the full 3 units in a devastation battery detachment if you take any at all. Well, at least we got the chain cannon at least. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Chaincannon Havocs are a trap. Anyone who has one iota of what they can do is going to prioritize killing them. Put your chaincannons in CSM squads instead.

[MegaVolt87]

Chaincannon Havocs are a trap. Anyone who has one iota of what they can do is going to prioritize killing them. Put your chaincannons in CSM squads instead.

 

Anyone done 10 in a termite? I remember a lot of theory crafting with that, anyone actually do it ? 

[Dizzyeye01]

I tried running a devastation battery with 2 squads and a laser destroyer art with two Las cannons and missiles in a campaign a while ago and erh, I don't know if it was my target priority or just bad rolls but they mostly just got chewed up. Toughness 5 is a boost but a lot of armies can deal with it with no issues.

[Prot]

By design, any worthwhile Havoc squad is a hot target. The only setup I made that had opponent's ignoring them was (honestly) Autocannons.

 

The Dev Battery I used in a tournament was extremely useful, however, the instant you've used the strat, that unit is utterly toast. I would say the only advantage of the Dev Battery is you can basically say.... I don't want to put my Havocs in a vehicle, and I want one turn of shooting out of them.

 

I still think Rhino's are very underrated. They aren't 'great' units, but almost a mandatory evil especially with new marines. Any standard marine is fantastically easy to erase from the board. Now more than I can ever recall in 40K history. The idea that you can take 5 of a single wound model, with 4 heavily armed, and walk it, or plop it in a ruin is a dead idea. 

 

There's two ways I've dealt with this fact. 1: is you take the lead from the tournament players and you simply avoid using any marine as much as humanly possible unless you really need the CP battery of Corsairs. Otherwise .... no marines. Culitsts seem to die just as quick. Instead take all as many Forgeworld Dreads as possible, add in your Purge detachment and force your opponent to deal with multiple metal boxes at T7-T8.

 

Option 2: take transports! If only we had 'real' drop pods. But for now nobody likes shooting at Rhino's. As a side note I did a battle report of my Ultra's vs. Death guard and the really bizarre thing was the DG used combi Melta Rhino's which I hadn't seen in a dog's age and I lost a Repulsor to one. 

 

Heck I even still take a Black Legion LR, and plop 10 Havocs in it, with a -1 to hit Dark Apostle power on it. I know the idea gets scoffed at, and yes often the LR dies in competitive play, but never quickly. I mean it takes real dedication to rip this thing apart and if you are careful about its placement, you can make sure the Havocs get out in cover (in most games) and at that point your opponent should have very little they can dedicate towards the Havocs.

 

That's all I got. There's no other reasonable way I've made them work.

[BrainFireBob]

No love from Prot on Noctilith Crown + Benediction of Darkness?

[Prot]

No love from Prot on Noctilith Crown + Benediction of Darkness?

 

I tried it when the unit came out. It was okay. Give it a shot. 

 

I personally  think the Noctlith is a better Thousand Sons unit where they can really maximize the re-rolls. A 5+ arua is good, but you can get it off a Dark Apostle. There's nothing wrong with trying it. I would rather use it with 3 Vindicators now though.