Iron Hands Weaknesses

[sultansean]

I agree with melta.  Everything I see nowadays from the big name players and "professionals" is how Iron Hands are clearly the best by a large margin.  Personally I've seen one game with someone trying out the rules locally and they curp stomped an imperial knights/gurad list.  I know it's one game and the Iron Hands player went first, but that game pretty much put all my fears about Iron Hands on display.

 

 

 

Sorry, I don't have the exact lists, but the IH had a proxy for the Forge father, a Levi, executioners x 2, stalker intercessors, etc.  The knight was a castellan.  I know that a single game really proves nothing, just a bit of food for though.  I was playing a game with my ultras on a different table, so that is just what I gleaned from being close by.  

 

Also, I mean, I could put together a list as well, but as melta said, just because it doesn't auto stomp eldar flier spam does not mean it's not op in general.

 

 

So I was coming here to say that I though the Castellan might be an answer to Iron Hands. I would have thought with it's long range and a 4++ it could survive turn one and then pick up an executioner a turn even with the defensive buffs. The Volcano lance is just super killy and Cawl's wrath is still pushing 2 damage a shot.

 

In terms of strong Iron Hands lists, I don't think the astraues is going to be the way to go. A couple Executionr/Repulsor, a Leviathan and a character Dred with the forgefather and a captain/ CM. Then some troops and land speeders for CP, screening and objectives. Battlescribe is wigging out on me or I would make a list.   

 

 

  

 

 

[Lord Blackwood]

I  want something to punch mortarion ! 
I also have all three of my leviathans modeled with atleast one close combat weapon , because they  stem from my HH  projects   

I know he likes to bring 2 of the mortars , he will likely bring his terminators , a few squads of plague marines  with an assortment of special weapons , the stinky flamer guy , a psyker , and more than  likely  zombies to screen with  Mortarion  

[emperorpants]

 

I agree with melta.  Everything I see nowadays from the big name players and "professionals" is how Iron Hands are clearly the best by a large margin.  Personally I've seen one game with someone trying out the rules locally and they curp stomped an imperial knights/gurad list.  I know it's one game and the Iron Hands player went first, but that game pretty much put all my fears about Iron Hands on display.

 

 

 

Sorry, I don't have the exact lists, but the IH had a proxy for the Forge father, a Levi, executioners x 2, stalker intercessors, etc.  The knight was a castellan.  I know that a single game really proves nothing, just a bit of food for though.  I was playing a game with my ultras on a different table, so that is just what I gleaned from being close by.  

 

Also, I mean, I could put together a list as well, but as melta said, just because it doesn't auto stomp eldar flier spam does not mean it's not op in general.

 

 

So I was coming here to say that I though the Castellan might be an answer to Iron Hands. I would have thought with it's long range and a 4++ it could survive turn one and then pick up an executioner a turn even with the defensive buffs. The Volcano lance is just super killy and Cawl's wrath is still pushing 2 damage a shot.

 

In terms of strong Iron Hands lists, I don't think the astraues is going to be the way to go. A couple Executionr/Repulsor, a Leviathan and a character Dred with the forgefather and a captain/ CM. Then some troops and land speeders for CP, screening and objectives. Battlescribe is wigging out on me or I would make a list.   

 

 

  

 

 

 

Yeah, I'm not sure how exactly it shook out since I was playing a game myself, but I'm assuming the castellan player had some bad invuln rolls.  I think it did manage to kill a executioner before it died, but die it did.  The levi was apparently a force of absolute soul crushing destruction I was told.

Edited September 18, 2019 by emperorpants

[emperorpants]

I  want something to punch mortarion ! 

I also have all three of my leviathans modeled with atleast one close combat weapon , because they  stem from my HH  projects   

 

I know he likes to bring 2 of the mortars , he will likely bring his terminators , a few squads of plague marines  with an assortment of special weapons , the stinky flamer guy , a psyker , and more than  likely  zombies to screen with  Mortarion  

Hmm.  Well, even with just one storm cannon array your levi is likely going to wreck shop.  I assume when you say you want to punch mortarion you mean that you want to punch him if he closes into melee and that you aren't running your levi right up to that psychic and melee monster?  Really, morty should be dead before he gets close, if things go well.  Cuz the levi wrecking shop is really dependent upon him not immediately getting into melee with a demon primarch. 

 

His termies will get pasted by your dread's storm cannons and the hellblasters.  Or the dakka dread.  Or non laser destroyer guns on the executioner.  Zombies can also get plastered by the executioner or the dakka dread.  Deploy far away if you can and blast him as he comes to your death ball.  Your executioner has 72 inch range on it's laser destroyer, so use it and blast mortarion and the mortars. 

 

Your deathball will be hard for him to deal with.  The other elements of your army will be able to contribute where they can while grabbing objectives.  Honestly, if played well, you likely have a large advantage imo. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by emperorpants

[sultansean]

Iron Hands went 4-1 at the Attack X ITC Major tournament. This is pre supplement, just codex. 

 

He had a battalion with scouts, some rapier carriers, 2 predators, whirlwind, sicarian punisher, fire raptor, leviathan, contemptor and supporting characters. He lost to GSC in the final game, when his Scarian got wrapped. 

[emperorpants]

Iron Hands went 4-1 at the Attack X ITC Major tournament. This is pre supplement, just codex. 

 

He had a battalion with scouts, some rapier carriers, 2 predators, whirlwind, sicarian punisher, fire raptor, leviathan, contemptor and supporting characters. He lost to GSC in the final game, when his Scarian got wrapped. 

That's a bit concerning.  I know that Ultras won a big event, but that was with the supplement.  Hmm.

[chapter master 454]

 

Iron Hands went 4-1 at the Attack X ITC Major tournament. This is pre supplement, just codex. 

 

He had a battalion with scouts, some rapier carriers, 2 predators, whirlwind, sicarian punisher, fire raptor, leviathan, contemptor and supporting characters. He lost to GSC in the final game, when his Scarian got wrapped. 

That's a bit concerning.  I know that Ultras won a big event, but that was with the supplement.  Hmm.

 

 

To be fair, the Iron Hands trait is one of the most appealing things about them imo. I don't even mean the 6+++ but the overwatch on 5+ is one of the biggest game changers when it comes to gunlines worst match-up, fast melee. Tau show how good it is and even my friend has had it work wonders for him (taking down a trygon that just popped up from deep strike, opponent underestimated the overwatch of 3 riptides next to each other all with HBCs and he has even had a game where it nailed mortarion with it too).

If anything, it is my main consideration right now with designing lists using iron hands stuff really, the 6+++ is just worse overall than taking stealthy as a successor trait BUT having 5+ on overwatch and even being comped a little with the 6+++ makes match-ups against chargers much better.

 

And look at that list, it is a lot of shooting and I wager the GSC player may of been a little lucky on some rolls here and there. Oh and once the supplement does come out I expect the 4+ overwatch stratagem to be god tier in those sort of match-ups (making choosing your charge target very important). It would be a sole reason to bring a captain so he can be a chapter master despite the super doctrine, if only for making your overwatch that much more scary.

[Happy-inquisitor]

In fairness I thought I would put together what I think may turn out to be the strongest of the Iron Hands options into a list - at http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358570-iron-hands-flyer-list/

 

The way that this makes use of the unique Iron Hands traits is:

1. durability on the flyers first turn to avoid being alpha-struck so they get the alpha-strike (a real issue in flyer spam mirror matches)

2. the option to make the heavy hitting ground forces all characters and hence hard for shooting armies to target 

 

I was surprised when I did the maths on the Eldar Flyer list getting the jump on this list - on average all 8 flyers in that LGT winning list putting all their firepower into the Strormhawks do a total of 8 wounds to one Stormhawk - which can then limp over to the 2nd techmarine near the thunderfire to get repaired back up to top tier. the stacked durability buffs of iron hands on top of hard to hit work wonders (assuming you do not let the flyers be the nearest model to the Phoenix flyers, which you will not). FWIW the maths the other way round is brutal, if the Iron Hands flyers go first and can get within 12" of the Eldar flyers with their 60" move the Stormhawks alone will average just over 24 damage to the Crimson Hunters[1]. Essentially this matchup should be unwinnable for the Eldar Flyer spam player whoever goes first.

 

I did leave a lot more melee punch in there then some other lists i am seeing but I think the ability to go out and bully the mid-table is immensely valuable in scoring points in all sorts of missions. Characters have good tricks in combat and especially their ability to make heroic intervention to shut down a lot of pile-in tricks before your opponent has a chance to do them.

 

As I note on the list there are all sorts of little compromises in there due to points constraints. There is not really enough sniper defence. Some infiltrators to shut down GSC would have been fantastic. There are nothing like as many scoring bodies as I would like and if you do go the characters + chapter master route the list is going to be starved for CP (but will have lots of rerolls and lots of tricks without CP so I think that is not too awful). I would say the list has a number of small weaknesses rather than one huge single weakness.

 

It will be interesting to see if the Autumn FAQ leaves flyer spam lists viable, if it does I do think something like this is going to be causing a lot of angst in competitive 40K.

 

[1] In reality there is a game of teasing out the reflexes stratagem on the Eldar flyers and if the IH player does that all wrong you might not get quite so much damage output from the Stormhawks - but in that case your lascannons and Stormtalons are hitting better so it's not a disaster. Just let that one Eldar flyer live and kill as many of the others as you can.

 

 

 

[MeltaRange]

 

I was surprised when I did the maths on the Eldar Flyer list getting the jump on this list - on average all 8 flyers in that LGT winning list putting all their firepower into the Strormhawks do a total of 8 wounds to one Stormhawk - which can then limp over to the 2nd techmarine near the thunderfire to get repaired back up to top tier. the stacked durability buffs of iron hands on top of hard to hit work wonders (assuming you do not let the flyers be the nearest model to the Phoenix flyers, which you will not). FWIW the maths the other way round is brutal, if the Iron Hands flyers go first and can get within 12" of the Eldar flyers with their 60" move the Stormhawks alone will average just over 24 damage to the Crimson Hunters[1]. Essentially this matchup should be unwinnable for the Eldar Flyer spam player whoever goes first.

 

 

Combine this with the anecdotes in the other "repulsor vs leviathan" thread...Iron Hands are totally fine, right?

[emperorpants]

In fairness I thought I would put together what I think may turn out to be the strongest of the Iron Hands options into a list - at http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358570-iron-hands-flyer-list/

 

The way that this makes use of the unique Iron Hands traits is:

1. durability on the flyers first turn to avoid being alpha-struck so they get the alpha-strike (a real issue in flyer spam mirror matches)

2. the option to make the heavy hitting ground forces all characters and hence hard for shooting armies to target 

 

I was surprised when I did the maths on the Eldar Flyer list getting the jump on this list - on average all 8 flyers in that LGT winning list putting all their firepower into the Strormhawks do a total of 8 wounds to one Stormhawk - which can then limp over to the 2nd techmarine near the thunderfire to get repaired back up to top tier. the stacked durability buffs of iron hands on top of hard to hit work wonders (assuming you do not let the flyers be the nearest model to the Phoenix flyers, which you will not). FWIW the maths the other way round is brutal, if the Iron Hands flyers go first and can get within 12" of the Eldar flyers with their 60" move the Stormhawks alone will average just over 24 damage to the Crimson Hunters[1]. Essentially this matchup should be unwinnable for the Eldar Flyer spam player whoever goes first.

 

I did leave a lot more melee punch in there then some other lists i am seeing but I think the ability to go out and bully the mid-table is immensely valuable in scoring points in all sorts of missions. Characters have good tricks in combat and especially their ability to make heroic intervention to shut down a lot of pile-in tricks before your opponent has a chance to do them.

 

As I note on the list there are all sorts of little compromises in there due to points constraints. There is not really enough sniper defence. Some infiltrators to shut down GSC would have been fantastic. There are nothing like as many scoring bodies as I would like and if you do go the characters + chapter master route the list is going to be starved for CP (but will have lots of rerolls and lots of tricks without CP so I think that is not too awful). I would say the list has a number of small weaknesses rather than one huge single weakness.

 

It will be interesting to see if the Autumn FAQ leaves flyer spam lists viable, if it does I do think something like this is going to be causing a lot of angst in competitive 40K.

 

[1] In reality there is a game of teasing out the reflexes stratagem on the Eldar flyers and if the IH player does that all wrong you might not get quite so much damage output from the Stormhawks - but in that case your lascannons and Stormtalons are hitting better so it's not a disaster. Just let that one Eldar flyer live and kill as many of the others as you can.

Good work on the list!  I like it.

[chapter master 454]

I have one list that does try to get somewhere but the main weakness is it uses tanks, mainly 2 land raiders and 2 predators but it almost feels like a tank version of a death ball.

 

2 Battalions, 1 supreme HQ detachment

 

2 Librarians (one has reforge and "shoot better tank", the other has Psysteel armour and whatever else you want really)

2 Techmarines (one is the warlord with dataspike and better heal trait, other has the iron stone)

1 Chapter Master

2 Lieutenants

 

4 squads of intercessors, bring whatever rifle you want but with iron hands taking the stalkers is decent, all min size

4 squads of tacticals, all min size, 2 have heavy bolters and 2 have missile launchers

 

2 Dakka Predators

2 Land raider phobos (with multi-meltas)

 

 

Basic formation is to build a box around your characters (namely the iron stone) with the tanks as to prevent not just close attempts but also LoS (as the tanks do well at that), the tacticals take cover in the land raiders along with ancillary supports (the spare lieutenant, the librarians if denying isn't a must) and the intercessors just do whatever you need them to do (bubble up, stand on easy objectives early, make cups of tea, whatever they are just extra bodies to help out).

 

As far as I can tell, I believe even the mega spam list would struggle to crack a land raider open with any real effect (taking a majority of their firepower I believe) leaving me with still another land raider and the 2 preds plus infantry support. If they don't kill it however I can heal up to possibly 11 wounds on a land raider with the librarian and techmarine.

 

To be honest, this list relies on being able to tank first turn as a core design choice it can always have a crack back. Again, I am playing around and I love land raiders so take it as you will, likely something better out there but not sure. It is a 2k list so not sure if I overstepped points but it is what I play at so was what I was comfortable with.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

 

I was surprised when I did the maths on the Eldar Flyer list getting the jump on this list - on average all 8 flyers in that LGT winning list putting all their firepower into the Strormhawks do a total of 8 wounds to one Stormhawk - which can then limp over to the 2nd techmarine near the thunderfire to get repaired back up to top tier. the stacked durability buffs of iron hands on top of hard to hit work wonders (assuming you do not let the flyers be the nearest model to the Phoenix flyers, which you will not). FWIW the maths the other way round is brutal, if the Iron Hands flyers go first and can get within 12" of the Eldar flyers with their 60" move the Stormhawks alone will average just over 24 damage to the Crimson Hunters[1]. Essentially this matchup should be unwinnable for the Eldar Flyer spam player whoever goes first.

 

 

Combine this with the anecdotes in the other "repulsor vs leviathan" thread...Iron Hands are totally fine, right?

 

 

Flyer Spam is probably not totally fine. It just looks like Iron Hands do it even better than Eldar. Only time will tell whether GW decide to limit flyer spam further with the autumn FAQ or maybe CA19.

 

In the meantime it may turn out to be another top tier list, all top tier lists tend to be fairly unreasonable one way or another that is why they are top tier. It's not like plaguebearer spam is actually reasonable to play against. The game is not broken, arguably the current tournament meta is broken but not the game. Also arguably breaking the meta occasionally is good for the wider game - it prevents it from getting static.

 

As I said, I was acutely aware while trying to write the list that it has weaknesses and i could not find ways to patch those weaknesses without running out of points elsewhere. That is the nature of list building generally and Marines are still not a cheap faction to build lists with. 

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

 

 

 

Combine this with the anecdotes in the other "repulsor vs leviathan" thread...Iron Hands are totally fine, right?

 

 

Now that I have had time to read through the other thread and think about it:- the Leviathan may be too good with all the IH buffs but is *definitely* too good for the existing meta and approach to killing hard targets. The most common way to try to kill hard targets in the current meta is to torrent them down with volume shooting weapons with D2 or D3 - the Ironstone possibly backed up by the standard marine stratagem to halve damage renders that almost useless. 

 

What is unclear in my mind is whether a new meta with a different choice of weapons can work. What I think is interesting is that unlike the Castellan meta the IH Leviathans are *not* effective in the mirror match because their best weapons is crippled by the Ironstone on an opposing force. The castellan meta was overwhelming because the best counter to a castellan list was another castellan list - that is very much not the case with the IH Leviathan list.

 

I am definitely retaining an open mind to the idea that the Leviathan in particular (and other FW dreads) might be a problem in need of fixing. The Leviathan was already seriously good and IMO only really held back by being in an underpowered faction - which SM most definitely are not any more.

[chapter master 454]

 

 

 

 

 

Combine this with the anecdotes in the other "repulsor vs leviathan" thread...Iron Hands are totally fine, right?

 

 

Now that I have had time to read through the other thread and think about it:- the Leviathan may be too good with all the IH buffs but is *definitely* too good for the existing meta and approach to killing hard targets. The most common way to try to kill hard targets in the current meta is to torrent them down with volume shooting weapons with D2 or D3 - the Ironstone possibly backed up by the standard marine stratagem to halve damage renders that almost useless. 

 

What is unclear in my mind is whether a new meta with a different choice of weapons can work. What I think is interesting is that unlike the Castellan meta the IH Leviathans are *not* effective in the mirror match because their best weapons is crippled by the Ironstone on an opposing force. The castellan meta was overwhelming because the best counter to a castellan list was another castellan list - that is very much not the case with the IH Leviathan list.

 

I am definitely retaining an open mind to the idea that the Leviathan in particular (and other FW dreads) might be a problem in need of fixing. The Leviathan was already seriously good and IMO only really held back by being in an underpowered faction - which SM most definitely are not any more.

 

 

The mirror match issue is something that could sink the list overall if that is the case. If it counters even itself there could be interesting results from that. Will each list bring its own attempt at countering the dread or will they opt to just bash heads as the best option?

I remember the new hotness once in a card game having a terrible tournament result because it countered itself hard. I wouldn't think the same will happen here but maybe...just wondering, would it be advantageous in the mirror match to drop doctrines and get a vindicare assassin in to help snipe the iron stone? It does remove a lot of benefit I suppose but the other option is to build in eliminators which wouldn't be that effective imo (they aren't bad but they aren't sniping any ironstone holder effectively). The Vindicare could likely get you a possible turn 1 kill on the Ironstone (not high chance but it is there to high roll) and a near certain kill on turn 2, thus removing their damage reduction. However you have surrendered your super doctrine and doctrines for this so...not exactly the best option but it does exist at least.

 

That or will be see a return of a castellan list as a counter? I mean, last I check Knights aren't bad and if anyone could get a big target across the board to punch you in the face it would be knights. Just their weakness is flyers being unchargable so Gallant spam naturally gets culled by that (though I suppose they go for boots victory). The avenger gatling cannon is off the table and rapid fire battle cannon gets gimped hard (damage ranging from 1-2 instead of 1-3). Thermals, Thundercoil and Volcano Lance are all they really have left to use that could have reasonable effect. I mean, any volcano lance hits that get through will cause serious damage (3d3 is no joke) and if they go taranis for the improved thermal that's melta at all ranges so that will regularly get damage through. Just a question of what do you field with it since the castellan did take a points hit (unwarranted imo after the invulnerable save game-wide nerf).

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Combine this with the anecdotes in the other "repulsor vs leviathan" thread...Iron Hands are totally fine, right?

 

 

Now that I have had time to read through the other thread and think about it:- the Leviathan may be too good with all the IH buffs but is *definitely* too good for the existing meta and approach to killing hard targets. The most common way to try to kill hard targets in the current meta is to torrent them down with volume shooting weapons with D2 or D3 - the Ironstone possibly backed up by the standard marine stratagem to halve damage renders that almost useless. 

 

What is unclear in my mind is whether a new meta with a different choice of weapons can work. What I think is interesting is that unlike the Castellan meta the IH Leviathans are *not* effective in the mirror match because their best weapons is crippled by the Ironstone on an opposing force. The castellan meta was overwhelming because the best counter to a castellan list was another castellan list - that is very much not the case with the IH Leviathan list.

 

I am definitely retaining an open mind to the idea that the Leviathan in particular (and other FW dreads) might be a problem in need of fixing. The Leviathan was already seriously good and IMO only really held back by being in an underpowered faction - which SM most definitely are not any more.

 

 

The mirror match issue is something that could sink the list overall if that is the case. If it counters even itself there could be interesting results from that. Will each list bring its own attempt at countering the dread or will they opt to just bash heads as the best option?

I remember the new hotness once in a card game having a terrible tournament result because it countered itself hard. I wouldn't think the same will happen here but maybe...just wondering, would it be advantageous in the mirror match to drop doctrines and get a vindicare assassin in to help snipe the iron stone? It does remove a lot of benefit I suppose but the other option is to build in eliminators which wouldn't be that effective imo (they aren't bad but they aren't sniping any ironstone holder effectively). The Vindicare could likely get you a possible turn 1 kill on the Ironstone (not high chance but it is there to high roll) and a near certain kill on turn 2, thus removing their damage reduction. However you have surrendered your super doctrine and doctrines for this so...not exactly the best option but it does exist at least.

 

 

 

 

Of the current top lists I think Flyer Spam already counters the Leviathan deathstar, with its mediocre mobility and range it can be denied a shooting phase by any opponent that can stay more than 32" away. Flyer spam can do that pretty easily and just kill the rest of the IH list - at most 900 points and anyone who has played against flyer spam knows that 900 points of marines don't last long.

 

The only way to get any shooting phase at all is to break up the deathstar to cover more of the table but that weakens the individual units and when Duty Eternal gets Vected the whole thing starts to fall apart.

 

My concern is that it roflstomps the sort of semi-competitive list and player that actually make up the vast bulk of any tournament and that will create feel bad experiences. Other than getting lucky enough to avoid bad matchups I think it is inherently a 4-1 sort of a list. 

[Kallas]

Of the current top lists I think Flyer Spam already counters the Leviathan deathstar, with its mediocre mobility and range it can be denied a shooting phase by any opponent that can stay more than 32" away. Flyer spam can do that pretty easily and just kill the rest of the IH list - at most 900 points and anyone who has played against flyer spam knows that 900 points of marines don't last long.

 

The only way to get any shooting phase at all is to break up the deathstar to cover more of the table but that weakens the individual units and when Duty Eternal gets Vected the whole thing starts to fall apart.

 

My concern is that it roflstomps the sort of semi-competitive list and player that actually make up the vast bulk of any tournament and that will create feel bad experiences. Other than getting lucky enough to avoid bad matchups I think it is inherently a 4-1 sort of a list. 

 

I actually don't think the best IH list(s) will involve a huge blob around the Leviathan/Ironstone.

 

Been playing around with some stuff in Battlescribe, and I think this list will be pretty damn brutal:

Feirros

Lieutenant (Ironstone)

Librarian (for Repair/+1 to Hit powers)

 

1x 10 Stalker Intercessors

3x 6 Stalker Intercessors

 

Leviathan (2x Stormcannons, 2x HKMs)

Thunderfire Cannon

 

3x Stormhawks (Las-talons, Typhoons)

 

It's 1750 on the nose; at 2000 you can just slap in a bunch of Intercessors/Infiltrators for more bodies and/or anti-Deep Strike. The Stormhawks can sit in the Ironstone bubble if you go second for great resilience (against the Eldar Flyer Spam list, the Stormhawks are damn resilient as even Crimson Hunter Exarchs are hitting on 4s, and the Hawks get a 5++/6++ and have double wounds for brackets; and in return two of them should pretty reliably kill or cripple all three CHEs, if all three are active then almost definitely).

 

It's got mobile firepower in the Hawks, which are certainly no slouches even vs non-FLY targets; the Leviathan is immortal and can happily kill even Alaitoc Flyers with the buffs available; the Stalker Intercessors provide a decent amount of bodies (at 1750; at 2000 you can pack in about 14 more!); the TFC provides anti-Horde utility in Tremor Shells.

 

The only real downside is it only starts with 9CP (8 if you want a second Relic, which would probably be the CP Regen one, which would be useful anyway) but that's still plenty to have a decisive turn one and two, which will see the opponent's key units demolished in short order.

[emperorpants]

So, has anyone read the goonhammer article on iron hands vehicle durability?  Yeah, my fears really do seem to have been well founded.  In addition, every anecdote that has been shared, that I have seen, is of the iron hands CRUSHING people...I just hope the nerf hammer doesn't crush all chapters in the form of levi nerfs or point increases.

[Rodrick]

just BAN Leviathan, the truth is only UK and USA care,  if you live in the "rest of the world" is a pain order one, goddamn customs.

 

FW stuff is almost non-existent outside UK & USA imho 

 

maybe im wrong, dont know

[MajorNese]

just BAN Leviathan, the truth is only UK and USA care,  if you live in the "rest of the world" is a pain order one, goddamn customs.

 

FW stuff is almost non-existent outside UK & USA imho 

 

maybe im wrong, dont know

Well, that statement is rather far away from the truth.

 

Until FW started doing their "creative" currency conversion, FW was cheaper in Australia than GW as far as I've heard. They had a huge 30k community for a reason.

And from personal experience, ordering from Europe is just as uncomplicated as ordering from a local shop. At least until brexit happens, but we'll never know if/when that might be.

 

Everyone around has FW stuff, and even the OOP stuff is not really an issue in the Age of Google.

Edited September 24, 2019 by MajorNese

[TrawlingCleaner]

So, has anyone read the goonhammer article on iron hands vehicle durability? Yeah, my fears really do seem to have been well founded. In addition, every anecdote that has been shared, that I have seen, is of the iron hands CRUSHING people...I just hope the nerf hammer doesn't crush all chapters in the form of levi nerfs or point increases.

Remember when GSC or Drukhari came out and they crushed everyone? Sure they still can but they're totally counterable and had little to no nerfs. Give it time and people will find a way.

 

Additionally, arguably goonhammer and the like will show off the broken stuff as that gets more hits. Completely separate point to this thread though

[MajorNese]

Yeah, let's say a friend spammed leviathans (5 at 2k, pre-Rule of 3) with his IH...only to play them as UM at every tournament. It turned out that anything that can ignore overwatch can prevent these monsters from shooting if you're not UM, which is a clear weakness. Now everyone talks about having a single unkillable Leviathan, but both BA and RG have smash captains that can just jump in and lock it down for a turn without eating overwatch first. Anyone else will have to weather the overwatch - of the relic bearer next to the levi, not the levi itself, Pile In be praised.

 

I'm not saying IH levis are anywhere near weak, I've faced enough levis at once already to make a single one seem almost casual. Just the solution might not be trying to out-gun it, but do something less straight-forward to prevent it from working.

[emperorpants]

just BAN Leviathan, the truth is only UK and USA care,  if you live in the "rest of the world" is a pain order one, goddamn customs.

 

FW stuff is almost non-existent outside UK & USA imho 

 

maybe im wrong, dont know

That seems really unfair to people who like levis and who play with them.  

[emperorpants]

Yeah, let's say a friend spammed leviathans (5 at 2k, pre-Rule of 3) with his IH...only to play them as UM at every tournament. It turned out that anything that can ignore overwatch can prevent these monsters from shooting if you're not UM, which is a clear weakness. Now everyone talks about having a single unkillable Leviathan, but both BA and RG have smash captains that can just jump in and lock it down for a turn without eating overwatch first. Anyone else will have to weather the overwatch - of the relic bearer next to the levi, not the levi itself, Pile In be praised.

 

I'm not saying IH levis are anywhere near weak, I've faced enough levis at once already to make a single one seem almost casual. Just the solution might not be trying to out-gun it, but do something less straight-forward to prevent it from working.

In a situation such as that I would probably use the 1 cp strat to fall back and still shoot with the levi.

[Rodrick]

well i used to play magic the gathering, the ban hammer always struck hard, but in the end  , it was for the better imho

[Khornestar]

Not gonna argue the Leviathan isn't ridiculously survivable with the current combo, still not particularly worried about it in a tournament setting. Friendly games are another story. I'd still prefer to see the next year of codices before I freak out about anything, but that's a long time to get stomped by someone unconcerned with how much fun their opponent is having, so I get it from that point of view as well.