Have they "jumped the shark" with the Marine Dex(s) power?

[Vermintide]

 

 

We will have reached a state of transcendence where every army will be competitive in the ITC format, and there will be rejoicing in the streets.

 

 

Dude, I don't even want to be competitive, I just want fun to play rules which reflect the fluff. Bring on the Thousand Sons sorcery bonuses, the Blood Angels wound bonuses, the Word Bearers summon bonuses. Just make them decent so I'm not literally always losing because everyone else's armies are better than mine because my dumb brain decided the bad armies were cool.

 

 

My armies are Blood Angels and Necrons, dude. Don't you think I know exactly how you feel? I have probably the two weakest mono-faction armies in the game right now.

 

Re-read my post with a strong dose of cynicism in mind

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

 

 

 

We will have reached a state of transcendence where every army will be competitive in the ITC format, and there will be rejoicing in the streets.

 

 

Dude, I don't even want to be competitive, I just want fun to play rules which reflect the fluff. Bring on the Thousand Sons sorcery bonuses, the Blood Angels wound bonuses, the Word Bearers summon bonuses. Just make them decent so I'm not literally always losing because everyone else's armies are better than mine because my dumb brain decided the bad armies were cool.

 

 

My armies are Blood Angels and Necrons, dude. Don't you think I know exactly how you feel? I have probably the two weakest mono-faction armies in the game right now.

 

Re-read my post with a strong dose of cynicism in mind

 

What even happened to us? Blood Angels were good, like, two months ago, right? I guess C:SM raised the bar and didn't take us with it?

[Kaldoth]

Also to note, there will most likely be supplements for most of if not all other factions.

The Eldar have their Craftworld sub-factions.

The Dark Eldar have varying Cult sub-factions.

The Tyranids have hive-fleet sub-factions.

The Necrons will most likely receive at least one dynasty and/or similar method of sub-faction(s).

The Guard have regimental sub-factions.

The orks have got clan sub-factions.

T'au have castes and kroot/other mercenary sub-factions.

The sisters have different orders.

Demons have sub-factions based on the chaos gods.

The chaos marines have traitor legion traits and sub-factions.

Really the only factions i see that may have a reason to be worried are Custodes, Ad Mech and GSCs. This may just be that I'm not familiar enough them though.

Except the majority of those armies aren't going to get those supplement books for two reasons:

 

1. Their fluff isn't as developed and ingrained into the lore of the universe at the subfaction level. Yes, Necrons have different dynasties. Tau have different septs. Dark Eldar have different cabals. The list goes on. But for xenos factions, their background isn't nearly developed enough for a full on supplement book. Trying to write enough background for the Nephrek dynasty so it matches that of the Raven Guard is a tall order. Which brings me to my next point.

 

2. The cost to profit is going to be terrible. Like I said in my last point, there isn't enough there on most of these xenos subfactions to create a codex supplement that people are going to be willing to pay that 30 dollar price tag. It would literally be two pages of lore and then units and stratagems. Also, there just aren't enough players to warrant such a book for each subfaction. Space Marines are the golden child army of 40k, with CSMs being second. That's the majority of the playerbase, and there are enough players of each founding chapter/legion to at best warrant their own supplement and at worst have 2-3 chapters/legions in a single one. You aren't going to see GW make supplement books for obscure xenos factions because there just aren't the players there to support them.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Kaldoth

[Vermintide]

What even happened to us? Blood Angels were good, like, two months ago, right? I guess C:SM raised the bar and didn't take us with it?

We were? I feel like it's been an uphill struggle with my BA ever since I got back into the hobby, which was late '17 IIRC.

 

If you ask me what happened... Turn 1 deepstrike being removed. I feel like the whole army was written around it, and then had its legs cut off. The problem we face, without that, is simply being gunned off the field before we can reach anything in an edition that strongly favours shooting.

 

We can kick ass when we make it into combat, but we rarely do. A restriction imposed for better matched play resulting in us effectively losing all viability, outside of soup. You can always play narrative/open, of course, but I find most people want to go with the most official way of playing, which is the "competitive" tournament play style match.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Vermintide

[HandsWithLegs]

 

My armies are Blood Angels and Necrons, dude. Don't you think I know exactly how you feel? I have probably the two weakest mono-faction armies in the game right now.

 

Re-read my post with a strong dose of cynicism in mind

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you actually check the stats from the major tournaments and stuff Dark Angels are the absolute bottom of the barrel, with Blood Angels right above them, both with mono faction win rates around 35%. Necrons aren't doing all that bad right now, they are at 49% win rate! So things may not be as bad as you think, at least for one of your armies!

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Until the new codex dropped, BA, DA, DW, and RG were the four strongest marine builds. If you used Girlyman, UM could also compete. In fact, BA were some of the fastest marines, with ways to allow their jump troupes to move twice, etc. They were very likely to make it into melee.

 

The weakest mono marines were BT and GK. BT because no psycher support, only 1 denial strategem in a game that has very nasty buffs and mortal wounds crammed into the psychic phase, and a chapter tactic all about getting marines into combat in an edition where marines struggled to hold their own if you didn't pay out the butt for thunder hammers. GK, on the other hand, are just too expensive. That's really the primary thing that's been holding them back. They pay a huge cost for being psychers and can't do enough damage or survive on the table long enough to earn those points back.

 

As a BT player, it feels a little silly to see BA players complaining that they've been left behind. We all know BA will get a rules update. Hell, just two months ago you were the gold standard for mono marines, with some of the best strategems and cheesiest combos we could field, not to mention the flat out strongest unit SM have access to in the form of your flying psychic dreadnought. You'll be fine. Your rules are coming. Let's chill out and let IH have their time in the sun. I'm so happy for them. If any chapter deserved a meta boost for exposure, it's them.

 

As for other books? DG are still ridiculously strong. Eldar are still ridiculously strong. Guard are still ridiculously strong. Thousand Suns can still throw out enough smite spam and daemon troupes to kick anyone off the board. Slaanesh Daemons still have access to the flat out best new daemon units that have been released. T'au can still shoot you off of the board, though the increasing number of ways to ignore overwatch should be monitored, as it's reaching a critical point passed which they're going to start struggling.

 

As of now, the armies that most need a boost are Khorne Daemons, who have nothing going for them other than DPs and Bloodletter bombs; Necrons, who need a face lift in several key areas; GK, who struggled for all of 8th and deserve priority over factions that have had a good run in 8th; and sisters, who are going to get their book in November.

 

Finally, the neglected chaos Marines need to be brought into line with the rest of their brothers. DG and TS will get updated, but BL, WE, NL, WB, etc etc etc. They need a new codex that isn't a sham, and their own mini books. I wouldn't be surprised if that comes along some time next year.

[Trevak Dal]

I started playing in 5th edition. Something I've noticed is that this stuff goes in cycles, and while it's cool to be, an Ultramarines fan, or Space Wolf fan, or Black Legion fan, it's really much more advantageous to be a "Steel Pangolins" fan or "Cobalt Chinchillas" fan so you have one collection with unique heraldy that can let you buy any marine based books and use them. Even 30k.


Still got that tickle to do a 30k army using Intecessors as a base....

Again, give me Jump shoot jump back on my battle suits and bs3+ and I'll start laying stuff out.

Edited September 27, 2019 by WarriorFish
Unnecessary content removed

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We will have reached a state of transcendence where every army will be competitive in the ITC format, and there will be rejoicing in the streets.

 

Dude, I don't even want to be competitive, I just want fun to play rules which reflect the fluff. Bring on the Thousand Sons sorcery bonuses, the Blood Angels wound bonuses, the Word Bearers summon bonuses. Just make them decent so I'm not literally always losing because everyone else's armies are better than mine because my dumb brain decided the bad armies were cool.

My armies are Blood Angels and Necrons, dude. Don't you think I know exactly how you feel? I have probably the two weakest mono-faction armies in the game right now.

 

Re-read my post with a strong dose of cynicism in mind

What even happened to us? Blood Angels were good, like, two months ago, right? I guess C:SM raised the bar and didn't take us with it?

Really? My wife has been annihilating me with her Blood Angels pretty much since she started playing them, and skill wise we're about even.

 

My new stuff may have actually brought my army even with hers. She runs character heavy lists that spend the whole game locked in combat where I can't kill them with shooting and by the time my units get to fight back they're so depleted they can't do much damage in return.

[Trevak Dal]

Man a full/heavy Jumper Blood Angel army is just awesome.

[The Unseen]

Well, and Grey Knights probably aren't even listed.

 

BA weren't ever "good"

BA smash captains are very good though, and showed up in every copied imperial soup netlist for like, ever.

 

But I don't think a supreme command detatchment of BA captains surrounded by guardsmen and a Castellan makes BA good.

 

We were potentially the least bad of the non vanilla marines though, just because we do have some things we can do other marine factions couldn't. Maybe space wolves instead though, with shield dreads and wulfen and such.

 

But we were always worse than "take Gman and stuff effecient units around him" gunlines, and miles worse than soup, which could make use of our tricks better than we can thanks to increased CP counts.

 

Necrons aren't awful, theyre right in the middle competitive wise, but they feel very bland to play right now, and in larger games it can feel like resurrection protocls don't matter, because units just get focus fired off the table.

[HandsWithLegs]

If anybody wants some actual hard data about how well each army is currently doing instead of just guesses and anecdotal evidence https://www.40kstats.com/faction-breakdown-report uses tournament data (I think from ITC events) to put together stats and rankings. Its really helpful to see the mono faction win rates when having these kinds of conversations.

[Claws and Effect]

If anybody wants some actual hard data about how well each army is currently doing instead of just guesses and anecdotal evidence https://www.40kstats.com/faction-breakdown-report uses tournament data (I think from ITC events) to put together stats and rankings. Its really helpful to see the mono faction win rates when having these kinds of conversations.

Even that has to be taken with a grain of salt, unless there is data on what their opponents were.

 

Some armies just perform better against certain other armies, and if those factions get consistently matched up against factions they are especially good or bad against it can skew the stats to make them look better or worse than they really are.

[Vermintide]

Until the new codex dropped, BA, DA, DW, and RG were the four strongest marine builds. If you used Girlyman, UM could also compete. In fact, BA were some of the fastest marines, with ways to allow their jump troupes to move twice, etc. They were very likely to make it into melee.

 

The weakest mono marines were BT and GK. BT because no psycher support, only 1 denial strategem in a game that has very nasty buffs and mortal wounds crammed into the psychic phase, and a chapter tactic all about getting marines into combat in an edition where marines struggled to hold their own if you didn't pay out the butt for thunder hammers. GK, on the other hand, are just too expensive. That's really the primary thing that's been holding them back. They pay a huge cost for being psychers and can't do enough damage or survive on the table long enough to earn those points back.

 

As a BT player, it feels a little silly to see BA players complaining that they've been left behind. We all know BA will get a rules update. Hell, just two months ago you were the gold standard for mono marines, with some of the best strategems and cheesiest combos we could field, not to mention the flat out strongest unit SM have access to in the form of your flying psychic dreadnought. You'll be fine. Your rules are coming. Let's chill out and let IH have their time in the sun. I'm so happy for them. If any chapter deserved a meta boost for exposure, it's them.

 

As for other books? DG are still ridiculously strong. Eldar are still ridiculously strong. Guard are still ridiculously strong. Thousand Suns can still throw out enough smite spam and daemon troupes to kick anyone off the board. Slaanesh Daemons still have access to the flat out best new daemon units that have been released. T'au can still shoot you off of the board, though the increasing number of ways to ignore overwatch should be monitored, as it's reaching a critical point passed which they're going to start struggling.

 

As of now, the armies that most need a boost are Khorne Daemons, who have nothing going for them other than DPs and Bloodletter bombs; Necrons, who need a face lift in several key areas; GK, who struggled for all of 8th and deserve priority over factions that have had a good run in 8th; and sisters, who are going to get their book in November.

 

Finally, the neglected chaos Marines need to be brought into line with the rest of their brothers. DG and TS will get updated, but BL, WE, NL, WB, etc etc etc. They need a new codex that isn't a sham, and their own mini books. I wouldn't be surprised if that comes along some time next year.

 

Don't get me wrong- I'm glad Marines are FINALLY good. Lord knows they deserve it, they have been blighted by lacklustre "starter army" rules as long as I can remember. I thought I was bad at the game as a teenager; as an adult I just realised my poor guys just always got the crappiest rules.

 

However I think you're falling into the trap of buying into The Great Cycle. Sure, your army has struggled for a long time and deserves to be OP for a while; but it's harmful for the game overall. You might be glad that your Black Templars are strong when they get their book- But it won't last. This level of power creep is, sadly, evidence that the familiar GW pattern is in effect, and you'll rapidly change your mind next year when the Psychic Awakening concludes with a new Eldar codex and it makes these "overpowered" Space Marine supplements look like child's play. That is bad for the game and it pushes away players- It pushes away customers.

 

Basically what I'm saying is that a lot of players came back to 8th. The clean slate, the seemingly simplified ruleset, the balance... That was the selling point. But we don't know if GW intends to simply go back and address weak codexes, or if this is going to be the start of everyone's 2.0. If it turns out to be power creep, then we're slowly sliding towards the same old problems 40k had before, and it's going to sour a lot of the good will returning players have shown. Call me pessimistic, but I doubt they're going to say "Ehh, you know what? Eldar are still pretty damn strong. We'll leave them alone."

 

If you are familiar with socialist theory, you will understand how the capitalist pits one worker against each another in an illusory competition- This is a sleight of hand that prevents either worker from recognising their true foe. That's you right now comparing Blood Angels to Black Templar. Blood angels are your fellow Marine, you should not be condemning them for wanting to be more powerful! You are only strengthening the cycle! Break free and unite against your common oppressor, codex creep!

Edited September 24, 2019 by Vermintide

[Wulf Vengis]

I hate Codex creep as much as anyone else but we have to admit that without it we wouldn't even have a game. The only difference between my toy soldiers and yours would be the color we paint them.

 

Yes some of the factions don't have much in the way of sub-faction fluff to expand upon. But if the main Codex is good enough and the only supplement belonging to that Codex injects flavor and more ways to play than is the job not done?

 

Sure the base Eldar Codex is currently Codex: Craftworlds but i remember 3rd editions Craftworlds supplement, it was Fantastic and made the Eldar even nastier thanthey already were. That is what the Eldar have failed to do ever since, 5th edition was the closest they've come to being that unique again.

 

A lot of these "issues" in modern 40k stem from the loss of the force organization chart. It was the original skeleton upon which every faction and thereby the game itself was supported. It used to be simple to create a flavorful sub-faction just by modifying what unit types were available to build an army with. Or how many of those unit types you could take. Bring back the FOC i say and let us be fluffy by manipulating which units are troops or giving us extra elite slots etc.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Wulf Vengis

[Panzer]

Honestly, I don't care much about whether my army is strong or not. As long as I get interesting and fun rules and don't lose every single game I'm satisfied enough.

[Tyriks]

Honestly, I don't care much about whether my army is strong or not. As long as I get interesting and fun rules and don't lose every single game I'm satisfied enough.

This. I don't want an auto win army, I want one that is cohesive and fun to play. A lot of armies don't really have that right now because their codex was rushed out or made by people who don't play that faction.

[Link2edition]

My $.02

This is the first time I have seen Marine armies that fight like they do in the fluff, and I like it.

Are Iron Hands OP? Too early to say.

Will they shake up the meta? Definitely.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

If anybody wants some actual hard data about how well each army is currently doing instead of just guesses and anecdotal evidence https://www.40kstats.com/faction-breakdown-report uses tournament data (I think from ITC events) to put together stats and rankings. Its really helpful to see the mono faction win rates when having these kinds of conversations.

 

This data is a very useful tool, but don't fall into the trap of reading it like a  book. To understand how this works you have to look at more than just win rates. For example:

 

A: Win loss rate. - How often has any given faction won X percentage of its games.

 

B. Number of games. - How often does Y army actually hit the table? Greater population means greater spread of player skills, and thus more matches leads to a different curve than say, one extremely good player piloting BT and winning 3 out of 5 matches.

 

C. Matchups. - As was mentioned above, some armies counter others better. When one army type holds the meta, those counter to it will seem stronger than they are, and those vulnerable to it weaker. This can have a significant effect on the data.

 

At the bare minimum you should take those 3 points in mind when looking at the numbers we have access to. If you don't you're going to draw a lot of false conclusions.

 

 

 

Until the new codex dropped, BA, DA, DW, and RG were the four strongest marine builds. If you used Girlyman, UM could also compete. In fact, BA were some of the fastest marines, with ways to allow their jump troupes to move twice, etc. They were very likely to make it into melee.

 

The weakest mono marines were BT and GK. BT because no psycher support, only 1 denial strategem in a game that has very nasty buffs and mortal wounds crammed into the psychic phase, and a chapter tactic all about getting marines into combat in an edition where marines struggled to hold their own if you didn't pay out the butt for thunder hammers. GK, on the other hand, are just too expensive. That's really the primary thing that's been holding them back. They pay a huge cost for being psychers and can't do enough damage or survive on the table long enough to earn those points back.

 

As a BT player, it feels a little silly to see BA players complaining that they've been left behind. We all know BA will get a rules update. Hell, just two months ago you were the gold standard for mono marines, with some of the best strategems and cheesiest combos we could field, not to mention the flat out strongest unit SM have access to in the form of your flying psychic dreadnought. You'll be fine. Your rules are coming. Let's chill out and let IH have their time in the sun. I'm so happy for them. If any chapter deserved a meta boost for exposure, it's them.

 

As for other books? DG are still ridiculously strong. Eldar are still ridiculously strong. Guard are still ridiculously strong. Thousand Suns can still throw out enough smite spam and daemon troupes to kick anyone off the board. Slaanesh Daemons still have access to the flat out best new daemon units that have been released. T'au can still shoot you off of the board, though the increasing number of ways to ignore overwatch should be monitored, as it's reaching a critical point passed which they're going to start struggling.

 

As of now, the armies that most need a boost are Khorne Daemons, who have nothing going for them other than DPs and Bloodletter bombs; Necrons, who need a face lift in several key areas; GK, who struggled for all of 8th and deserve priority over factions that have had a good run in 8th; and sisters, who are going to get their book in November.

 

Finally, the neglected chaos Marines need to be brought into line with the rest of their brothers. DG and TS will get updated, but BL, WE, NL, WB, etc etc etc. They need a new codex that isn't a sham, and their own mini books. I wouldn't be surprised if that comes along some time next year.

 

Don't get me wrong- I'm glad Marines are FINALLY good. Lord knows they deserve it, they have been blighted by lacklustre "starter army" rules as long as I can remember. I thought I was bad at the game as a teenager; as an adult I just realised my poor guys just always got the crappiest rules.

 

However I think you're falling into the trap of buying into The Great Cycle. Sure, your army has struggled for a long time and deserves to be OP for a while; but it's harmful for the game overall. You might be glad that your Black Templars are strong when they get their book- But it won't last. This level of power creep is, sadly, evidence that the familiar GW pattern is in effect, and you'll rapidly change your mind next year when the Psychic Awakening concludes with a new Eldar codex and it makes these "overpowered" Space Marine supplements look like child's play. That is bad for the game and it pushes away players- It pushes away customers.

 

Basically what I'm saying is that a lot of players came back to 8th. The clean slate, the seemingly simplified ruleset, the balance... That was the selling point. But we don't know if GW intends to simply go back and address weak codexes, or if this is going to be the start of everyone's 2.0. If it turns out to be power creep, then we're slowly sliding towards the same old problems 40k had before, and it's going to sour a lot of the good will returning players have shown. Call me pessimistic, but I doubt they're going to say "Ehh, you know what? Eldar are still pretty damn strong. We'll leave them alone."

 

If you are familiar with socialist theory, you will understand how the capitalist pits one worker against each another in an illusory competition- This is a sleight of hand that prevents either worker from recognising their true foe. That's you right now comparing Blood Angels to Black Templar. Blood angels are your fellow Marine, you should not be condemning them for wanting to be more powerful! You are only strengthening the cycle! Break free and unite against your common oppressor, codex creep!

 

 

"The Great Cycle" is just that: a cycle. Unless you play Eldar, you're going to have to serve your time at the bottom before you grind back up to the top. That is how it goes. Would it be great if GW finally figured out how to tweak the bottom armies up to the top without lowering anyone in the process? Yes. That would be wonderful. But I'm being pragmatic here. Having a cycle of changing balance is better than no change at all, especially at the rate rules are released these days. I'll be happy if we wind up with all armies being viable. As it stands? I'll enjoy my time being near the top until i get buried again.

 

Well. When I'm not playing my Khorne Daemons, anyway. i do love being the underdog.

[Panzer]

People who are saying that Marines 'finally' get their time at the top seem to have skipped the late 7th with all the free transports and stuff that made Marines a top tier army as well. Oh how quick people forget. ^^

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

People who are saying that Marines 'finally' get their time at the top seem to have skipped the late 7th with all the free transports and stuff that made Marines a top tier army as well. Oh how quick people forget. ^^

Or they're like me, and got into 40k around when, like, Shadowspear happened.

[Claws and Effect]

People who are saying that Marines 'finally' get their time at the top seem to have skipped the late 7th with all the free transports and stuff that made Marines a top tier army as well. Oh how quick people forget. ^^

Sure, they were good.

 

But there is a significant difference now. Not only are Marines good, but they now also play like how their fluff suggests they should.

 

In 7th you were more or less locked into 1 very narrow playstyle if you wanted to reach your armies full potential. Now a Raven Guard army and an Iron Hands army can both be good while playing very differently.

 

The last time Marines were relatively good was for a hot second at the beginning of 8th edition when they were the only faction that had a full Codex. They beat up Index factions on a regular basis. That changed real fast once other Codexes started coming out.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Claws and Effect

[Panzer]

 

People who are saying that Marines 'finally' get their time at the top seem to have skipped the late 7th with all the free transports and stuff that made Marines a top tier army as well. Oh how quick people forget. ^^

Sure, they were good.

 

But there is a significant difference now. Not only are Marines good, but they now also play like how their fluff suggests they should.

 

In 7th you were more or less locked into 1 very narrow playstyle if you wanted to reach your armies full potential. Now a Raven Guard army and an Iron Hands army can both be good while playing very differently.

 

The last time Marines were relatively good was for a hot second at the beginning of 8th edition when they were the only faction that had a full Codex. They beat up Index factions on a regular basis. That changed real fast once other Codexes started coming out.

 

 

Yeah for sure. It started with Primaris being more durable, more punch in melee and having better punch on their bolters and is continued with the layered rules in the new codex+supplements. GW is definitely improving on how Marines feel on the table. ^^

[MegaVolt87]

I hate Codex creep as much as anyone else but we have to admit that without it we wouldn't even have a game. The only difference between my toy soldiers and yours would be the color we paint them.

 

Yes some of the factions don't have much in the way of sub-faction fluff to expand upon. But if the main Codex is good enough and the only supplement belonging to that Codex injects flavor and more ways to play than is the job not done?

 

Sure the base Eldar Codex is currently Codex: Craftworlds but i remember 3rd editions Craftworlds supplement, it was Fantastic and made the Eldar even nastier thanthey already were. That is what the Eldar have failed to do ever since, 5th edition was the closest they've come to being that unique again.

 

A lot of these "issues" in modern 40k stem from the loss of the force organization chart. It was the original skeleton upon which every faction and thereby the game itself was supported. It used to be simple to create a flavorful sub-faction just by modifying what unit types were available to build an army with. Or how many of those unit types you could take. Bring back the FOC i say and let us be fluffy by manipulating which units are troops or giving us extra elite slots etc.

 

Here is the problem with the old school force org chart compared to the new ones with detachments- the new ones make GW more money because they are OP to build around, thus more models sold at the cost of more even game balance where everything was once designed around that one old FOC. 

 

STONKS

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Yeah for sure. It started with Primaris being more durable, more punch in melee and having better punch on their bolters and is continued with the layered rules in the new codex+supplements. GW is definitely improving on how Marines feel on the table. ^^

 

 

Primaris were complete garbage until the first Chapter Approved while marines were top tier that whole time.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Well GW is in the business of making money first and having a fair and balanced game second. Power creep, staggered releases and codex cycling is planned by GW, it makes them more money. I'm not saying they are evil for it, they are a business after all and need to strive and survive. It doesn't create any sort of game balance though. Some players will jump ship when one faction is alot stronger than another. It also promotes people collecting and playing multiple armies, buying when one team gets a new codex and or releases and buying more later.

 

It's the waiting for the army(s) you play to get boosted/balanced that sucks. Could you imagine playing some social game like a mmorpg with multiple classes/factions, and they only added skills/abilities/mechanics to one and it took months and months for some of the others? People would be pissed. If GW really cared about balance they would release new codexes at the same time and new models/units at the same time. That way everything would be tested and balanced together. But they would make alot less money that way.

 

I'm happy for long time marine players, I saw a lot of doom and gloom from some of them when Primaris became a thing. I've seen alot of those people put that behind them with the new codex and supplements and start to enjoy the hobby again.