Relic Leviathan or Repulsor executioner

[Ishagu]

Would require you to keep a large portion of those infiltrators alive and in the same area as the heavy hitter units, at least for a couple of turns. Not necessarily easy to accomplish, especially if you face the Atalan Jackal list.

It's easier than you think because of thr size of the bubble.

 

But even if they can be destroyed, it's still slowing down the GSC significantly.

[Dark Legionnare]

 

Would require you to keep a large portion of those infiltrators alive and in the same area as the heavy hitter units, at least for a couple of turns. Not necessarily easy to accomplish, especially if you face the Atalan Jackal list.

It's easier than you think because of thr size of the bubble.

 

But even if they can be destroyed, it's still slowing down the GSC significantly.

 

Don't forget that having them camping in some cheeky spot out of LoS can do wonders for their "stick around" ability to keep that bubble up.

 

Had a local player's conga line of infiltrators put in quite a lot of deny work a couple weekends back just by dancing around the bottom section of some ruins terrain, while stretched out in a big line, to keep up the denies against Dark Eldar "surprise" strikes.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Dark Legionnare

[faithonwings]

 

 

Yup, other builds are good, but have their downsides. Dual stormcannon is the go to.

 

Can anyone with experience tell me why they dat execusioner is great? On average it's 7 S9 shots and 18 S5 shots, or 4 S12 shots and equal number of S5's. All for 50 points shy of a knight. Why is this do great. You can get equal number of fire of fire power on 2 smaller platforms for about the same point costs. Why is this one so great?

The executioner is great because it's a ton of guns on a toughness 8 body that can make use of all the iron hands buffs. Aside from iron hands buffs, which speak for themselves, I'd say these are the reasons:

 

-It's toughness 8

-It has a ton of firepower so it can clear hoards AND do anti tank

-It's laser destroyer is reliable: at least 3-6 damage per shot at strength 10 and 72 inch range. 4 shots of that is pretty good.

-It can fly, which is amazing. (It can't really be tied up in combat, can fall back and shoot, can fly over terrain, etc.)

-It is negative 2 for other units to charge it.

-It's 16 wounds are nothing to sneeze at

 

Take all of that and add all the buffs iron hands can lay on it and it becomes an amazing unit.

These are some valid points. Thank you for these. I think it's a tough unit, but not Leviathan level tough I think. Still, I think a good unit.

[Rodrick]

3 assault cannon razorbacks are almost the same points than a repulsor/levi, that's 36 s6 ap-1 d1 shots , what do you guys think?

[Khornestar]

Not bad units but not as good as either the leviathan or the repulsor executioners. Lower toughness, fewer wounds, worse save, can't fly.

[Kallas]

Not bad units but not as good as either the leviathan or the repulsor executioners. Lower toughness, fewer wounds, worse save, can't fly.

 

3 Razorbacks have more wounds than either a Leviathan or Repulsor; which is what Rodrick was comparing. Further, Leviathans also cannot fly.

 

While the Razorbacks do have a lower Toughness and a worse save, they are useful in that they come in three separate packages: you can't overkill one so far had another takes damage (well, if it blows up, I guess  ). It also means that they can be in multiple places at once, which can be useful - conversely, that does mean that they do get in each others' way, though.

 

Another benefit is that the Razorbacks can shield units, which the Leviathan certainly can't; and while the Executioner can, and can also transport, it is technically possible to draw LoS below the Executioner. The Razorbacks can also actually transport more models, which is certainly a benefit: housing three units of Tactical Marines to get them to an objective safely is not to be discarded as irrelevant - especially if you do have sufficient armoured target saturation, the Razorback would likely fall lower down on the threat ranking, making it hardier by proxy (as there will only be so many anti-tank weapons to throw at the IH list).

 

Basically, the Razorbacks would be useful, but for something beyond the Leviathan/Repulsor deathball - which in my personal opinion is probably a bit of a trap, and I think that Rodrick has the right idea.

[Khornestar]

Sorry I definitely wasn't clear about what qualities the repulsor vs. leviathan have. I guess we'll see, it hasn't been very long since the codex or supplement have been released, but certainly discussions of "the most competitive" units haven't mentioned razorbacks at all. I won't claim that in and of itself ends the argument, of course.

 

The deathball may be a trap, but the leviathan properly buffed is essentially unkillable. The executioners have high quality shooting from multiple guns, and threaten a variety of targets from the super tough to the expendable hordeling. I think emperorpants already covered their strengths in greater detail earlier in the thread, so I won't just parrot them.

 

The razorbacks have more wounds in total, but it's still much easier to kill them. Not claiming to be an expert at the game or the faction, but to me it seems pretty straightforward that razorbacks aren't even in the same league as the other two. Time will tell! As will personal preference and meta.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Juggernut

[Aothaine]

Wait a second. Why not both? Don't you need two heavy choices to even pick the Levi? Just go two Executioners and a Levi. :D Fill out the rest of your army with scouts and tech marines. :D

[Kallas]

The deathball may be a trap, but the leviathan properly buffed is essentially unkillable. The executioners have high quality shooting from multiple guns, and threaten a variety of targets from the super tough to the expendable hordeling. I think emperorpants already covered their strengths in greater detail earlier in the thread, so I won't just parrot them.

 

My opinion on the deathball is that stuffing too many points into it (eg, a Leviathan, two Repulsors, Feirros and a Lieutenant: that's about 1,050pts minimum) will be a trap. Certainly, bring a Levithan. It's a no brainer when you can have a strong offensive unit that is not quite literally, but almost, unkillable.

 

 

 

Sorry I definitely wasn't clear about what qualities the repulsor vs. leviathan have. I guess we'll see, it hasn't been very long since the codex or supplement have been released, but certainly discussions of "the most competitive" units haven't mentioned razorbacks at all. I won't claim that in and of itself ends the argument, of course.

 

The razorbacks have more wounds in total, but it's still much easier to kill them. Not claiming to be an expert at the game or the faction, but to me it seems pretty straightforward that razorbacks aren't even in the same league as the other two. Time will tell! As will personal preference and meta.

 

Razorbacks have definitely been mentioned in the IH forum as being solid workhorses with Calculated Fury. I'm not saying that they're powerhouse units, but their value in a competitive sense has absolutely been proven over the past couple of years, and in their current state they're still definitely a good unit. With Iron Hands bonuses on top, they'll be one of the best variations that Marines can field unless Salamander and Imperial Fists bring some incredible abilities to the table.

 

The point I was making earlier, although in a somewhat roundabout way, is that the Razorback is a good gun platform and it functions as a versatile support unit. It shields its cargo (both physically on the table, and figuratively when they're being transported); it provides a way to shut down overwatch (by charging before relatively squishy infantry); it adds armour saturation to your list (do you shoot at the Leviathan or the Razorbacks? One's killing you hard, but the others have ObSec units inside); and it's pretty resilient and independent, as all things Iron Hands are.

 

Three Razorbacks with Tacticals inside will set one back about 500pts total, but that's a good basis for a Battalion, brings good firepower, resilience and mobility to a list, as well as keeping one from putting too much in a deathball (and the Razorbacks can start deployed near the Ironstone for anti-Alpha Strike resilience, if needed/wanted).

[Khornestar]

Some fodder for discussion re: durability of IH vehicles:

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-iron-hands-vehicles/

[faithonwings]

Some fodder for discussion re: durability of IH vehicles:

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-iron-hands-vehicles/

 

ROFL.... this artikel was written with amasing sence of humor... conclusion, if you want to kill a Leviathan... bring a freaking warlord titan!! 

[Lemondish]

They shouldn't be nerfed as they aren't overpowered when used by other chapters.

 

Maybe limit the stratagems that can be used on them.

 

The nerf I imagine will come in the form of the Relic keyword. 

 

But I honestly wouldn't really care one bit if that giant block of ugly resin is nerfed. Down with FW! Down with the Levi!

 

As far as the decision between Levi and Repulsor, the answer is just as Ish said - both. 

 

But if you only want one, do the Levi. Why? Well just check out how resilient you can make this over on Goonhammer: https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-iron-hands-vehicles/

 

The conclusion:

 

"It turns out that your best bet for slaughtering the Relic Leviathan is a Warlord Titan. 6,000 points will get you an array of city-destroying firepower that, 13% of the time, still won’t kill this  14-wound walker."

[FinkleLord]

 

Some fodder for discussion re: durability of IH vehicles:

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-iron-hands-vehicles/

 

ROFL.... this artikel was written with amasing sence of humor... conclusion, if you want to kill a Leviathan... bring a freaking warlord titan!! 

 

 

Over the weekend I had a 1000 point tournament that allowed the new supplement. Game one I faced a UM list with Calgar and and Executioner. Turn one the Executioner turned its guns toward my Leviathan and had the Irontonse plus Duty Eternal up. Through everything I only lost one wound.

 

Ended up going 2-1 that tournament and losing the final round to another Iron Hands player. I really sense a change in the Ironstone or Duty Eternal. 

[DarthWaffle]

I love the Leviathan model. Might try and squeeze two in and just one Executioner and a Thunderfire in two different battalions. Personally, I think its just plain awesome that Iron Hands got so much love this go around. 

 

 

Some fodder for discussion re: durability of IH vehicles:

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-iron-hands-vehicles/

 

I think that Goonhammer article also concluded what the likely fix GW will Ironstone, which makes sense. Should help balance things out! 
 

[Ishagu]

Leviathan and character Dreads are causing the problems, and only with this chapter. Edited September 25, 2019 by Ishagu

[faithonwings]

@ FinkleLord

 

Can you remember wat the other IH player brought?

 

Edit, quoted the wrong person first time.

Edited September 26, 2019 by faithonwings

[mertbl]

I could see the Ironstone turning into 1 unit within 6. Edited September 26, 2019 by mertbl

[Son of Sacrifice]

The leviathan is hands down my favorite unit, I hope it doesn't get the nerf bat. I only run one storm cannon on mine, I find the double build to be entering into dick move territory.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Old lore for the Chapter was that a Dreadnought could only carry one gun because the second arm had to have a literal iron hand. When I get my Leviathan, it'll have a fist and a gun.

[FinkleLord]

@ FinkleLord

 

Can you remember wat the other IH player brought?

 

Edit, quoted the wrong person first time.

 

Something along the lines of 

 

Techmarine

Primaris Lieutenant

Intercessors 

Intercessors 

Intecessors

Leviathan - Stormcannons

Mortis Contemtpor - Lascannons

Redemptor Dreadnought  

 

I lost due to both our Leviathans chest bumping in the middle of the table and he got a Intercessor unit on my backfield objective and I couldn't shake him off of. 

[RandomMarine]

Through successor chapter shenanigans you can take Cullen the risen as a HQ and give him the 5+++ warlord trait or merciless logic and watch him devastate, and he'll avoid the inevitable nerf to the relic keyword

[CCE1981]

I think the Ironstone needs two nerfs. One it shouldn’t work with Relics or Characters. Two it should only work with one vehicle, chose the vehicle once it has been declared as a target of an attack.

[quasistellar]

Meh I really do think the Levi needs adjusted. It's always been really good, but surrounded by trash support. It's escaped nerfs due to the relic tax and marine screening being really bad.

 

Now that screening units are better and the relic tax isn't really a tax due to actual worthwhile heavy supports, it's gotta get nerfed. Definitely needs its invuln reduced or stormcannon firepower decreased or stormcannon price increased. Possibly a sprinkle of all 3.

 

Just had an interesting thought: Maybe something like if the Leviathan has two ranged weapons, its invuln goes from 4 to 5 due to the power requirements. I've always liked the idea of this monstrous dread lumbering at you with short ranged or melee weapons and it just won't die.

[Kallas]

I think the Stormcannon could take a price increase. Make it an inverse Lightning Claw: cheaper for one (keep it at current cost) and maybe an extra 15-20pts for a pair, so that the full Dakka load out is less appealing.

[Gederas]

Meh I really do think the Levi needs adjusted. It's always been really good, but surrounded by trash support. It's escaped nerfs due to the relic tax and marine screening being really bad.

 

Now that screening units are better and the relic tax isn't really a tax due to actual worthwhile heavy supports, it's gotta get nerfed. Definitely needs its invuln reduced or stormcannon firepower decreased or stormcannon price increased. Possibly a sprinkle of all 3.

 

Just had an interesting thought: Maybe something like if the Leviathan has two ranged weapons, its invuln goes from 4 to 5 due to the power requirements. I've always liked the idea of this monstrous dread lumbering at you with short ranged or melee weapons and it just won't die.

The Leviathan is actually perfectly balanced points-wise and rules-wise.

 

The Iron Hands rules and stratagems are what broke it.

 

So if the Leviathan (and all the FW Dreads) gets nerfed, blame the Iron Hands. Just like Blood Angels and the Fly changes, Deep-strike changes, and Thunder Hammer points increase.