Feirros is NOT worth it and Leviathans

[Kallas]

For me still the most striking part of Feirros is his Warlord Trait which is so much love for the fluff of the Iron Hands but is meh on him and people miss a lot out to use him.

 

Um, Feirros doesn't have to be the Warlord. Using Feirros is absolutely not forcing one into using a big castle, it just means that you're spending 110pts (a measly amount for all of his buffs) to buff up something. And generally, most people want to bring something that he can buff up; so realistically, he's almost never a waste - even if you're bringing only infantry (at that point, his only waste is his repairs; and he's still well worth 110pts for all of his stuff even ignoring the repairs!)

[Exilyth]

Feirros is worth it for all the buffs - if you bring units benefitiing from said buffs, which is highly probable since any vehicle benefits.

 

Now, the Leviathan on the other hand - too many eggs in one basket imho.

[ERJAK]

The inherent problem with Feirros and the Leviathan is that they WILL become more expensive.

 

Imagine both units get the Girlyman-/Castellan-Treatment with a 50pts or respectively 100pts increase with the Leviathan.

 

The tournaments I attend wont allow Index Units, so no Techmarine on a bike for me. I thought long and hard about even a simple Techmarine for 45pts.

 

It is hard to stay mobile with a 6" model and even worse with this NEW 5" Primaris Mustache-Abomination called Feirros.

 

Imagine how much better Iron Hands hands will become if we, the Iron Tenth seek a strong midfield presence or even frontline assaults instead of

 

"hurr-durr-we have are the new Girlyman-Castle and u cannot touch my triple executioners or my suddenly new favourite Leviathans".

 

With leaving Feirros out of the game we can do so much hammer time. I often use a Master-Crafted Damage 4 hammer, Jump Pack Chapter Master 5 hits

 

in and Jump out or glue him to another unit I dont want to shoot.

 

I would strongly advise to make best use of "Student of History"-Trait without Feirros, stop this nonsense repeating same 3 lists over and over again.

 

Use the advantage of Iron Hands without maximising on simple ideas. Dont let yourselft fooled you cannot be outplayed on objectives.

 

Logic and cold fury is the creed of Iron Hands and not this whimpish Tau-Girlyman-Caste-up-behaviour.

 

With Iron Hands you can be VERY creative.

 

Make the Iron 10th proud and ignore the bandwagoners who "always loved, White Scars(7ed), Salamanders(early 8ed), Ultramarine fanbois (because Girlyman) and soon maybe the new Dorn boys with their supplement to come).

Leviathan+Feirros+leiutenant is 500ish points. That leaves 1500pts of list to do whatever you want. You can have a strong midfield presence and a Leviathan corner. Even if they get nerfed, it'll remain a strong option to secure your backfield.

 

The rest is hysterical crying and nonsense.

Edited October 3, 2019 by ERJAK

[Iron Father Ferrum]

=][= Keep it civil or I'm breaking out the plasma cannon. =][=

[RandomMarine]

Tbh as someone who has a 2 Repulsor executioners and 2 leviathans neither of which are the "optimal"dual storm cannons and the iron father. I can build easily a equally face melting tough to beat list without any of those 5 models that will win 85% of games but the deathball list is that hyper optimised list that is designed to win tournaments without other consideration including actually being fun to play or play against

 

Yeah the iron father is to cheap and the leviathan is too durable when using IH rules and needs a fix. IMO the Ironfather goes upto 160 and they change the FW relic keyword so healing abilities only heal 1 max( fluff reason being relics they are hard fix quickly)

[Lord_Caerolion]

The inherent problem with Feirros and the Leviathan is that they WILL become more expensive. 

 

Imagine both  units get the Girlyman-/Castellan-Treatment with a 50pts or respectively 100pts increase with the Leviathan.

 

The tournaments I attend wont allow Index Units, so no Techmarine on a bike for me. I thought long and hard about even a simple Techmarine for 45pts.

 

It is hard to stay mobile with a 6" model and even worse with this NEW 5" Primaris Mustache-Abomination called Feirros.

 

Imagine how much better Iron Hands hands will become if we, the Iron Tenth seek a strong midfield presence or even frontline assaults instead of 

 

"hurr-durr-we have are the new Girlyman-Castle and u cannot touch my triple executioners or my suddenly new favourite Leviathans".

 

With leaving Feirros out of the game we can do so much hammer time. I often use a Master-Crafted Damage 4 hammer, Jump Pack Chapter Master 5 hits 

 

in and Jump out or glue him to another unit I dont want to shoot.

 

I would strongly advise to make best use of "Student of History"-Trait without Feirros,  stop this nonsense repeating same 3 lists over and over again.

 

Use the advantage of Iron Hands without maximising on simple ideas. Dont let yourselft fooled you cannot be outplayed on objectives.

 

Logic and cold fury is the creed of Iron Hands and not this whimpish Tau-Girlyman-Caste-up-behaviour.

 

With Iron Hands you can be VERY creative.

 

Make the Iron 10th proud and ignore the bandwagoners who "always loved, White Scars(7ed), Salamanders(early 8ed), Ultramarine fanbois (because Girlyman) and soon maybe the new Dorn boys with their supplement to come). 

 

So let me get this straight... You're posting a gatekeeping thread, accusing others of being "hurr-durr" bandwagoners, and accusing them of using flavour-of-the-month net lists, when your example "see, have a look what OTHER cool thing we can do" is just a standard Captain Slam? You've basically said "hey guys, don't use the same standard Iron Hands cookie-cutter list, use the generic Space Marine cookie-cutter list!"

[CCE1981]

Doing everything you can to make the Leviathan survive is nuts, you don’t have to do that. Just the Leviathan is hard to kill, add in the Stratagem to half damage and he gets to crazy levels. 303 pts, 1CP for the first turn AT against him and deal with everything else. He’ll take all the AT your opponent threw at him at that point anyway.

[brÖtherIrön]

 

The inherent problem with Feirros and the Leviathan is that they WILL become more expensive. 

 

Imagine both  units get the Girlyman-/Castellan-Treatment with a 50pts or respectively 100pts increase with the Leviathan.

 

The tournaments I attend wont allow Index Units, so no Techmarine on a bike for me. I thought long and hard about even a simple Techmarine for 45pts.

 

It is hard to stay mobile with a 6" model and even worse with this NEW 5" Primaris Mustache-Abomination called Feirros.

 

Imagine how much better Iron Hands hands will become if we, the Iron Tenth seek a strong midfield presence or even frontline assaults instead of 

 

"hurr-durr-we have are the new Girlyman-Castle and u cannot touch my triple executioners or my suddenly new favourite Leviathans".

 

With leaving Feirros out of the game we can do so much hammer time. I often use a Master-Crafted Damage 4 hammer, Jump Pack Chapter Master 5 hits 

 

in and Jump out or glue him to another unit I dont want to shoot.

 

I would strongly advise to make best use of "Student of History"-Trait without Feirros,  stop this nonsense repeating same 3 lists over and over again.

 

Use the advantage of Iron Hands without maximising on simple ideas. Dont let yourselft fooled you cannot be outplayed on objectives.

 

Logic and cold fury is the creed of Iron Hands and not this whimpish Tau-Girlyman-Caste-up-behaviour.

 

With Iron Hands you can be VERY creative.

 

Make the Iron 10th proud and ignore the bandwagoners who "always loved, White Scars(7ed), Salamanders(early 8ed), Ultramarine fanbois (because Girlyman) and soon maybe the new Dorn boys with their supplement to come). 

 

So let me get this straight... You're posting a gatekeeping thread, accusing others of being "hurr-durr" bandwagoners, and accusing them of using flavour-of-the-month net lists, when your example "see, have a look what OTHER cool thing we can do" is just a standard Captain Slam? You've basically said "hey guys, don't use the same standard Iron Hands cookie-cutter list, use the generic Space Marine cookie-cutter list!"

 

My non-Primaris List that I recently provided is a non-typical List that served me well against various problems other competitive armies provided. First one captain is not a captain slam and second the other units in their flexibility and mobility is not seen very often. I play my list with generic units, so WITHOUT Feirros but I use it to its fullest potential with the benefits and strategems Iron Hands provide. Do you often see, double Librarians, Sicaran Battle Tanks, Plasma Vanguards, the Trusty Sternguard with Iron Hands or a simple Melee Contemptor? Single Dreadnought Lists? Chaplains? Meltas en masse? Single walking Tac Squads with Missile Launchers that are mobile? My "accusation" stands. I am still waiting for people to experiment with Vindicators, Attack Bikes, Land Speeders, or Pod Assaults, etc. In my humble opinion there is too less talk about other other units AND the History Captain.

[Panzer]

I honestly think people are overestimating about how much effort or ressources people talk when talking about the Leviathan thing.

You take the Leviathan because he's good, the Stratagem only makes him better.

You take Feirros because he's good, being able to support other already good units only makes him better.

You turn 2-3 small Dreads into characters because it's literally the best protection in the game apart from flyers with -3 to-hit and durability has always been their main issue.

 

That's what, like 600p of one character and some almost invulnerable vehicles with good firepower that covers most of your needs on their own. Still about 2/3rd of your list to do whatever you want with. Throw in a Librarian because being able to deny the witch is always good and the psychic discipline synergises well with the above.

 

I don't think the Iron Stone is even needed most of the time since your smaller Dreads shouldn't take damage anyway and if the Leviathan is in danger you just throw the half-damage Stratagem on him. Whether he takes 3 or 2 damage from a full strength Lascannon is a minor difference if you can just repair him with flat 3 wounds anyway.

[brÖtherIrön]

Doing everything you can to make the Leviathan survive is nuts, you don’t have to do that. Just the Leviathan is hard to kill, add in the Stratagem to half damage and he gets to crazy levels. 303 pts, 1CP for the first turn AT against him and deal with everything else. He’ll take all the AT your opponent threw at him at that point anyway.

The Stormcannon Dread is basically 2.5 Dakka-Autocannon Dreads about in points and damage output. With a 4++ which is great. Of course it hurts to ignore him but any decent player should ignore him. So I kinda think that your opponents AT weapons still hit your other stuff. It would also hurt every round he is NOT shooting because, he is VERY short ranged, can be tagged in melee. It is not wrong to play him but it is a bit like someone else already said "too many eggs in a basket". I have not seen a list in which a Leviathan is a vital or great element of a list and I only measure a units worth in a list and not in a vacuum. My opinion. If you have him, play him but for ME in MANY scenarios he is not worth it.

Edited October 4, 2019 by brÖtherIrön

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

The inherent problem with Feirros and the Leviathan is that they WILL become more expensive. 

 

Imagine both  units get the Girlyman-/Castellan-Treatment with a 50pts or respectively 100pts increase with the Leviathan.

 

The tournaments I attend wont allow Index Units, so no Techmarine on a bike for me. I thought long and hard about even a simple Techmarine for 45pts.

 

It is hard to stay mobile with a 6" model and even worse with this NEW 5" Primaris Mustache-Abomination called Feirros.

 

Imagine how much better Iron Hands hands will become if we, the Iron Tenth seek a strong midfield presence or even frontline assaults instead of 

 

"hurr-durr-we have are the new Girlyman-Castle and u cannot touch my triple executioners or my suddenly new favourite Leviathans".

 

With leaving Feirros out of the game we can do so much hammer time. I often use a Master-Crafted Damage 4 hammer, Jump Pack Chapter Master 5 hits 

 

in and Jump out or glue him to another unit I dont want to shoot.

 

I would strongly advise to make best use of "Student of History"-Trait without Feirros,  stop this nonsense repeating same 3 lists over and over again.

 

Use the advantage of Iron Hands without maximising on simple ideas. Dont let yourselft fooled you cannot be outplayed on objectives.

 

Logic and cold fury is the creed of Iron Hands and not this whimpish Tau-Girlyman-Caste-up-behaviour.

 

With Iron Hands you can be VERY creative.

 

Make the Iron 10th proud and ignore the bandwagoners who "always loved, White Scars(7ed), Salamanders(early 8ed), Ultramarine fanbois (because Girlyman) and soon maybe the new Dorn boys with their supplement to come). 

 

So let me get this straight... You're posting a gatekeeping thread, accusing others of being "hurr-durr" bandwagoners, and accusing them of using flavour-of-the-month net lists, when your example "see, have a look what OTHER cool thing we can do" is just a standard Captain Slam? You've basically said "hey guys, don't use the same standard Iron Hands cookie-cutter list, use the generic Space Marine cookie-cutter list!"

 

My non-Primaris List that I recently provided is a non-typical List that served me well against various problems other competitive armies provided. First one captain is not a captain slam and second the other units in their flexibility and mobility is not seen very often. I play my list with generic units, so WITHOUT Feirros but I use it to its fullest potential with the benefits and strategems Iron Hands provide. Do you often see, double Librarians, Sicaran Battle Tanks, Plasma Vanguards, the Trusty Sternguard with Iron Hands or a simple Melee Contemptor? Single Dreadnought Lists? Chaplains? Meltas en masse? Single walking Tac Squads with Missile Launchers that are mobile? My "accusation" stands. I am still waiting for people to experiment with Vindicators, Attack Bikes, Land Speeders, or Pod Assaults, etc. In my humble opinion there is too less talk about other other units AND the History Captain.

 

 

No, "one Captain" isn't a Captain Slam, but a Master-Crafted Thunder Hammer Jump Pack Captain/Chapter Master absolutely is. Sure, he's not a Slamguinius, but he's absolutely a Captain Slam, no questions about it. And yes, we see Sicaran Battle Tanks used just as much as Contemptors before, they're another of the highly-regarded Space Marine units.

 

Waiting for people to talk about Land Speeders etc? There's already several topics of discussion about how Flyers are major beneficiaries of the new changes, as are Land Speeders and Attack Bikes. We've been discussing how Iron Hands are one of the most mobile Chapters now. You're not pointing out anything new.

[brÖtherIrön]

I honestly think people are overestimating about how much effort or ressources people talk when talking about the Leviathan thing.

You take the Leviathan because he's good, the Stratagem only makes him better.

You take Feirros because he's good, being able to support other already good units only makes him better.

You turn 2-3 small Dreads into characters because it's literally the best protection in the game apart from flyers with -3 to-hit and durability has always been their main issue.

 

That's what, like 600p of one character and some almost invulnerable vehicles with good firepower that covers most of your needs on their own. Still about 2/3rd of your list to do whatever you want with. Throw in a Librarian because being able to deny the witch is always good and the psychic discipline synergises well with the above.

 

I don't think the Iron Stone is even needed most of the time since your smaller Dreads shouldn't take damage anyway and if the Leviathan is in danger you just throw the half-damage Stratagem on him. Whether he takes 3 or 2 damage from a full strength Lascannon is a minor difference if you can just repair him with flat 3 wounds anyway.

Just think, when will you repair him, backfield when u cannot hit anything because out of range or when he waddles turn 2 to be charged as well as Feirros which has to stay 1" NEXT to him? On a funny side note it is awkward to see this titan of war, this behemoth, this LEVIATHAN(a biblic creature) dwarfed next to the beer belly Redemptor. I did not see many players do well with their untargetable character dreads. You should enjoy one time with Flyer Circus(Eldar), CSG and Cheesetodes. But what bothers me often is this "do whatever you want" with the rest of your list. The rest is winning the game actually. If you are winning.

Edited October 4, 2019 by brÖtherIrön

[Panzer]

 

Doing everything you can to make the Leviathan survive is nuts, you don’t have to do that. Just the Leviathan is hard to kill, add in the Stratagem to half damage and he gets to crazy levels. 303 pts, 1CP for the first turn AT against him and deal with everything else. He’ll take all the AT your opponent threw at him at that point anyway.

The Stormcannon Dread is basically 2.5 Dakka-Autocannon Dreads about in points and damage output. With a 4++ which is great. Of course it hurts to ignore him but any decent player should ignore him. So I kinda think that your opponents AT weapons still hit your other stuff. It would also hurt every round he is NOT shooting because, he is VERY short ranged, can be tagged in melee. It is not wrong to play him but it is a bit like someone else already said "too many eggs in a basket". I have not seen a list in which a Leviathan is a vital or great element of a list and I only measure a units worth in a list and not in a vacuum. My opinion. If you have him, play him but for ME in MANY scenarios he is not worth it.

 

 

24" is not short ranged. You might be confusing that with the Grav-flux bombard which is only 18".

It's funny you say you look at a units worth in a list and not in a vacuum while you apparently disregard all the synergy IH offer for such a unit. 

[Panzer]

 

I honestly think people are overestimating about how much effort or ressources people talk when talking about the Leviathan thing.

You take the Leviathan because he's good, the Stratagem only makes him better.

You take Feirros because he's good, being able to support other already good units only makes him better.

You turn 2-3 small Dreads into characters because it's literally the best protection in the game apart from flyers with -3 to-hit and durability has always been their main issue.

 

That's what, like 600p of one character and some almost invulnerable vehicles with good firepower that covers most of your needs on their own. Still about 2/3rd of your list to do whatever you want with. Throw in a Librarian because being able to deny the witch is always good and the psychic discipline synergises well with the above.

 

I don't think the Iron Stone is even needed most of the time since your smaller Dreads shouldn't take damage anyway and if the Leviathan is in danger you just throw the half-damage Stratagem on him. Whether he takes 3 or 2 damage from a full strength Lascannon is a minor difference if you can just repair him with flat 3 wounds anyway.

Just think, when will you repair him, backfield when u cannot hit anything because out of range or when he waddles turn 2 to be charged as well as Feirros which has to stay 1" NEXT to him? On a funny side note it is awkward to see this titan of war, this behemoth, this LEVIATHAN(a biblic creature) dwarfed next to the beer belly Redemptor. I did not see many players do well with their untargetable character dreads. You should enjoy one time with Flyer Circus(Eldar), CSG and Cheesetodes. But what bothers me often is this "do whatever you want" with the rest of your list. The rest is winning the game actually. If you are winning.

 

 

If you can't hit anything with a 24" range weapon + 8" movement and get charged turn 2 you are a terrible player and deserve to lose no matter the list. Put away your strawmans and offer actual arguments for once.

[TrawlingCleaner]

As others have said there have been plenty of threads on the viability of other choices now with the supplement, Land speeders, bikes and flyers have all been brought up with how much better they are now. 65 points for 2 heavy bolters on a LS moving 16" is great and very viable. A smash captain with bike/JP with the Student of history, was one of the first combos that were pointed out by a majority of people, not hugely original. Tac marines are very viable and now with doctrines etc, they're actually quite cheap. I can see them making a come back from certain chapters.

 

The meta changes quite slowly and the current lists that are seen are only really there because they're the most obvious and pretty darn efficient. There are lists that'll blow it out of the water and lists that it'll dominate, why would someone change their entire list to counter an Iron Hands list when they'll be a minority and (currently) completely different to the majority of the meta). None of your suggestions so far have been that original to be honest, and really just all round provocative. It would be a lot better if this thread was instead about thoughts on great units that might be over looked (a really good example is MajorNese's Hidden Gems thread) or a thread on other ways to run competitive lists.

[MajorNese]

Doing everything you can to make the Leviathan survive is nuts, you don’t have to do that. Just the Leviathan is hard to kill, add in the Stratagem to half damage and he gets to crazy levels. 303 pts, 1CP for the first turn AT against him and deal with everything else. He’ll take all the AT your opponent threw at him at that point anyway.

The strat already makes him resilient against the usual 2D and d3D weaponry. Ironstone seems like a bonus against the d6D stuff.

Throwing in Feirros just to do repairs...well, considering his other abilities are entirely wasted on a levi, I'd find a better use for him elsewhere. Just a generic techmarine with relic and the repair WL trait should do the job just as well, yet handing out invuls to any unit/vehicle is something Astartes sorely need.

 

 

I have not seen a List in which a Leviathan is a vital or great element of a list and I only measure a units worth in a list and not in a vacuum.

Since I've been on the receiving end of levis (anything between 1 and 5) regularly - yes, a Levi is worth it. Even more so when it's unkillable.

24" is enough to cover the entire midfield turn 1 or 2, and his guns are ridiculously (and reliably) good against anything that doesn't reduce/half the damage taken. Without strat and relic, it is possible to kill a levi, but it will take time. With both, few can kill it, making any further redundancy levis unnecessary, leaving lots of points for the rest of the army.

 

While I expect GW to change how Ironstone and Duty Eternal interact, any nerfs to levis won't happen just because we can make one near invincible.

Back in the day, clustering one or more levis around Girlyman was common around here when creating insta-hard lists. They did empty the midfield by rerolling everything, their overwatch was better than current IH due to all rerolls, and they were able to walk out of CC and still shoot. Everything in our codex was balanced around the question "Is it OP when spammed and next to Girlyman?", and the levi never went down a single point.

 

Now that people are discussing about including a single leviathan, I'm just glad I will never again face more than one per game.

That's not a nerf-worthy game changer, though it is a (literally) bulletproof investment when building lists. Questioning the effectiveness of it is somewhat moot - it's the unit with the single most overwhelming mathematical evidence of its effectiveness right now. Levis have been one of the few units you regularly saw at tournaments, as it has always been one of the few damn good units in a mediocre codex.

 

 

The inherent problem with Feirros and the Leviathan is that they WILL become more expensive. 

 

Imagine both  units get the Girlyman-/Castellan-Treatment with a 50pts or respectively 100pts increase with the Leviathan.

So...you prove your opinion of both not being worth it, by assuming both will get massive points increases. Which they will definitely get in your opinion, which means you think they are too good for their current points, or, in other words, "worth it".

And the number one unit you quoted to do well (MC thunder hammer jump pack captain) is the one unit that had its points increased due to being too good and too popular, contradicting your demands to "be VERY creative" instead of repeating what everyone else does.

So please, stop telling people what they are allowed to play to not be bandwagoners.

 

We get it, you don't like primaris, you don't like Feirros, and you don't like what everyone else is playing.

While I'm all in when it comes to non-mainstream lists, questioning the effectiveness of these units is rather pointless, as there is mathematical evidence of them working.

Unlike the less straight-forward buffs like RG deployment shenanigans, which are hard to put into numbers, pure firepower and resilience are clear on that matter.

[Khornestar]

Could the original post not have been created entirely without intentionally being insulting? I have yet to see OP address this at all.

 

This is a game of toy soldiers, and we all love it for various reasons and engage with it in various ways. This might be an unpopular opinion - and it is not intended as an insult -  but your choice of army or faction does not make you special or entitled to insult others who approach it differently.

[faithonwings]

Could the original post not have been created entirely without intentionally being insulting? I have yet to see OP address this at all.

 

This is a game of toy soldiers, and we all love it for various reasons and engage with it in various ways. This might be an unpopular opinion - and it is not intended as an insult - but your choice of army or faction does not make you special or entitled to insult others who approach it differently.

hear hear. This is everyone's game. It's like every other game in the world. If you don't like how someone is playing it, find someone else to play it with and don't think less of the first. There is no reason to. Everybody had a right to be him/ herself.