Relic Leviathan or Repulsor executioner

[Kallas]

The Leviathan is actually perfectly balanced points-wise and rules-wise.

 

The Iron Hands rules and stratagems are what broke it.

 

So if the Leviathan (and all the FW Dreads) gets nerfed, blame the Iron Hands. Just like Blood Angels and the Fly changes, Deep-strike changes, and Thunder Hammer points increase.

 

The Leviathan with Dual Stormcannons has been a well establish, competitive Marine choice since the start of 8th, basically. It is very optimised: it shoots well, it was already pretty tough at 14W T8 2+/4++. While Iron Hands absolutely make it incredibly powerful (almost certainly too powerful with the full power up potential), it is still a very potent unit outside of IH.

 

Dual Stormcannons are absolutely a relatively common sight in Marine lists (depending on access to FW/money in general). This isn't a new phenomenon, and it's certainly not powerful only with IH.

[Gederas]

The Leviathan is actually perfectly balanced points-wise and rules-wise.

 

The Iron Hands rules and stratagems are what broke it.

 

So if the Leviathan (and all the FW Dreads) gets nerfed, blame the Iron Hands. Just like Blood Angels and the Fly changes, Deep-strike changes, and Thunder Hammer points increase.

The Leviathan with Dual Stormcannons has been a well establish, competitive Marine choice since the start of 8th, basically. It is very optimised: it shoots well, it was already pretty tough at 14W T8 2+/4++. While Iron Hands absolutely make it incredibly powerful (almost certainly too powerful with the full power up potential), it is still a very potent unit outside of IH.

 

Dual Stormcannons are absolutely a relatively common sight in Marine lists (depending on access to FW/money in general). This isn't a new phenomenon, and it's certainly not powerful only with IH.

You do realize I'm not arguing against it's effectiveness, right?

 

You see the Leviathan all the time because in terms of Points:Effectiveness, the Leviathan with dual Storm Cannon Arrays is one of the best choices. That's not because it's OP, but because up until now, almost all marine options for that were trash. Either too expensive, or didn't have good enough returns.

 

And now, GW has buffed the rest of the Marine line so it's not the sole good choice. And then the Iron Hands made one of the few units that was decent into flat-out busted territory.

 

When you take something decent, and then pile on buffs to it, then what happens? Oh right, this. This is what happens.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Gederas

[Iron Father Ferrum]

If you price the Levi to balance it with us, it becomes overpriced for everyone else.

 

GW is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. So which is it going to be?

[RandomMarine]

Storm cannon goes down to heavy8 and up in points by 15,make relic/hellforged units not benefit from strats. I think this would fix the leviathan and various other combos that have yet to come up

[Lemondish]

If you price the Levi to balance it with us, it becomes overpriced for everyone else.

 

GW is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. So which is it going to be?

Do other Chapters lose a ton if the relic keyword can't be the target of Stratagems? Edited September 27, 2019 by Lemondish

[Kallas]

 

If you price the Levi to balance it with us, it becomes overpriced for everyone else.

 

GW is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. So which is it going to be?

Do other Chapters lose a ton if the relic keyword can't be the target of Stratagems?

 

That is probably the simplest, easiest, least impactful fix. It does cause collateral damage to other Relic units, that might not be nearly so powerful, but even then it's likely not that big of a deal (I can't think of any particular combos that would be super worried).

[faithonwings]

 

 

 

If you price the Levi to balance it with us, it becomes overpriced for everyone else.

 

GW is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. So which is it going to be?

Do other Chapters lose a ton if the relic keyword can't be the target of Stratagems?

That is probably the simplest, easiest, least impactful fix. It does cause collateral damage to other Relic units, that might not be nearly so powerful, but even then it's likely not that big of a deal (I can't think of any particular combos that would be super worried).

This would fix a lot. But with the relic, would it be enough? It still would be very hard to kill and IH can eassily heal it 8-9 wounds a turn.

[CCE1981]

Just extend it, repairs, and stratagems and relics don’t affect Relics units, they require to much attention to be affected in the middle of Battle. I will be sad that I could no longer give my Leviathan +1 toughness, but it will still do what I buy it for marvelously. Healing only a d3 from a psychic power should tone the Leviathan tremendously.

[autek mor]

hopefully GW give allow at least a few more non marine codexes to come about before inflicting any nerfs. if iron hands start stomping out the competition with 1st place finishes left and right for half a year or more then yeah perhaps consider some adjustments for the leviathan. most of the knee jerk reactions have come from what the iron hands can potentially do with certain units. the landraider achilles might get more play if the leviathan gets a price hike.

Edited September 28, 2019 by autek mor

[quasistellar]

Tbh even with the unkillable leviathan I’m not convinced Iron Hands are too strong. I guess maybe if you ONLY play kill points, but seriously who even does that anymore ?

[faithonwings]

Tbh even with the unkillable leviathan I’m not convinced Iron Hands are too strong. I guess maybe if you ONLY play kill points, but seriously who even does that anymore ?

It's very hard to score objectives if most of the army is dead. Levi's are great at clearing objectives. I had so many times that mine flamed a bunch of scouts on the center of the field, shot a primaris intercessors unit of an objectives ussing the second stormcannon to clear another. And there is very little you can do about it.

Edited September 29, 2019 by faithonwings

[Khornestar]

For what it's worth, avoiding line of sight prevents those units from being shot at. Even if not, a leviathan shooting those units to death seems pretty reasonable.

[Ishagu]

Over 5 turns a Leviathan will fire 100 times hitting on 2s,re rolling 1s.

 

Str7 AP-3 2Damage

 

It can move 8" a turn also.

 

You think you can just ignore it and score objectives to your heart's content?

Edited September 29, 2019 by Ishagu

[quasistellar]

Oh I'm not saying the Leviathan isn't too strong. I believe it is and would like to see it (or the combo somehow) nerfed.

 

I think the meta will have to adapt in the meantime. Chaff clearing, charging from out of LOS, and ignoring overwatch are all going to be critical until GW addresses this. A Levi can't shoot a unit in combat. I realize this is easier said than done and isn't easy for several armies. It's going to require a change of tactics for sure for many people.

[chapter master 454]

What about a LOT of assault centurions? Use Raven Guard to help get them up the board (granted, the majority will land in turn 2) but I mean...it still is a hard nut to crack.

 

Possible options:

First I like the Relic idea. Makes sense really.

 

Secondly, I would maybe tweak the Stormcannon to being AP1 instead of 2.

 

That and I would like to see the ironstone changed to being techmarines only. That or maybe allude to the lore they have of it needing to charge up, maybe making it a battle round 2 and onwards effect (though I would think at that point it would be largely pointless).

[faithonwings]

Over 5 turns a Leviathan will fire 100 times hitting on 2s,re rolling 1s.

 

Str7 AP-3 2Damage

 

It can move 8" a turn also.

 

You think you can just ignore it and score objectives to your heart's content?

Exacly my point. You can chaff bump it, mortal wound spam it, or maybe even shoot it to death, ignoring it is just not an option i.m.o.