Are Ultras the worst supplement?

[Kallas]

GW's chapter approved missions are absolutely fantastic.

 

Strongly disagree.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I love them. They are hard mode versus ITC too. ITC you are basically always playing the same mission.

[Prot]

 

And who plays ITC to have fun if you know what I mean?

 

 

I mean...I do. I find ITC missions to be way more fun than GW's generally either crap or imbalanced missions; and Maelstrom is awful.

Strongly disagree ;)

 

I only play ITC when prepping for their tournaments. I find them too repetitive and boring. They invent new issues like Eldar flyers for instance ( they don’t have the same impact in Maelstrom).

 

It’s just a different way of playing. I fully respect some people like ITC. Maelstrom for me, is fairly easy to make competitive. But at the same time you plan your lists far differently. Even Tau which have to be one of the most boring match ups for my Ultramarines are in tough castling with drones in Maelstrom. Maelstrom forces reactions to a set of dynamic circumstances. It’s not perfect, but easy to adjust for fair play. I love making lists with Ultramarines for Maelstrom. And maybe it’s just a playstyle preference, but if ITC were our everyday game here, I would definitely be done with 40k comptitively.

 

We gotta accept that 40k is different for a lot of folks. Even as we could have this discussion about ‘what’s best’ for our Ultramarines, we are in the minority. People who play purely for fun far out weigh us.

 

In part that’s why I stuck out Ultramarines all these years... if someone wants to play a narrative game against the Primarch, I’m all for it. Ultramarines are great for building storylines in campaigns and narrative play.

 

A few years ago when the big shake down was happening, and at that moment Guilliman was coming out in the Triumvirate pack! A very exciting time, and our GW was playing through this giant narrative GW campaign out of the books at that time. Guess who was the only Ultramarines player that could field Guilliman for the final story arch?

 

I’ll be honest the end story machine was skewed against our side of the battle. Chaos pressed hard with tons of Daemon forces, Thousand Sons, chaos marines etc.... I remember the ending... it was a handful of Ultramarines, Celestine, Guilliman, Cawl, and AdMech vs, the chaos hordes trying to escape before the battle cruiser fell to Chaos. I’ll remember that for a while. Yea it was ‘narrative’ but a blast. The sort of event that has you naming your dudes for moments of heroism!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s all about the narrative aspect and the immersion. That’s what’s kept me in the hobby all these years.

[Ishagu]

I think you guys have hit it on the head with the ITC missions - they are basically all the same.

 

Modified maelstrom CA missions is the best way to create a varied meta that rewards balanced play and tactics, but the FLG guys are dead set on pushing the ITC missions for their circuit. I'm puzzled as to why they continue to do so now. Back in 7th it was absolutely necessary as the game was a total mess otherwise lol

[Closet Skeleton]

What does 'worst supplement' even mean? I think IF and Ultramarines are about even but IF's have a pretty lackluster supplement and would rate the Ultramarine doctrine as better especially for a pure primaris army.

 

Calgar, Tigurius, Cassius and Cronus are part of the supplement and more powerful than most of the stuff in the non-Iron Hands supplements.

 

ITC are spreading to some local tournaments near me, unfortunately for me this means more netlist abuse

[Ishagu]

Modified maelstrom is better, and this game isn't just about pure skill.

Luck is still a prevailing factor. This is a dice game involving chance and people need to remember that.

 

ITC does indeed involve more player control, and as a result every mission is near identical and spam lists can score the same points in every game.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Ishagu

[Prot]

So there you have it... we all have a different take on it. Shocking? Nope. 

 

But let's get back to the topic please. I'll be pruning any further back and forth about mission quality. (Please feel free to start a new topic in Amicus).

[Master Antaeus]

One of the reasons I love playing UM tactics and doctrine ability (I play Soul Drinkers using UM tactics) is that there is some subtlety to how they play on the table. They take one turn to see what they're up against and then they become the most slippery, liquid army.

 

Instead of point and click, they have a toolbox and their playstyle rewards you knowing the codex and the rules back to front. They play exactly as I would imagine an army of prodigy children who all went to war college to be space marines would play.

[Prot]

There is one other thing I keep coming back to that’s hard to deny..... our ability to back away from a Fist fight and still shoot at a minor penalty. I know it’s not game breaking but it’s darn useful when you know it’s always going to be there.

 

For example we might have the best reason to take a Crusader LR. No one like shooting at them and although everyone acts like others have the market cornered on Centurions/ assault Centurions I think we have an argument for them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think we have the best tactical stratagems and the WLT for ûber heroic intervention is clutch.

[Aothaine]

There is one other thing I keep coming back to that’s hard to deny..... our ability to back away from a Fist fight and still shoot at a minor penalty. I know it’s not game breaking but it’s darn useful when you know it’s always going to be there.

 

For example we might have the best reason to take a Crusader LR. No one like shooting at them and although everyone acts like others have the market cornered on Centurions/ assault Centurions I think we have an argument for them.

 

From the batreps I've read and seen so far it seems that the new Primaris are hard to move and a 10-man squad is difficult to wipe without a specialized unit against them. This fallback and fire on everything is amazing and I think is under appreciated. You pretty much give every unit in your army the fly keyword. This is pretty crazy. It is one of the many reasons why I think that people saying this supplement is the weakest just don't have enough experience with the supplement yet. UM seem like they specialize in ground pounding to me. If I was going to build a UM list I would have minimum four units of 10-man Intercessors, at least one unit of bolter focused Aggressors and a mixture of the other units as well and not focus so much on vehicles. Vehicles are good too, but I think that UM just work with infantry so damn well that it is a no-brainer to not maximize this. 

[Ishagu]

I definitely appreciate it, but it's true value is hard to gauge.

I have played against tough armies, like Tau or Dark Eldar, and it never came into play, not once.

 

Other times I have been able to use it to frustrate opponents by tagging their units, but those same opponents learn from experience and don't fall into the same traps as easily.

 

There have been situations in which my units have been assaulted, my opponent has rolled poorly so they have survived, and have than been able to withdraw from combat and shoot. This is indeed valuable, but it's also reactive and not a proactive tool to accomplish the mission.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Ishagu

[Aothaine]

I definitely appreciate it, but it's true value is hard to gauge.

I have played against tough armies, like Tau or Dark Eldar, and it never came into play, not once.

 

Other times I have been able to use it to frustrate opponents by tagging their units, but those same opponents learn from experience and don't fall into the same traps as easily.

 

There have been situations in which my units have been assaulted, my opponent has rolled poorly so they have survived, and have than been able to withdraw from combat and shoot. This is indeed valuable, but it's also reactive and not a proactive tool to accomplish the mission.

 

I think I might disagree that it is not a pro-active ability. Against shooting enemy units you can shoot in your phase, assault the enemy, if they stay in combat or put more into the fight you can then fallback on your turn and shoot them again. Might be an interesting way to disrupt enemy firing. Because that enemy unit will now be stuck with two decisions, do they fallback and not shoot or do they stay in and let you fallback on your turn and shoot?

 

I can see a ton of uses for this. Say they stay in melee and have like 1-2 models left thinking they are tying up your unit of maybe 3-5 intercessors that are left. But they are not. Because you can still fallback and split your shooting to not waste potential dmg output.

 

This is a really good ability that I think needs more discussion. 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Aothaine

[Prot]

I definitely appreciate it, but it's true value is hard to gauge.

I have played against tough armies, like Tau or Dark Eldar, and it never came into play, not once.

 

 

 

So my take on our inherent Chapter Tactic is that it comes into play every time I make a list.

 

For instance if I'm making a list that has pure shooty dreads in it, I don't have to worry too much about body guards, or making an exit strategy for close combat issues. I can simply make that list knowing I can retreat and fire.

 

Sometimes this lets me take risks with units like.. Landraiders. Landraiders are nearly a dead idea to some factions because as we know the Repulsors are not only great gunships, but can fly. Our LR's can still retreat, and can't be bumped out of action by a cultist. (I still love the LR's 2+ save.)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s one of the reasons I go all infantry.

[Cornishman]

Worst I think depends very much on how you are trying to measure it.

From a competitive perspective perhaps? I really don't know I don't do tournaments.

 

From the ability to turn up and have a fun casual game it does a fine job. Being lower on the power scale helps avoid the situation where by you and your opponent turn up, and despite your best efforts you pretty much win as your army is simply better by virtue of being drawn from a superior set of options.

Ultramarines have some tricks, don’t get me wrong. Their Chapter tactic is a mixed bag, +1 Ld is nice, it doesn’t come up that much, and fallback and fire is nice, but very much reactive.

Overall what Ultras bring to the table just aren’t as offensive/ significant/ or simply disproportionate as others. Yes, move and double tap aggressors will have the tendency to annihilate anything in 18” (assuming they live long enough), but if you want a casual friendly games it’s easy not to abuse this.

Compare this to many of the other options

IH have the issue that even if you ignore successor options their CT and super doctrine are individually awesome, and even better together given the synergy. This combination of double effect wounds, no move and fire penalty, an additional -1 AP and re-rolls 1 to hit simple turns pretty much any heavy weapon biased unit into something really really awesome. Landspeeder – awesome, attack bikes – awesome, fliers awesome, Predators – don’t completely suck anymore…  5+ overwatch is not bad either....

 

IFs CT and super doctrine complement each other nicely… And turns any high volume of fire heavy weapons into superb dual-use guns. A twin-assault cannon or heavy onslaught Gatling are now simply phenomenal, and will usually out perform a lascannon against vehicles.

Salamanders have a solid CT (it makes those MSU with those single/low no. of attack high impact weapons like lascannons, melta etc much more reliable, and who wouldn't like to ignore -1AP?) and theoretically some ridiculous combos (you know the kind of thing Flamestorm Gauntlets + max number of attacks + adding 2 to wounds + possibly mortals on a 4+…).

 

In otherwords, as far as I can see with Ultramarines it’s easy to have a casual game and not end up being, or being perceived to be ‘that guy’ simply due to your choice of army, given the core strength of the update Codex: Space Marines this isn't a bad thing.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Cornishman

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Factions like IH and IF basically do one thing very well. UM are a jack of all trades. As has already been said no one really knows which chapter is the most competitive following supplements but they were prior. Any faction should be fun for casual play depending on your list. Edited October 30, 2019 by Black Blow Fly

[Cornishman]

Factions like IH and IF basically do one thing very well. UM are a jack of all trades. As has already been said no one really knows which chapter is the most competitive following supplements but they were prior. Any faction should be fun for casual play depending on your list.

Didn't say casual lists for IH, IF etc... weren't possible. Its more that the one thing they do can make getting into that casual place... whats the best word.... 'tricker?',

 

The different CTs and super doctorines can easily turn something that is was, and is generally so-so into a star performer.

 

 

[Aothaine]

I still think people are looking at the fallback and shoot ability and under estimating it. This is insanely strong and allows you to shoot a target, assault, force your opponent to fallback and not fire or is stuck in combat and can't fire anyway, then you just fall back and shoot the enemy on the following turn if they are still there. The more and more I'm looking into this the more I'm leaning toward Ultramarines right now. I know I wanted a mainly primaris force so the models do not lose their rules for a long time, but hell even the rules are good. Pretty sure the Ultramarines are just a sleeper power house.

 

I still have a few months before I have to choose and start building and painting for LVO 2020 and other events. Planning on moving to Vegas in a few months and will hopefully find a good group to playtest and have fun games with down there. But right now, Ultras are beating IH in my book. I've not done much looking into WS, S or IF yet.

 

It would be nice to play a poster-boy army again as well. You know you get all the toys. :D

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I disagree - you design your list for casual play. :)

[Aothaine]

I disagree - you design your list for casual play.

 

I totally do.

 

When I say LVO 2020 I mean LVO Friendly 2020 lol! :D

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They have a narrative for 40k. I’m going to a narrative next year in Austin, TX which is highly rated. You make friends and have fun exciting games drinking some adult beverages.

 

@ cornishman (cool moniker!) - I completely understand what you’re saying and I want you to know that too. So for my example if I was going to bring a casual Iron Hands army list then no Stalker and not a lot of heavy weapons. It wouldn’t be as easy for Imperial Fists since they key off the humble bolt weapons. :)

 

Lets look at some of the supplements and rate the factions based upon the active combat tactic -

 

Imperial Fists & Iron Hands - Devastator Phase

Salamanders & Ultramarines - Tactical Phase

White Scars - Assault Phase

 

The first chapters prolly never want to leave Devastator Phase which is very powerful but maybe these armies get boring to play faster. One thing I can say about Ultramarines is it never really gets boring for me or ever feels mechanical. I have found that well designed powerful melee armies tend to feel mechanical for me after awhile except for Blood Angels. I think that is important because I put a lot of time into crafting my list and painting my models.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Black Blow Fly

[Aothaine]

They have a narrative for 40k. I’m going to a narrative next year in Austin, TX which is highly rated. You make friends and have fun exciting games drinking some adult beverages.

 

Ohhh! I'll look into that!

 

 

Lets look at some of the supplements and rate the factions based upon the active combat tactic -

 

Imperial Fists & Iron Hands - Devastator Phase

Salamanders & Ultramarines - Tactical Phase

White Scars - Assault Phase

 

You left out Raven Guard.

 

If I was to rate just the doctrines of each chapter I would most likely rank them as follows (keep in mind they are all very powerful): 

 

Ultramarines, White Scars, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Imperial Fists

 

Many people will disagree with me here but This is the ranking that I like base off of how I like to play 40k. For other people this ranking will be different.

 

Edit: I really feel that Raven Guard can also be #1 depending on the opponent. If you go against those chaos lists with morty, and a bunch of tzeentch characters... a properly built Raven Guard list is going to absolutely shred them. 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Aothaine

[Cornishman]

I disagree - you design your list for casual play.

That was kind of the point I was getting to badly.

 

You need to go through the processing designing the list and think 'Is this a casual list?' rather than being able to simply go.... what do I feel like bringing out today.... *proceeds to pick list based on current whims* and being reasonably confident the resulting list isn't overally competitve (i.e. is causal).