Have they "jumped the shark" with the Marine Dex(s) power?

[Ficinus]

What are the odds of the new Sisters codex being Iron Hands (or even new Space Marines) level powerful? If low, what does that say about the idea that GW is going to rebalance the game at a higher power level?

[Panzer]

What are the odds of the new Sisters codex being Iron Hands (or even new Space Marines) level powerful? If low, what does that say about the idea that GW is going to rebalance the game at a higher power level?

 

Extremely low I'd say.

[BitsHammer]

The IH Dreadnought os a red herring who can be tagged in melee to stop it'a silliness. The real issue with IH is the air force, and a combination with ITC rules that buffs them further by making it easier to avoid LOS so we can effectively taeget their lynchpins.

 

That said, I'm certain we'll find ways to deal with that too. GW is likely not touching rhis mess until the spring FAQ to see how the meta shakes out.

[Dark Shepherd]

What are the odds of the new Sisters codex being Iron Hands (or even new Space Marines) level powerful? If low, what does that say about the idea that GW is going to rebalance the game at a higher power level?

I would say no as they know theyre selling an F tonne of the new models anyway, good but not great would be my guess

[Slasher956]

What are the odds of the new Sisters codex being Iron Hands (or even new Space Marines) level powerful? If low, what does that say about the idea that GW is going to rebalance the game at a higher power level?

going off the WD list.... I'd say that low it doesnt appear on a chart...

 

what does it say about GWs balancing of the codex... that its not going to happen, all that does is the sales of minis.  If they could figure out how to increase the model line without overlapping another force* then they would do so and increase the power level from niece to must buy.

 

 

*putting them back in to Talons with the Custodes seems to have escaped their attention at the moment :p

[Dark Shepherd]

Whats the exact combo for the immortal Iron Hands leviathan dread btw?

 

Quick guess is FAQ will nerf stacking reducing damage abilities

[toaae]

The real issue with IH is the air force, and a combination with ITC rules that buffs them further by making it easier to avoid LOS so we can effectively taeget their lynchpins.

 

The Vehicles-with-Fly-and-Ruins ruling would adversely affect the Iron Hands, not buff them. They can't make use of perching on top of terrain to get better LoS. Off the top of my head, the only army that would be worse off would be Necrons, as everyone else either doesn't have Fly vehicles or has enough mobility to get LoS as needed.

 

Whats the exact combo for the immortal Iron Hands leviathan dread btw?

 

Quick guess is FAQ will nerf stacking reducing damage abilities

 

As mentioned above, the Leviathan isn't the real issue. It was a theory thing before release about how durable the IH's can get something. The bigger problem is Flyers and/or Repulsors.

Edited October 16, 2019 by toaae

[Ishagu]

Repulsors are tough but not broken.

 

It's character Dreads, Leviathans and Flyers that cause the most toxic combinations.

The Iron Stone is also overpowered significantly.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Why are multiple posts being deleted?!

It's a bigger problem than that. You should watch the new episode of stat centre:

Basically, there are factions that in the right hands can perform very well. Ynnari were one such army, and they had a very high win % when they were used by a few capable players. Their win % actually fell as more people started to use them (typically happens as more people = more players of low skill start using the faction). They hit a win success of about 65% at their peak before they grew in popularity.

Iron Hands make up 10% of all tournament armies over the past 2 weeks, meaning players of all skill levels are using them. Despite this they have a win rate of 78% and more worryingly, achieve this with multiple different list templates indicating that the core rules, as well as various unit combinations are too powerful. This means that all sorts of Iron Hands lists will crush opponents in competitive and casual play alike, it's not just a problem in tournaments and it's not just one list you can avoid.

White Scars are the 2nd top performers, with a win rate of 66% but are used by a much lower number of players - they are a faction that can perform in the hands of a skilled general, and Ultras are far behind with a win rate of 52% which is actually not much better than what they used to have with the old codex. They are the 2nd most popular after Iron Hands.

The issue is not with the codex, and it's important to recognise that all factions are not equal culprits. This is also easily fixed as the rules causing this aren't shared across all the chapters, and can be modified individually.

Edit: Fixed typos

To me this was quite alarmist and a lot of information was misrepresented.

[Dark Shepherd]

Mob Rules had a good post up on it

 

Stormhawks and Stormtalons look obscenely broken with the IH Doctrine

 

Good news is doctrine for flyers, Ironstone, how often vehicles can be repaired in one turn, can all be fixed in the supplement FAQ

[BitsHammer]

 

 

The real issue with IH is the air force, and a combination with ITC rules that buffs them further by making it easier to avoid LOS so we can effectively taeget their lynchpins.

The Vehicles-with-Fly-and-Ruins ruling would adversely affect the Iron Hands, not buff them. They can't make use of perching on top of terrain to get better LoS. Off the top of my head, the only army that would be worse off would be Necrons, as everyone else either doesn't have Fly vehicles or has enough mobility to get LoS as needed.

Whats the exact combo for the immortal Iron Hands leviathan dread btw?

 

Quick guess is FAQ will nerf stacking reducing damage abilities

As mentioned above, the Leviathan isn't the real issue. It was a theory thing before release about how durable the IH's can get something. The bigger problem is Flyers and/or Repulsors.

It also prevents other armies from effectively using terrain to give their own flyers LoS to deal with IH characters. Plus Magic Boxes make it easier to protect characters.

[Wulf Vengis]

Brothers and sisters, why are we still panicking over this. I've said before that enough time hadn't passed and i stand by that. Sure a few weeks, maybe a month has passed but nothing else has released yet. Psychic Awakening is still not out, sisters haven't dropped and even then next marine supplement is still in the air.

 

Yes there are some things that may be an issue after future releases but we just can't know for sure yet. Take a breath, relax and simply wait for more releases before damming the whole thing on a couple of nasty combos.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Wulf Vengis

[BitsHammer]

Brothers and sisters, why are we still panicking over this. I've said before that which time hadn't passed and i stand by that. Sure a few weeks maybe a month has passed but nothing else had released yet. Psychic Awakening is still not out, sisters haven't dropped and even then next marine supplement is still in the air.

 

Yes there are some things that may be an issue after future releases but we just can't know for sure yet. Take a breath, relax and simply wait for more releases before damming the whole thing on a couple of nasty combos.

I feel IH are not nearly as broken as most of the internet claims, I just feel that the ITC format is making it harder to effectively target and kill the things they need to make the army work.

[Ficinus]

Can someone explain what it is about the ITC that may make the Iron Hands even stronger? Other than how scoring works, I don't know much about ITC rules. I could see how ITC scoring benefits the Iron Hands more than maelstrom based scoring systems, but some of the tournaments mentioned used maelstrom based scoring (Michigan GT for example).

[BitsHammer]

Can someone explain what it is about the ITC that may make the Iron Hands even stronger? Other than how scoring works, I don't know much about ITC rules. I could see how ITC scoring benefits the Iron Hands more than maelstrom based scoring systems, but some of the tournaments mentioned used maelstrom based scoring (Michigan GT for example).

More restricted LoS rules mean that they can protect characters which makes it harder to turn off their buffs.

[Ishagu]

They just won an ETC tournament as well...

[toaae]

Can someone explain what it is about the ITC that may make the Iron Hands even stronger? Other than how scoring works, I don't know much about ITC rules. I could see how ITC scoring benefits the Iron Hands more than maelstrom based scoring systems, but some of the tournaments mentioned used maelstrom based scoring (Michigan GT for example).

 

It doesn't. Nothing about how the ITC terrain rulings benefit Iron Hands more than other armies, and in fact, would restrict them more then provide an advantage.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

The real issue with IH is the air force, and a combination with ITC rules that buffs them further by making it easier to avoid LOS so we can effectively taeget their lynchpins.

 

 

The Vehicles-with-Fly-and-Ruins ruling would adversely affect the Iron Hands, not buff them. They can't make use of perching on top of terrain to get better LoS. Off the top of my head, the only army that would be worse off would be Necrons, as everyone else either doesn't have Fly vehicles or has enough mobility to get LoS as needed.

 

Whats the exact combo for the immortal Iron Hands leviathan dread btw?

Quick guess is FAQ will nerf stacking reducing damage abilities

 

 

As mentioned above, the Leviathan isn't the real issue. It was a theory thing before release about how durable the IH's can get something. The bigger problem is Flyers and/or Repulsors.

This is not true and don’t delete this post. Stormtalons can hover and sit beside the character with the Iron Stone. Stormhawks are however supersonic and must always move - they will prolly inflict some serious damage but are nearly as resilient without the buffs .

[Wulf Vengis]

They just won an ETC tournament as well...

Well had i known that i would've been freaking out too.

Batten down the hatches, toss whatever we don't need overboard and break up the furniture for firewood.

 

Look, just be patient. An unusual army is riding the meta wave oh nooooo.

Chill.

[Morticon]

With the latest very impressive IH nerf, I'm now convinced they went overboard.  

Glad they reigned it back in. 

[GrinNfool]

Certainly helps?  Whether they toned down the real culprits of IH power though will remain to be seen so we are back to waiting to see how the meta shakes out again, which is far better than having a meta with something thats obviously broken.

Edited October 18, 2019 by GrinNfool

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t even play Iron Hands and my bum still hurts after this morning. I suppose now knowing 50% of the player base won’t quit ... yeah right.

[Lord_Caerolion]

if 50% of the player-base are going to cut and run after the changes today, it was going to happen anyway when the next flavour-of-the-month Codex got released. No big loss.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There’s no way 50% of the player base was going to ever quit but that’s what FLG said.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Wait, actually quit? Well, anyone actually quitting the game over a very strong codex getting nerfed, I'm not going to shed any tears over their leaving.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Lord_Caerolion