IH Eliminators

[THUNDERFISTS]

Unless it's just my perception, no one seems to be talking about Iron Hand Eliminators. Maybe it's because we're all excited about Dreadnoughts and vehicles being usable again, but these fellas should not go under the radar.

 

At 74pts with the Bolt Carbine on the Sergeant and two Bolt Rifles, with the Sergeant buffing two shots that hit on 2's rerolling 1's, wounding the vast amount of infantry characters on 2's with MWs on a 5+ and D3 damage. Get a couple units to fill out a cheap Spearhead and you'll project some serious threat to enemy characters without needing to be babysat by a Captain. 

 

They can screen better than Scouts, with an extra wound between them and a better save for the cost. They can also move without penalty as IH to get hiding characters easier, and of course flee from enemy chargers. Scout squad's biggest weakness is getting tri-pointed by a unit and "saving" that unit from getting shot. Eliminators at least make that a lot harder to pull off. 

 

Thoughts?

[Lemondish]

I think you're actually mathematically better off against almost every target to just bring 3 bolt sniper rifles given you're always guaranteed to have the re-roll 1s. Iirc, the sarge buff is only better when you have no source of any other reroll etc. Plus you save a few points.

 

I don't know if you'd want to use these to screen, though. They want to be up high so they can actually see the targets they're meant to hunt. Even though they can shoot through walls, you kind of want the higher damage if you're trying to actively engage enemy characters. Their mobility let's them re-position if needed, but if you have them in a solid position right from the beginning, their movement is irrelevant. 

 

But this is all just theory - have you had an opportunity to play with them yet?

[faithonwings]

I had, 2 squads high up a tower. My oppents characters where far out of range or T6 so no good targets there. I used them to chip of wounds of vehicles. They did that quite good actually

[MajorNese]

While not nearly as good as RG snipers, I guess these will work too.

Without penalty for moving, they can stay out of LoS (in case you go second) and move into position on your round. And with Dev doctrine, will wipe out any character without invul.

 

And forget the bolt carbine - mathematically it's better to use Guided Aim with 2 shots than unguided with 3 shots, but once a model dies, having twice the shots is simply better - you don't want to be stuck with the runaway carbine in that case, that thing doesn't pull its weight.

 

Using these guys to screen seems like a waste to me. Their 1+ save doesn't work in CC or when they walk around outside of cover, and their number of shots as well as cost don't exactly scream screening unit. Intercessors have been my favorite in that regard, especially the dice load of auto boltrifles should be more discouraging in overwatch, as well as being troops and considerably cheaper. What I do find useful is projecting a threat that makes your opponent keep his characters in spots they don't actually want to be, as well as using the good rounds to put MW/multiwound on vehicles if no better target is present.

[Dark Legionnare]

I have two squads on order. For their points, can't help but bring a squad of the rifles, and a squad of the fusils.  Hiding them while still be able to move into position and react without penalty is what I was planning on doing with them, lets them do good on turn 1 go first or not.

Use the former to pick off characters or other necessary "low wound" stuff, use the latter to plink some decent chunks off of various enemy vehicles.  I'm basically the only player in local group with a T8 vehicle (repulsor) so they should put in a bit more work in my shop that most folks might get out of them.

In a pinch, I feel like they'll be good 3W model killers too!  Aggressors, tyranid stuff, etc...

They're also not SO threatening that folks will look into killing them vs the big bad assault forces of Feirros alongside a redemptor and repulsor with plenty of Hellblaster and Intercessor backup.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Dark Legionnare

[THUNDERFISTS]

I definitely don't think the ability to completely deny a charge should be so overlooked. Bolt Carbine Sargeant can give Guided Aim out like candy and if he dies first, there's still two shots left   and indeed if someone is shooting a 1+ save unit instead of my Repulsors/Redemptors/Leviathan etc, I think I got off better in that exchange.

 

Remember that you don't have to put snipers on the highest peak possible, especially with their mobility in IHs. They can easily kite something scary - screening - while being on ground level. Granted I haven't played with them yet, that's what the topic is for discussing, but man it looks good on paper. 

[MajorNese]

I definitely don't think the ability to completely deny a charge should be so overlooked.

[...]

They can easily kite something scary - screening - while being on ground level. Granted I haven't played with them yet, that's what the topic is for discussing, but man it looks good on paper. 

To be honest, why take 24ppm snipers to put them in charge range, when there are considerably cheaper units to do that? And you won't be able to fool the same player twice - once they know the ability, they won't try a hopeless charge. That would leave denying charges and blocking access to lanes between terrain, where these guys have no cover, and are no more resilient than the much cheaper intercessors. If you really want to block charges, take Tarantulas - cheap, large base, a lot of shots for overwatch, and anything locked in CC with them can still be shot by the rest of your army, including said tarantula. As said elsewhere, that's where your opponent's awesome char suddenly gets the tarantula's twin HBs to the face and every spare bolter to the back, despite "saving himself" by entering CC with something that can't fall back.

 

I've used Eliminators to great effect the past few games - with S5, triggering MW on 5+ and wounding even T9 (FW superheavies) on a 4+, they can dish out a certain number of wounds onto any target. And your opponent will hug every bit of LoS blocking terrain so the eliminators can't fire with their best ammo, which leads to very limited movement. If your opponent hides his buff character in a corner, it won't be in optimal bubble range. If it hides in a transport, there is no buff at all. Throwing such a unit (and the damage they do over 4-5 turns) away for perhaps messing up a single charge just seems rather useless.

[Lord Blackwood]

I am considering grabbing a unit for the las fusils 

[Charlo]

While I'm sure that buffing two guns is better than shooting three, I think I'll always fire three. The potential damage is too good and it's a dice game afterall!

[MajorNese]

While I'm sure that buffing two guns is better than shooting three, I think I'll always fire three. The potential damage is too good and it's a dice game afterall!

We've done the math already.

 

TLDR: More dice means less average damage output in this case. Just use Guided Aim, it's better.

[Charlo]

Hmm the guided aim affects the MW? Didn't realize that... Not bad.

[MajorNese]

Yep, triggers on a wound roll of 6+, not unmodified 6. Which offsets the very few instances where unguided would have been slightly better by hit/wound.

 

It's a different matter for RG in tac doctrine (which does the same as Guided Aim), but that's rather irrelevant here.

[Dark Legionnare]

Yep, triggers on a wound roll of 6+, not unmodified 6. Which offsets the very few instances where unguided would have been slightly better by hit/wound.

 

It's a different matter for RG in tac doctrine (which does the same as Guided Aim), but that's rather irrelevant here.

That's good to know!  Will definitely keep that in mind, since I'd probably forget it on my own!

 

In the same vein, knowing how my statistics-denying level of repeated "1 into another 1" rerolls tend to work, I'll confirmation-bias the hell out of myself into always shooting 3 shots probably, but that's a good tidbit. Thanks for the info, man!