Feirros is NOT worth it and Leviathans

[brÖtherIrön]

The inherent problem with Feirros and the Leviathan is that they WILL become more expensive. 

 

Imagine both  units get the Girlyman-/Castellan-Treatment with a 50pts or respectively 100pts increase with the Leviathan.

 

The tournaments I attend wont allow Index Units, so no Techmarine on a bike for me. I thought long and hard about even a simple Techmarine for 45pts.

 

It is hard to stay mobile with a 6" model and even worse with this NEW 5" Primaris Mustache-Abomination called Feirros.

 

Imagine how much better Iron Hands hands will become if we, the Iron Tenth seek a strong midfield presence or even frontline assaults instead of 

 

"hurr-durr-we have are the new Girlyman-Castle and u cannot touch my triple executioners or my suddenly new favourite Leviathans".

 

With leaving Feirros out of the game we can do so much hammer time. I often use a Master-Crafted Damage 4 hammer, Jump Pack Chapter Master 5 hits 

 

in and Jump out or glue him to another unit I dont want to shoot.

 

I would strongly advise to make best use of "Student of History"-Trait without Feirros,  stop this nonsense repeating same 3 lists over and over again.

 

Use the advantage of Iron Hands without maximising on simple ideas. Dont let yourselft fooled you cannot be outplayed on objectives.

 

Logic and cold fury is the creed of Iron Hands and not this whimpish Tau-Girlyman-Caste-up-behaviour.

 

With Iron Hands you can be VERY creative.

 

Make the Iron 10th proud and ignore the bandwagoners who "always loved, White Scars(7ed), Salamanders(early 8ed), Ultramarine fanbois (because Girlyman) and soon maybe the new Dorn boys with their supplement to come). 

Edited October 2, 2019 by brÖtherIrön

[Panzer]

Or ... you maybe just let people play what they want?

[Raktra]

Wonderful assuming that everyone who plays Iron Hands isn’t doing it because they have done so for many years and already had their army well established, because :cuss us, we’re all just flavour of the month bandwagon players, right?

[brÖtherIrön]

Everyone who played Iron Hands out of conviction is a brother in mind to me, the rest are bandwagoners.

 

I feel like, we have so much more potential instead of this "hurr-durr-let-people-play-what-they-want".

I am the type of player who likes a faction and puts its insignia all over the models to make it clear but soon there will be another "hurr-durr-let-people-play-what-they-want".

[WarriorFish]

As much as there are some new inductees to the Iron Hands let's not cast any aspersions either way I think it very odd to assume that lots of people are out running the same thing - I don't think this has ever been the case, even in the dark ages of the deathstars.

 

Table tops across the World are not suddenly going to be creaking under the weight of all the Feirros and Leviathan models as the Internet is not the entire hobby. For all the talk of this combo most will ignore it, either though lack of models or lack of interest.

 

As you note the Iron Hands are far from one trick ponies, the Internet hype will fade sooner or later so don't worry about it

[THUNDERFISTS]

The best thing about having a good book finally is the viability of multiple options. Leviathans are great, probably getting a nerf soon. Once they do people will hop over to the next powerful thing and the cycle repeats. Remember only a few short years ago when the most powerful thing was that way for YEARS instead of months? We don't have to live with it for very long any more. The Ferros/Executioner castle is great, too, and that playstyle has proven very effective with the evidence - Tau, Guilliman, etc. It's A way to play, but if the mission/rules set you're playing doesn't reward castling it won't do well. 

 

In tournaments people will and SHOULD play what is most effective to help swing the odds towards winning, because that is the point. If you play Narrative games in your garage then what the competitive meta indicates shouldn't have any impact on your casual fun.

 

Please don't try gatekeeping, its in bad taste. There are multiple ways to play and now thankfully multiple ways to play well. Something else will get a big boost and become the flavor of the month soon, that's only logical. 

[brÖtherIrön]

I am not playing narratively, but I assume that Feirros Warlord Trait was set on purpose else it would "always" be Feirros + History-Captain. I also find it is so much more effective to run 1 character melee-dreadnought. In my case it is a 3+,5++, 5+++ Contemptor. I would see the viabilty of 2 dakka dreads. This supplement amazes me since we dont only have 1 or 2 good things, but you have to really restrain yourself not to burn all cp before game. If u assume the game is "over" after 2nd or 3rd turn I would also be less inclined to use the helmet. 3 hours performance is enough to secure victory on tournaments.

 

I was also sometimes inclined to use the "Betrayer's Bane" with his combi-melta on my Jump Pack Chapter Master but thought that Damage 4 was often relevant enough, Prime Example: Custodes Bikes. But it might be nice with Bane + Target Protocols with targeting him or other meltas or heavy weapons midfield.

[TrawlingCleaner]

I'm really not sure what the point of this thread was? To bash players for playing to a play style you don't agree with? It's one of the most effective combos from the book mainly because it ignores the majority of the current meta (2-3dmg AT). What if someone has been playing IH for ages with Levis and repulsor,s because they were some of the best options in the codex and FW, and thought, hey that new techmarine is sweet I'll add him to my force. Guess they're a bandwagoner too, eh?

[emperorpants]

If someone wants to play the iron father + executioners + Levi competitively what is the problem?  See, I feel bad for Iron Hands players who are getting shamed for being so powerful.  Imo the Iron Hands supplement is way too op.  That isn't the fault of Iron Hands players though, it's the fault of GW not being able to balance things. 

 

Of course people are going to want to take some of the most powerful combos in competitive matches.  Why shouldn't they?  In a casual match that's different.  If someone runs the deathball on a random Saturday and crushes someone who is just getting into the game, that is a jerk move.  But in competitive?  Of course they should be able to, and they shouldn't feel guilty or be shamed for it. 

 

People are going to take the best combos, it's GW's fault for publishing such op combos, not the players.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

My knee jerk reaction to the OP was to lock the thread. Gatekeeping is a :cuss thing to do, and bandwagoning has been a time-honored tradition since the tournament-ification of 40K in 5th Edition.

 

We already got bandwagoned once after the Raukaan supplement in 6th Edition because the "Smashfather" was an unstoppable brick of a character. It happens, and you can't stop it no matter how much you complain about it.

 

So instead, ask yourself: what is the benefit of bandwagon Iron Hands players? Let me give you some anecdotes.

 

1. "Iron Within, Iron Without." People mix us up with the 4th Legion all the time due to similarities in name and characterization. Hopefully, this newfound popularity will stop that from happening as often.

 

2. "Oh look, Raven Guard." I went to a tourney in Orlando in the early days of 6th Edition and another player saw my fully painted army if black, white, and silver Marines and said "Nice Raven Guard." I said nope, and he goes, "Oh. Black Templars?" I have Chapter pauldrons on my infantry and FW chapter doors/glacis plates on my tanks. But black Marines were automatically anything *but* Iron Hands. Maybe now that we are feared, we'll be the first name to pop into someone's mind instead of the last.

 

3. A named character, finally. When I cracked open my brand new copy of C:SM in 5th Edition, I was disappointed. Every featured chapter had a character instead of us. My stance has changed in the past 11 years since that book came out, and I was content in not having or needing a character. I won't use him because I'm an anti-Primaris grognard, but I'm *happy he's here,* and I'm happy he's so useful...because I'm not the only Iron Hands player in the world. Even if he gets a points increase, he has tremendous utility. People are bandwagoning in part because he is such a fantastic tool for our army, so be proud that he's a part of our ascension to the big leagues.

[quasistellar]

The inherent problem with Feirros and the Leviathan is that they WILL become more expensive. 

 

Imagine both  units get the Girlyman-/Castellan-Treatment with a 50pts or respectively 100pts increase with the Leviathan.

 

The tournaments I attend wont allow Index Units, so no Techmarine on a bike for me. I thought long and hard about even a simple Techmarine for 45pts.

 

It is hard to stay mobile with a 6" model and even worse with this NEW 5" Primaris Mustache-Abomination called Feirros.

 

Imagine how much better Iron Hands hands will become if we, the Iron Tenth seek a strong midfield presence or even frontline assaults instead of 

 

"hurr-durr-we have are the new Girlyman-Castle and u cannot touch my triple executioners or my suddenly new favourite Leviathans".

 

With leaving Feirros out of the game we can do so much hammer time. I often use a Master-Crafted Damage 4 hammer, Jump Pack Chapter Master 5 hits 

 

in and Jump out or glue him to another unit I dont want to shoot.

 

I would strongly advise to make best use of "Student of History"-Trait without Feirros,  stop this nonsense repeating same 3 lists over and over again.

 

Use the advantage of Iron Hands without maximising on simple ideas. Dont let yourselft fooled you cannot be outplayed on objectives.

 

Logic and cold fury is the creed of Iron Hands and not this whimpish Tau-Girlyman-Caste-up-behaviour.

 

With Iron Hands you can be VERY creative.

 

Make the Iron 10th proud and ignore the bandwagoners who "always loved, White Scars(7ed), Salamanders(early 8ed), Ultramarine fanbois (because Girlyman) and soon maybe the new Dorn boys with their supplement to come). 

 

Please show me on the servitor where Iron Father Feirros's servo arm touched you.

 

ANYWAY:  I love the Iron Father. He's awesome and looks legit.  He isn't even the reason people are in such a huff about Iron Hands; it's the Ironstone.  I've yet to play with the new supplements, but I've already got lots of ideas for taking advantage of the new strengths of IH, and they don't involve Feirros surrounded by 3 Executioners.

Edited October 2, 2019 by quasistellar

[Dark Legionnare]

 

The inherent problem with Feirros and the Leviathan is that they WILL become more expensive. 

 

Imagine both  units get the Girlyman-/Castellan-Treatment with a 50pts or respectively 100pts increase with the Leviathan.

 

The tournaments I attend wont allow Index Units, so no Techmarine on a bike for me. I thought long and hard about even a simple Techmarine for 45pts.

 

It is hard to stay mobile with a 6" model and even worse with this NEW 5" Primaris Mustache-Abomination called Feirros.

 

Imagine how much better Iron Hands hands will become if we, the Iron Tenth seek a strong midfield presence or even frontline assaults instead of 

 

"hurr-durr-we have are the new Girlyman-Castle and u cannot touch my triple executioners or my suddenly new favourite Leviathans".

 

With leaving Feirros out of the game we can do so much hammer time. I often use a Master-Crafted Damage 4 hammer, Jump Pack Chapter Master 5 hits 

 

in and Jump out or glue him to another unit I dont want to shoot.

 

I would strongly advise to make best use of "Student of History"-Trait without Feirros,  stop this nonsense repeating same 3 lists over and over again.

 

Use the advantage of Iron Hands without maximising on simple ideas. Dont let yourselft fooled you cannot be outplayed on objectives.

 

Logic and cold fury is the creed of Iron Hands and not this whimpish Tau-Girlyman-Caste-up-behaviour.

 

With Iron Hands you can be VERY creative.

 

Make the Iron 10th proud and ignore the bandwagoners who "always loved, White Scars(7ed), Salamanders(early 8ed), Ultramarine fanbois (because Girlyman) and soon maybe the new Dorn boys with their supplement to come). 

 

Please show me on the servitor where Iron Father Feirros's servo arm touched you.

 

ANYWAY:  I love the Iron Father. He's awesome and looks legit.  He isn't even the reason people are in such a huff about Iron Hands; it's the Ironstone.  I've yet to play with the new supplements, but I've already got lots of ideas for taking advantage of the new strengths of IH, and they don't involve Feirros surrounded by 3 Executioners.

 

Amen, brother. 

 

I don't have a Leviathan dread, but I'm stoked there's a guy now who can actually let my redemptor, repulsor, and or executioner survive decently now. Before, the huge AP-4 presence of my majority Deldar opponents was an absolute, constant slap in the face.  Vehicles were lucky if they survived until turn 3, unbelievable if they survived until 4.

 

In my second game, I used the Ironstone, and like you said, it was a HUGE deal.  Even against shots against the repulsor (no half damage strat) it made a massive difference reducing all those usually gut-wrenching 5's and 6's to 4's and 5's.  That much more survivability mixed in with FNP, good to actually have my vehicles around to do some lifting.  Once I finish the executioner I've had in the works for a while I'll be exited to have Feirros advancing alongside it and a redemptor, while the repulsor goes and does it's own thing as a bus for the objective grabbing Intercessors.

 

As for OP saying feirros being slow. Sure, he is, unless you advance him. Being a support character, he's basically purpose-made to continually speed-waddle alongside advancing forces, rather than fire his one heavy bolter or charge on his own. He's a force multiplier, and he's damn good at it.  Having my guys actually survive a few turns, longer if I can get those 6W repairs off with feirros, is a god send for my nowhere-near-optimized list. 

 

Even if he got a point increase of 50pts (Which I actually think he should, he does A LOT for just 110pts), I'd still take him because he lets me run the units I have and love. As always, what I buy and paint is solely because I'm an aesthetics man first and foremost with 40k armies, not what's "the most effective." 

 

I did recently finish the overpriced (points-wise) monstrosity that is a fellblade for said star Phantoms after all. :'D

 

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Dark Legionnare

[THUNDERFISTS]

Adding onto Dark Legionnare's comment, Ferros is a force multiplier in a unique way for us too. Everyone has Captains/CMs/Lieutenants, but only we have the ability to heal 6 wounds, give a 5++ bubble, giving 2+ BS to a unit, AND pack some oomph both in shooting and fighting. The other new Primaris Characters do some of those things, but not all. Add in our Devastator Doctrine Trait and it's a marvel of efficiency from one HQ model. I love Iron Daddy.

[Dark Legionnare]

Adding onto Dark Legionnare's comment, Ferros is a force multiplier in a unique way for us too. Everyone has Captains/CMs/Lieutenants, but only we have the ability to heal 6 wounds, give a 5++ bubble, giving 2+ BS to a unit, AND pack some oomph both in shooting and fighting. The other new Primaris Characters do some of those things, but not all. Add in our Devastator Doctrine Trait and it's a marvel of efficiency from one HQ model. I love Iron Daddy.

The only time he ever shows emotion is when someone calls him "daddy."  Gets his circuits all fired up.

 

In all seriousness, yeah, he's amazing. I honestly think for all that you listed, he should be a bit higher cost, 110 is, IMO, very undercosted; but he's still an auto-take for an HQ slot I was always struggling to ever use more than a Captain for... Mostly due to my own "primaris stuff ONLY for this army" rule I put on myself.

 

Also, the new psychic powers let me actually bring a psyker for the first time in 8th outside my Death Guard. I love having a support psyker rather than the much-bemoanded-in-my-local-group mortal wound spewers. (Still waiting on them to allow a librarian in gravis armor. Until then, the gravis captain model is forever my "termi lib w/sword and storm bolter")

Edited October 2, 2019 by Dark Legionnare

[Lord Blackwood]

Bandwagoner here from  Clan R.  Sup  and now Back again for this hype Primaris Tech Marine The Iron Father ( with a heads swap ) 

Really enjoying the fact that I can play a pure  marine list and take armor  as well as have a set up to keep that armor alive. 


Just be easy and play yer game , let people do what they are gonna do fam. 
 

[RandomMarine]

Tbh I don't think the leviathan nerf is gonna be a points increase, it'll be a rules mod so strats don't work on RELIC/HELLFORGED units same as they did with the scorpius whirlwind + chronos

[Guest Iron Father Bahadur]

Been playing iron hands close to 20 years. My fav models have been since 8th started gravis armor and repulsor. Up until now everyone was like - lol nice meme list. Now everyone thinks I’m trying to be that guy.

 

Weird position to be in :|

[Dark Legionnare]

Been playing iron hands close to 20 years. My fav models have been since 8th started gravis armor and repulsor. Up until now everyone was like - lol nice meme list. Now everyone thinks I’m trying to be that guy.

 

Weird position to be in :|

I suspect a lot of us will get this going forward. 

 

Suddenly the "memes" like a dakka redemptor only hitting on 4's, and both it and a repulsor getting carved open by any AT that sneezes in their direction is suddenly fieldable vs before it was just our stubborness of playing what we made and love.

 

Been through it with my 3rd+early-4th ed blood angels, but this time I'll weather it and stick around.  Primaris sculpts are all pretty damn amazing, so I'm sticking around!  Not getting any "samey" vibes like I did with the old marine kits that weren't BA specific.

 

Just stand your ground! You've been at it for years. Won't stop people whinging, but at least you've got the firm ground to be on. ;)

Edited October 2, 2019 by Dark Legionnare

[Panzer]

Been playing iron hands close to 20 years. My fav models have been since 8th started gravis armor and repulsor. Up until now everyone was like - lol nice meme list. Now everyone thinks I’m trying to be that guy.

 

Weird position to be in :|

 

Yeah I'm already sorry for you. However that's what I get since forever just for playing T'au even though I don't even own a single Riptide or variant.

[MajorNese]

Been playing iron hands close to 20 years. My fav models have been since 8th started gravis armor and repulsor. Up until now everyone was like - lol nice meme list. Now everyone thinks I’m trying to be that guy.

 

Weird position to be in :|

Well, in case anyone comes weird, I'd just throw ancient IH minis at them, preferably the metal ones.

 

Same with my black-red IH (that I started pre-V2 rumors) - if anyone criticizes the paint scheme as not being true IH, I can hurt their eyes with old 4th edition minis. The paint results of trying to do pure black-and-metal are the reason I haven't ever painted pure black again.

[brÖtherIrön]

 

Been playing iron hands close to 20 years. My fav models have been since 8th started gravis armor and repulsor. Up until now everyone was like - lol nice meme list. Now everyone thinks I’m trying to be that guy.

 

Weird position to be in :|

Well, in case anyone comes weird, I'd just throw ancient IH minis at them, preferably the metal ones.

 

Same with my black-red IH (that I started pre-V2 rumors) - if anyone criticizes the paint scheme as not being true IH, I can hurt their eyes with old 4th edition minis. The paint results of trying to do pure black-and-metal are the reason I haven't ever painted pure black again.

 

I would really like to see them. I have a weird painting scheme as well. Iron Hands without black is a statement :-)

[MajorNese]

Here you go. Started as a side project to distract from painting black-green gradients all day, then intended as allies for the knights, and now that the whole allies thing doesn't work, they'll become their own army.

 

These guys will get their own topic here, but first I have to finish that AoP board...

[Brother Tyler]

The inherent problem with Feirros and the Leviathan is that they WILL become more expensive.

One of the essential failings of the statement above is that it doesn't correspond with the topic title:

 

"Feirros is NOT worth it and Leviathans"

 

To be sure, judging by the clamor on the internet, Feirros and Leviathans totally look like they're "worth it" to many players. All of that, of course, depends upon each individual's objectives, so there's no objective conclusion about whether or not Feirros and Leviathans are "worth it."

 

The actual argument being made is that the "current" Internet standard Iron Hands army list featuring Feirros and Leviathans will be affected if/when GW changes the rules, points costs, or both. Regardless, things will adjust over time as additional armies' rules are released, new units and rules become available, and metas change.

 

Also, aspersions about bandwagoners and the like are elitist and have no place here. Everyone that plays Iron Hands jumped on the bandwagon at some point, whether back when they didn't have rules in 1st/2nd edition (beyond the normal Space Marine rules), back when the 3rd edition Index Astartes article came out, back with the Clan Raukaan supplement was released, when the recent codex supplement was released, or at some other point in time. Some may even have jumped on the bandwagon with more of a lore focus (rather than rules). Some players simply jumped on the bandwagon a lot earlier, and they haven't fallen off the bandwagon (yet). That doesn't make more recent fans of the Chapter inferior in any way.

 

The best thing to do with this discussion is to turn it into something constructive: What alternative Iron Hands army lists can players use in order to represent characterful (in terms of the Iron Hands Chapter) and effective [on the tabletop] forces?

[Guest Iron Father Bahadur]

 

 

Been playing iron hands close to 20 years. My fav models have been since 8th started gravis armor and repulsor. Up until now everyone was like - lol nice meme list. Now everyone thinks I’m trying to be that guy.

 

Weird position to be in :|

Well, in case anyone comes weird, I'd just throw ancient IH minis at them, preferably the metal ones.

 

Same with my black-red IH (that I started pre-V2 rumors) - if anyone criticizes the paint scheme as not being true IH, I can hurt their eyes with old 4th edition minis. The paint results of trying to do pure black-and-metal are the reason I haven't ever painted pure black again.

Most of my old 3rd ed, because none of my 2nd ed survived many moves, parents etc, I keep at home. But! I’ve been packing an old dreadnought and a couple tacticals just for proof ;)

[brÖtherIrön]

 

The inherent problem with Feirros and the Leviathan is that they WILL become more expensive.

One of the essential failings of the statement above is that it doesn't correspond with the topic title:

 

"Feirros is NOT worth it and Leviathans"

 

To be sure, judging by the clamor on the internet, Feirros and Leviathans totally look like they're "worth it" to many players. All of that, of course, depends upon each individual's objectives, so there's no objective conclusion about whether or not Feirros and Leviathans are "worth it."

 

The actual argument being made is that the "current" Internet standard Iron Hands army list featuring Feirros and Leviathans will be affected if/when GW changes the rules, points costs, or both. Regardless, things will adjust over time as additional armies' rules are released, new units and rules become available, and metas change.

 

Also, aspersions about bandwagoners and the like are elitist and have no place here. Everyone that plays Iron Hands jumped on the bandwagon at some point, whether back when they didn't have rules in 1st/2nd edition (beyond the normal Space Marine rules), back when the 3rd edition Index Astartes article came out, back with the Clan Raukaan supplement was released, when the recent codex supplement was released, or at some other point in time. Some may even have jumped on the bandwagon with more of a lore focus (rather than rules). Some players simply jumped on the bandwagon a lot earlier, and they haven't fallen off the bandwagon (yet). That doesn't make more recent fans of the Chapter inferior in any way.

 

The best thing to do with this discussion is to turn it into something constructive: What alternative Iron Hands army lists can players use in order to represent characterful (in terms of the Iron Hands Chapter) and effective [on the tabletop] forces?

 

I really appreciate thoughtful comments like yours or from "Iron Father Ferrum".

 

I just posted MY version of an objective based game with "Iron Hands, Turn 2 Champs, Tourney List".

 

A hidden part of me kinda enjoyed the "underdog" feeling Iron Hands had through multiple editions.

 

For me still the most striking part of Feirros is his Warlord Trait which is so much love for the fluff of the Iron Hands but is meh on him and people miss a lot out to use him.

 

For me Iron Hands was and is a faction you "have to love" since rules wise it often was harder to play than others.

 

"With steel we are stronger, but without a soul we are nothing" a good and fitting albeit fictional quote from Iron Hands.

 

It was and is so bewildering to me this "soulless" repeating of Feirros+Levi+3xRepulsor or 10xDreads.

 

And we still have to see if these "standard" lists will win cutthroat tournaments.