Are Ultras the worst supplement?

[Ishagu]

Sure. I think all the chapters are similarly accurate and damaging thanks to the auras that everyone has access to, in combination with many units that don't suffer hit penalties.

 

Raven Guard and White Scars can get into optimum range with various units better, it makes all sorts of units viable that otherwise struggle due to slow speed/expensive transports. Raven Guard have a superior chapter tactic to the Ultras.

 

Salamanders have a great chapter tactic and are far more damaging, and not just in close range. They have great defensive psychic powers and access to the "Ultramarines doctrine" through a 1CP Strat.

 

Iron Hands are the most similar to Ultras but their CT+Doctrine combination is better, and they are more durable and arguably mobile due to effect starting on turn 1.

 

Imperial Fists have amazing damage output but it must be said that it relies on certain weapons and units, and I don't particularly like bring funneled into one super effective style so I'm not a big fan myself, but there is high offence here.

 

I think Salamanders, IH and IF can outdamage Ultras or take more hits.

WS and RG can outplay them and deliver a bigger punch quicker.

[Kallas]

I would agree with crazyterran that Ultramarines are second or third best.

 

We have a lot of useful, less situational stratagems/Warlord Traits/Relics that can be applied in several circumstances:

1. Adept of the Codex is still useful, as keeping CP reserves up is still strong. Alongside Mind Raid/Scryer's Gaze, we can keep using our stratagems for pretty much the whole game.
2. Nobility Made Manifest is pretty solid for dogpiling a strong enemy melee unit, or at least forcing them to absorb much more overwatch (which can be very strong with a Chapter Master around). An Intercessors block of 20-30 can pump out a lot of overwatch and then jump in with a heap of melee attacks.
3. Standard of Macragge Inviolate is also pretty strong, giving out units an edge in melee; again, works very well with the Intercessor core of an army, but also dials up stronger melee units like Aggressors or Vanguard Veterans. Double it up with the Reliquary of Vengeance and suddenly your Intercessors are pumping out 5A each (6A for Veteran Intercessors)
4. Seal of Oath.
5. Inspiring Command helps spread out when a battle pile isn't as needed, letting more units benefit from strong auras. Toss in the Vox Espiritum for a second aura and that's damn useful. Sons of Guilliman is another stratagem to help when you need/want to spread out, giving your units more reliability without needing to be shackled to characters.
6. Rapid Redeployment. Combined with the Vanguard WLT Lord of Deceit you can play some solid mind games, putting even the Eldar to shame. Shifting up to six units around before the first turn is quite potent, regardless of who gets first turn.
7. Fall Back and Re-engage; very useful stratagem to get units where they need to go without getting bogged down fighting chaff. Especially good on our Aggressors, which are exceptionally strong for us.
8. Defensive Focus: similar to Nobility Made Manifest, where we can pull a Tau trick on them and pour a massive amount of firepower out in overwatch. It basically makes it impossible to avoid Aggressor overwatch by charging something next to them and then tagging them. Add in FBaR and Nobility Made Manifest and suddenly that charge was a huge mistake.
9. Squad Doctrines and Master of Strategy WLT: we're the only Chapter that can tweak our Doctrines like this. We can have Vanguard Veterans with Tactical and Assault Doctrine active (in Turn Three: MoS is in addition) or we can benefit from Devastator for our heavy weapons while a unit of Aggressors hoses down infantry under Tactical. Add in Adaptive Strategy from C:SM and we're able to manipulate our Doctrines to fit exactly what we need.

Ultramarines are definitely not as straightforwardly strong as, say, Iron Hands or Salamanders, but we have a plethora of tools to ensure that our weaknesses are much, much harder to exploit.

[Prot]

I'm still undecided. 

 

I just had a very hard game vs Tau. I took pics, and will write a batrep up so I don't want to spoil it but I never had this much... capability of coming back from losses.

 

I just watched a few crazy games too. I just saw a largely infantry Imperial Fists army nearly table an Admech gunline army in one turn. In fact in turn 1 the IF Intecessor squad with Stalker Bolt Rifles took down Cawl in one round of shooting (Damage 3 Stalkers). Aside from a crazy assault army, I haven't seen AdMech tabled so easily, so quickly. I think it was actually worse than if they faced IH.

 

I just watched a competitive ITC match between a seasoned Tournie player (UM) vs a very longtime Ork player. In 2 turns the Orks had nearly tabled the UM, including 2 Repulsors dead.....

 

The thing is I know it's fun to dissect who's the winner, and who's the loser, but I'm still not convinced. The thing is some of these 'obvoius' choices for other chapters have some hard counters. I think IH for instance is in trouble against a really good GSC player. I think there's a lot of possiblity the UM player is the most difficult army to hard counter. Raven Guard is another that needs to dodge some opponents to make it all work.

 

In the meantime the UM player has a host of directions he can take his army in simply because it doesn't cater to one thing, and that in itself can be very hard to counter with a certain tournament meta. 

 

Maybe in the end this amounts to a 'gate keeper' list. I don't know yet. Too soon to tell.

[Ishagu]

It should be made clear that the Ultras are not weak at all, none of the codex chapters are.

[Captain Idaho]

I actually didn't consider that Master of Strategy is in addition to whatever Doctrine is in play. Good catch!

 

That means Centurions just got pushed up in power. Heavy Bolters with AP-2 and Hurricane Bolters with AP-1 on the same turn... brilliant!

 

***

 

My position is, Ultramarines yes are the weakest if you play the Castle shooting game. My advice is to not do that. ;)

 

Taking combined arms and varied units actually benefits us so Ultramarines players should build those more fluffy lists.

[One Two Wolf]

You have a primarch. You have characters that are crazy good. Stop trying to put everything in one list and just enjoy throwing them forward. Gun lines are not the go. Use your models instead of trying to keep them alive.

 

You have a primarch.

[justicarius6]

A primarch that is pretty much stumbling around, punch drunk from all the wallops he's getting time and again from the nerf-bat.

[One Two Wolf]

How many armies would turn him down.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Guilliman is still awesome.

[brÖtherIrön]

I think Guilliman is undercosted and should even cost more. He is 1 Captain + 1 Lieutenant (both bare) + 3 x 5 Scouts (bare) for 299 pts. If you would instead get this Battalion Detachment you would have to spend 2 out of its 5 CPs to have a Chapter Master. So the CP benefit is equal. He is very compact. You will hardly snipe him. Oh, did we mention he has a 3+ InvulSave and has the Sword of the freaking Vegetable, beloved by all ,  and can REVIVE HIMSELF? He could easily go back to 370 pts and still would be fine. How do you even dare to think about  putting a Primarch as HQ? You basically have the chance for 2 Chapter Masters. Many seasoned, battle hardened Ultra Players also see and maybe appreciate the sometimes subtle ways to play Ultras. It also balances very well, that you have so many unique characters. Ultras are only bad with bad list writing and tactical decisions. You get what you expect I guess. Ravenguard can ruin everyones days but you also have to play it right. Does this make them better or worse than Ultras? I do not think Ultras need a need Christmas so I would stop wishlisting and play with the plenty toys you already have. The whole ranking is to some extend absurd since the answers you seek (do I play top tier  or botom tier crap) is factored with so many aspects to take into consideration.

[Ishagu]

No, he is too expensive. He doesn't fill a mandatory HQ slot so you need to take multiple other characters, meaning your army is lower on models and thus output.

 

Imperial Fists can get the Guilliman aura on an 80 point character, and you can make a generic hero that costs under 100 points hit as hard as Guilliman in combat, and move around quicker + use transports.

 

If Guilliman was brought down to 300 points or left as is but moved to the HQ slot I would be happy with that.

[Subtleknife]

Completely disagree. RG is over costed in the current slot he takes. If you take RG you will likely be taking a battalion which RG cannot fill so you have to sink more points into filling that. Imperial fists also simulate his aura for 80pts as Ishagu mentions. So yes I do 'dare' suggest RG needs some changes to his character because there is little reason to take him atm in an efficient list.

[emperorpants]

I think Guilliman is undercosted and should even cost more. He is 1 Captain + 1 Lieutenant (both bare) + 3 x 5 Scouts (bare) for 299 pts. If you would instead get this Battalion Detachment you would have to spend 2 out of its 5 CPs to have a Chapter Master. So the CP benefit is equal. He is very compact. You will hardly snipe him. Oh, did we mention he has a 3+ InvulSave and has the Sword of the freaking Vegetable, beloved by all ,  and can REVIVE HIMSELF? He could easily go back to 370 pts and still would be fine. How do you even dare to think about  putting a Primarch as HQ? You basically have the chance for 2 Chapter Masters. Many seasoned, battle hardened Ultra Players also see and maybe appreciate the sometimes subtle ways to play Ultras. It also balances very well, that you have so many unique characters. Ultras are only bad with bad list writing and tactical decisions. You get what you expect I guess. Ravenguard can ruin everyones days but you also have to play it right. Does this make them better or worse than Ultras? I do not think Ultras need a need Christmas so I would stop wishlisting and play with the plenty toys you already have. The whole ranking is to some extend absurd since the answers you seek (do I play top tier  or botom tier crap) is factored with so many aspects to take into consideration.

I don't think you understand...this is a fun discussion about how good the ultra's supplement is.  Literally no one has said that Ultras are bad.  They are very, VERY strong.  However, they are very likely the weakest of the supplements.  That doesn't make them bad.  I believe that I myself have said that several times already. 

 

Space marines are very strong right now, so you can be the weakest supplement and still be one of the strongest armies in all of 40k.  Also, it isn't absurd at all to rank the supplement and make tier lists.  It happens literally all the time, with every army.

 

Also, sorry, but Gman isn't a great character right now, just a decent one.  There are plenty of ways to get the same buff aura for cheaper.  You can also make characters that hit just as hard in melee.  Again, for cheaper.  Gman can't be healed, he can't go into ruins, he can't ride in vehicles, he is powerful in melee but it can be replicated, his aura can be replicated, he is over costed for what he does, he is a LOW slot which means you still have spend points on HQs, etc.  His advantages don't outweigh the disadvantages to taking him currently.  Yes, he is a primarch, but that means literally nothing on the tabletop if your rules aren't anything special.

[tychobi]

Ultras are a generals army equipped with a tool for every situation. May prove the strongest supplement over all. I think it will be a while before someone really figures it out.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah it’s really too early to say at this point.

[Prot]

As I’m still undecided I’m still not saying anything other than it is apparent that IH has the market cornered on easy mode for marines. Not to insult IH fans or players but a lot of metrics are coming in now on competitive GTs etc, and Leviathans that don’t die and incredibly potetent flyers don’t require a ton of thought.

 

I watched enough of SoCal this weekend to safely believe GW isn’t done punishing marines for the sins of a few.

 

I know it’s just ITC but GW seems to react a lot to that system.

 

We still don’t have a lot to go by with the newer supplements.

[Ishagu]

It's not even the Iron Hands directly that are dominating some cases, but a custom mixture of chapter traits in combination with the IH doctrine, it would seem.

 

If GW does indeed decide on further rules ammendments I'm hoping that they do so in a measured way. Certain units might be "over-powered" with one chapter but can be perfectly reasonable with another.

 

Lets hope they don't punish the many for the sins of the few!

 

One thing to add, it's starting to become more clear just how strong the Raven Guard and White Scars can be in the hands of skilled players. The extra movement and deployment options are a great strength for Astartes, and not as immediately obvious as some of the strong IH builds.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I doubt there will be much more nerfing if anymore at all except for one of the Salamander stratagems. GW publicly said this would be the best SM codex ever. Just because FLG is on a personal crusade to nerf Marines don’t expect more nerfs. Tau won SoCal today so a lot of the Henny Penny’s saying the sky is falling apparently got it wrong. Just look at a lot of the other broken AH crap we’ve had to deal with this Edition like IK and Aeldari flying circus. Sure the meta is finally starting to see some significant change but it’s all good as far as I’m concerned.

[Prot]

There were a few games I got to see on stream. 

 

I agree with the sentiment that that as 'balanced' as everything has been toted as thus far, I've not fully bought into that. Some would claim that there were a few armies that could win an event, and this equated to balanced even though it was nearly the same builds.

 

I watched a guy play his Orks VS. Iron Hands. I listened to the Ork player repeatedly claim, "this isn't fun." and "they went too far".  Fair enough he was in the heat of a game, but if I'm being 100% honest and I ask myself when I'm playing an 'expert' using extreme competitive eldar Airshow, or Tau drone (yawn), or GSC, or Dark Eldar, or Astra... are these games fun? Usually not so much.

 

Is there excitement in trying to take down heinous xenos at a top table in a tournament? Sure. But it's not the same type of interactive game if you turn it down a notch. GSC appearing out of nowhere with satchel bomb runs that can take down just about anything and zip off into a corner, or a table full of flyers you can't interact with.... or how about shooting at a table full of drones? Is this 'fun'? 

 

I guess it's all subjective. 

 

At the end of the day, I don't see any difference what so ever in any of these non-interactive armies. Whether it be an astra army pounding you to death with a wall of conscripts, or 3 riptides you can't take a wound off of, or an IH Leviathan/Flyers you can't seem to damage. Most of these 'competitive' armies are fairly non-interactive and hit like a truck. 

 

This is the one thing I don't see Ultramarines as. I think  Ultra's will always be beatable, but flexible enough to win. Ultra's simply don't have that non-interactive angle that let's you hit like a truck. Pre-Guillman nerf... perhaps it was there, but pre-nerf Guillman existed in a VERY lethargic Marine meta. If we took 'old' Guillman with the new Ultra rules... wow. That would be crazy good, but it didn't happen.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

 

I agree with the sentiment that that as 'balanced' as everything has been toted as thus far, I've not fully bought into that. Some would claim that there were a few armies that could win an event, and this equated to balanced even though it was nearly the same builds.

 

I watched a guy play his Orks VS. Iron Hands. I listened to the Ork player repeatedly claim, "this isn't fun." and "they went too far". Fair enough he was in the heat of a game, but if I'm being 100% honest and I ask myself when I'm playing an 'expert' using extreme competitive eldar Airshow, or Tau drone (yawn), or GSC, or Dark Eldar, or Astra... are these games fun? Usually not so much...

 

I know I’d just love to play against 15 Smasha Gunz right Prot ? *wink

[Prot]

What a ton of fun that would be! Lol. ( yea that’s the guy)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

And who plays ITC to have fun if you know what I mean? He may have been coached to complain.

[Kallas]

And who plays ITC to have fun if you know what I mean?

 

I mean...I do. I find ITC missions to be way more fun than GW's generally either crap or imbalanced missions; and Maelstrom is awful.

[Ishagu]

ITC are spreading to some local tournaments near me, unfortunately for me this means more netlist abuse

[Aothaine]

Whoa. This thread has reminded me that I am crazy thinking I want to play in ITC. I need to remember to focus on the friendly tournaments. I think Ishagu has it right when he says the CA missions are great. Regardless though, I'm still planning on building my scouts in land speeder storms force. I love highly mobile armies and I really dislike Xenos other than maybe T'au and Tyranids.

 

To the topic at hand though, I think Ultramarines are going to prove to be one of the better factions to play with the new rulesets. They are a swiss army knife. Their lists are going to be varied and strong at the same time so they will be able to build those "all-comers" lists better and most likely play against any opponent better than your typical net-listed Imperial Fists, Iron Hands or Salamanders. 

 

Something else that kind of bugs me about all this talk is that the discussion is revolving around WAAC lists. I am pretty sure that most people on this forum are not WAAC players, and I understand that we as tournament players need to beat those WAAC lists. But sometimes it seems, and this could just be an error on my interpretation, that people are attacking other factions only because their faction has not been updated or they feel their faction is not as good. It seems that they do this before even thinking about what is good about their faction and how their faction can play to beat that new ruleset. 

 

Anyway.. Ultramarines are really good imho. But I do think that RG should never have been nerfed. He is a damned Primarch and the Primarch that is all about tactics. The dude wrote the damned Codex :cuss! So I feel you blue boys on RG. But you have so many good tools to employ with your army that I think it is kind of silly when some of you say that Ultramarines are at the bottom of the supplement pack. 

 

Regardless of all this, I love this community and really enjoy discussing all of these things with everyone!