Ranking the Space Marine supplements

[Ishagu]

We've now seen in detail what the various supplements offer and the benefits to each one. To that effect I have decided to list them in order of tiers, and outline the pros and cons they might have. Keep in mind that all of thr chapters are very powerful in general.

 

A Tier:

 

Iron Hands (post nerf)

Pros: Incredible Doctrine and Chapter Tactic, Great Strats, Useful psychic powers and relics, Feirros is still cheap.

 

The Iron Hands are incredibly powerful even after various nerfs. The Doctrine is simply amazing and active from the start. The army is both mobile and hard hitting from the 1st turn, and also very accurate with heavy weapons. The rules still allow for powerful combos such as the esteemed Iron Hands Air Force and the Invincible Leviathan.

 

Imperial Fists

Pros: Well rounded Doctrine and CT, Great characters, Super offensive combos not obvious at a glance, great new character

Cons: Lacklustre Psychic powers

 

I think that this is the chapter to bring the pain at range. With the various strats and abilities you can put out staggering amounts of shots that are capable of chipping away any units with ease. Psychic powers aren't as striking but good relics and Warlord traits make up for that.

 

B Tier:

 

Salamanders

Pros: Fantastic Stratagems, Super offensive combinations, Superb Chapter Tactic, Awesome new character

Cons: Highly Specialised Doctrine, Best at close range

 

Resilient, powerful, highly damaging. Some amazing combinations through strats. If the correct units are delivered they could be devastating. Imagine 6 Aggressors auto hitting 144 times with +1 to wound, as an example.

 

Raven Guard

Pros: Fantastic Chapter Tactic, Superb high pressure stratagems, Great Psychic Discipline

Cons: Highly Specialised Doctrine, CP hungry in initial turns

 

In the right hands this chapter could be the exceptional. The Raven Guard have great board control and mobility and can deliver high damage units into optimum firing/assault ranges without needing transports or exposing them to danger.

 

White Scars

Pros: Great stratagems in combination with Chapter Tactics, Great Psychic Discipline

Cons: High Skill Requirement, mistakes can cost games, Doctrine takes too long to come into effect

 

A pretty spicy chapter. Outflanking Repulsors, assaulting on turn 1, pressuring an opponent, all possible with the White Scars. Abilities benefit Classic Astartes the mort and the play style of the chapter often leads to high losses.

 

C Tier:

 

Ultramarines

Pros: Great Doctrine, Good characters, Decent chapter tactic

Cons: Lacklustre Stratagems, Poor psychic discipline, CT doesn't come into play often

 

Solid all round chapter. No combos as offensive or high pressure as other chapters, not as resilient or quick as what's possible with other supplements. The most forgiving if a positional mistake is made. Guilliman needs a force org change or point drop.

 

 

Any opinions are welcome!

Edited October 21, 2019 by Ishagu

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ishagu places the ultramarines at the bottom, like usual.

 

Iron hands are definitely not undisputed top tier any more. Iron Air lost almost all of its defensive layers; feirros doesn't give them invuls, ironstone only works on 1 model, reforge can't double heal. They're still offensively stronger than other FF chapters, but you only have to get through the Stealthy cover bonus and one iron stone.

 

Imperial fists, you seem to mention their characters being great twice, but the only great one isn't imperial fists; Lysander is bad and Tor is unimpressive. They do have a very versatile set of stratagems and can react very well to a lot of different situations. But their doctrine flat out doesn't work against a number of armies, and that really sucks.

 

Salamanders, haven't seen the full leaks, but the biggest problem seems to be they got extremely pigeon holed as the fire chapter. There's some huge damage output, but it comes from an extremely restrictive unit pool. And due to the flamers short range, apply the statement about screens from the raven guard and frustrate flamer pods and warsuits. Long range marksmen will be picked more than the actual tactic.

 

Raven Guard are tricky to evaluate since they're by far the most gotcha and can depend a lot on how familiar an opponent is with "early 8th" playstyle. An amount of concealed position screens can hamper the most damaging lists, as centurions and aggressors both want to be in very close range to the main units. Don't know how the psychic discipline got rated "great" with precisely two good, yet highly costed powers.

 

White scars are pretty cool and make cool lists as a result of their more melee focus. Doctrine is much harder to leverage due to needing turn 3 to get to (aka the end of the game in 8th). Another chapter where successor tactic use can change the listbuild a lot to benefit from reserve heavy deployment. High skill requirements is completely dependant on the list.

 

Ultramarines. The doctrine is very good; it makes you maneuverable and helps a broad amount of units. One of three GW chapters to not have to spend CP on chapter master; setting them 4-5 ahead, which helps to get the most out of the main book ones. Seal of Oath is very, very good. If you don't mind tossing the characters out, you can ditch the heavily situational tactic for successor tactics.

[Brom MKIV]

I feel IF doctrine actually works against all armies.. in a sense. Not needing dedicated anti tank weapons means they will crush hard on infantry without giving up any game against mechanized. This might be enough to place them on par with IH. I'm now more concerned with facing them.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

I'm excited to try out RG rules; I'm getting a copy of Shadowspear for Christmas, and I'll be picking up a Shrike to go with them (maybe an Invictor also) and I'll be running them as their own pure Phobos RG army. Whether I run them as allies with my current stuff remains to be seen.

[CaptainMarsh]

Iron Hands. We already know everything there is know, even post-FAQ. You know the score.

 

Imperial Fists. Their Doctrine cripples any number of vehicle-heavy lists any number of ways. Their ability to generate bolter hits is tremendous. They present a simple and effective playstyle with effective abilities against hordes and vehicles. I've seen the Siegebreaker Cohort in person often enough to know that this book is going to cause some serious damage.

 

Ultramarines. They adapt well and have a universal benefit that can come in handy with a wide range of weapons. They lack a power combo, they lack something to hang your hat on without fail or counter, but they also are not pigeonholed from list building to tabletop. An Ultramarines army can be anything or do anything well, even if it doesn't do any one thing exceptionally.

 

Salamanders. They are very effective when they get close, and have the sort of defensive techniques that could come in handy. They have awesome strategem support. Sadly, they *need* to get really close to benefit from a lot of their power and are very CP heavy. They can fall flat or be amazing, but I think their toolbox on the whole is very good.

 

White Scars. They synergize really well and are nothing to shake a stick at, by any stretch of the imagination I think they come out looking really pretty. They don't overwhelm you with capability however, and their special doctrine activating in the final Doctrine means it is the slowest to reach full potential. That hurts them in a direct comparison.

 

Raven Guard. Their rules and abilities seem to be the most specialized and while they excel and hunting characters and  being the sneaky boys we know and love, they lack the sort of oomph others bring to the table. They are by no means bad mind you as they do have their own host of tricks. I just don't see them necessarily being better than sixth. They are also very CP hungry.


All of them are pretty good on their own merits and they all pull from an amazing codex. They are all functionally pretty amazing. It is only in direct comparison that some falter more than others.

Edited October 20, 2019 by CaptainMarsh

[Hellebras]

I think you're right to place Imperial Fists in the top tier; I'm not familiar enough with the other supplements rules to comment on them. IF get the significant advantage of having rules that allow them to perform extremely well against a range of targets. The only thing they don't have some bonus against is monsters, which they're no worse at dealing with than any other Space Marine army. I don't know about you, but I can't say I find a Tyranids army all that intimidating as a result of the doctrine not targeting monsters. The ability to stack bonuses on some units is really significant. I don't actually expect Seismic Devastation to survive the first round of FAQs because IF DevCents are just that good. But even taking that out of the equation, we get a lot of mileage out of Aggressors, and even the humble Intercessors look outstanding between our Chapter Tactic and the stratagems. I'm genuinely bemused by the people complaining about the IF supplement; it's not pre-errata Iron Hands, but it's still looking pretty strong to me. Less point-and-click, perhaps, but I see that as a good thing.

[Fenriwolf]

 

IF:Great characters

No,not really.

 

If you are talking named at least.

 

Lysander has been useless since 7th and still is.

 

Tor is Lysander improved but he's too mismatched in his rules/profile to have a defined role.And then CM rerolls exist,and at best he plays second fiddle to that (but then you have to fit librarians and chaplains in the list so he starts falling behind even more in the priority list)

 

Kantor is good,but he's the only one.

 

Is the EoH chapter master good?Yes.But it ends there.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Fenriwolf

[MeltaRange]

I personally think White Scars are tier A.

[Ishagu]

You guys might not have seen the combinations that can lead Imperial Fists to dealing huge damage, especially with units like Bolter Centurions.

As for their characters, I rate them high not just based on the named heroes but the fact that you can have the Guilliman aura on one hero for just 2 CP and a relic.

 

The Salamander stratagems are just exceptional. The +1 to wound Strat is amazing because any unit can be threatened by even basic bolters when it's applied.

 

It's obviously early days but these chapters are looking very strong. My opinion on the Ultras being bottom isn't changing - There is no rule combination as powerful as what the other chapters can achieve. Other chapters might move up or down as more rule combinations are unlocked by the community, obviously I can't spot everything.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Ishagu

[SkimaskMohawk]

I guess the biggest question is how much do you value potential damage vs. ease of applying it. Obviously the iron hands had the most reliable heavy weapons, on fast platforms, with many defensive bonuses to add up to the crazy win rate.

 

Salamander combustion is very real, and not-VotlW is great, as is potential tank-captains (I got caught up on the salamander leaks). But the army speed is "normal" for space marines; it doesn't have the tricks raven guard and white scars do to protect and place those high impact units.

 

Imperial fist centurions can blow almost any unit out of the water, and there's some really cool lists out there that do cool things with mass heavy bolters. But those centurions need to shuffle into range/los. And people will do everything in their power to prevent that and kill the unit at the first opportunity.

 

And if you're talking about characters being good by the relics they can take, then seal of oath should have been mentioned, as well as the variety of raven guard and white scar players.

[RandomMarine]

For me the order would be

1ST IF and IH for obvious reasons

2nd UM massive selection of characters and hyper versatile

3rd SL massive damage output but hard to get there

4th WS actually really good but having to wait till turn 3 for the doctrine to kick in sucks

5th Rg kind of 1 trick pony that can be negated with clever deployment

 

But what really makes the marines great now is the base codex and I can't wait to see what crazy stuff FW can come up with for their chapters if they ever get back to 40k

[Fenriwolf]

You guys might not have seen the combinations that can lead Imperial Fists to dealing huge damage, especially with units like Bolter Centurions.

 

I'm pretty sure everyone that plays Fists has the combos with bolter centurions very clear in mind.

More than likely the first thing everyone did mental math about at every step of the rumor cycle.

 

 

As for their characters, I rate them high not just based on the named heroes but the fact that you can have the Guilliman aura on one hero for just 2 CP and a relic.

 

And as i said,the eye of Hypnoth CM being good doesnt means imperial fists have good characters.

They have one and everything else is either standard (all the other not-named ones) or bad (the named ones).

 

Not exactly a pro.

And btw,"only 2cp and a relic" isnt exactly cheap.Worth paying,but not cheap.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Fenriwolf

[SkimaskMohawk]

Especially since other chapters like raven guard and ultras, don't have to pay CP for the chapter master aura and can just buy a lt, something that usually helps make a battalion (and is cheap points wise).

[Marshal van Trapp]

What about the White Scars warlord trait that makes it so you cant fallback? Put that on a JP captain and you can literally assault flyers to death haha that sounds kinda S tier cheese to me

 

EDIT: Aww nvm they FAQ'd it RIP

Edited October 20, 2019 by Marshal van Trapp

[Claws and Effect]

The Raven Guard supplement is better than it's being given credit for.

 

It excels at murdering characters, and the vast majority of lists I've seen in 8th edition heavily revolve around utilizing the auras and other abilities to make the units around them better.

 

And you can't nullify it that easily with clever deployment because of the sheer number of ways Raven Guard have of moving their units around to open up shots on those characters.

 

It's not as point and click as other supplements, but a player that is good at the psychological side of the game can get a lot of mileage out of it.

 

Middle of the pack at worst.

[templargdt]

Obviously IH at the top, even post nerf.  

I don't see how IF can be considered top tier.  Their super doctrine is useless against a broad swath of units in the game, and frankly some entire armies (demons, tyranids, most Tau builds, etc.)  Also, their characters are not good.  Then there is the fact a chunk of their stuff like psychics and strats are used against stuff that functionally doesn't exist in  the game (buildings).  

UM cannot be at the bottom of the list.  The super doctrine is great, the CT is great.  Some amazing strats (redeployment, overwatch for units nearby, one use bonus AP, etc.), great relics, tons of special characters and units,  CP regain capabilities, both a WL trait and psychic power (yes, most of the discipline is trash, but still.)  I'd put the UM above the Fists.

I want to like Raven Guard but I just can't see it.  They will do hilarious things to character knights, but really, how many snipers are you bringing in a game?  -1 to hit was better before the change to Chapter Master, and now you only get cover outside of terrain.  Oh, and SFTS is still nerfed.  To top it off I loathe the new Shrike model.  

Scars probably at the bottom, sorry.  Your super doctrine comes into play when the game is close to wrapping up.  

I have no idea about the Sallies.  Everything seems jumbled together and looking for units with flamers and melta and MSU.  I'd probably play Sallies as successor chapter just for the +3" range to weapons trait and dropping in flamer units.  Ignoring -1 AP, eh.  Before UM and IH super doctrines, maybe.  Now?  No.  I'd rather have another trait that can actually do something for me.  

TLDR: 
IH
UM
IF
RG
Sallies
WS

[SkimaskMohawk]

I feel like you missed out on a lot of the supplements if you're only evaluating by doctrine.

 

Imperial fists have some of the most sheer damage output, all from strats and using centurions, white scars can drop heavy hitting melee units from reserve with a good bonus to charge, raven guard can drop centurions in the grill and facilitate turn 1 charges with ease. 

 

Some chapters get more use out of their doctrine, like iron hands and ultras, but others have stratagems, psychic powers and warlord traits that really carry the books. Also, some combinations of successor tactics leverage the advantages better than the default tactic, while others want to keep the FF tactic; sallies want resiliency because to take advantage of the majority of their rules, they need to get close and survive. Fists want bolter synergy to get the most out of bolter drill and their variety of strats.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This is an exercise in futility. All the founding chapters have so much flav o flavor now. Enjoy it while we got it going on.

[domsto]

I would rate IF as bottom Tier and Ultras as Top Tier

 

The IF traits is very depending which enemy you face. Against Guard you will have a brutal Bonus, but against Tyras you lose out.

 

The Ultra Trait on the other Hand works pretty good all the Time

Always rapitfireing

Moving whitout -1 with Heavys

Alsways double Shooting with the Repulor Tank

[Lemondish]

IH - no more need be said

WS - amazing Stratagems, relics, psychic powers, and traits

UM - the versatility is off the charts, the characters are amazing, access to tremendous amounts of CP without forcing a particular detachment build, and has one of the best relic options from any supplement

Sallies - lots of powerful tools, great Stratagems, but limited by its aggressive nature

RG - provides strong Stratagems and deployment tools, great character, but the limited focus reduces their flexibility as a mono force because it encourages a handful of one off, telegraphed tricks

IF - a good chapter tactic can't detract from wasted potential; too fluff focused for the crunch to work out

Edited October 21, 2019 by Lemondish

[Ishagu]

Can I ask exactly why some of you are placing the Ultras so high? The Chapter Tactic isn't great compared to the RG, IH, Salamanders. Is it the Doctrine? It really isn't as big a deal as some of you are rating it to be.

 

The book is swimming with units that can fly now, or move and shoot without penalty, and just using the Salamanders as a comparison:

 

Salamander Strats:

-The Crucible of Battle, 1CP - Literally better outright than anything the Ultras can do. This can make a humble Intercessors squad with Bolter drill wound a t7 tank 20 times at - 2AP in the Tac Doctrine, and that's without a Lieutenant. Let's not even talk about using it on something like a Repulsor, Leviathan, Aggressors, etc

 

-Relentless Determination, 1CP look at this little gem. Suddenly you have the Ultramarines doctrine on a unit, but you can use it during the Dev and Assault doctrines too. That Salamander Repulsor can now move a full 10" and shoot twice with the bonus AP from the Dev Doctrine on turn 1.

 

Maybe you guys haven't played as many games, but the Ultras rules are very much reactive, not necessarily flexible. Sure, if you make a mistake and get your units tagged in the assault phase you can retreat and shoot. Salamanders can instead make the shooting AND assault phase magnitudes more deadly. Let's not even get started with the psychic powers which are far more powerful. What's an Ultramarines player going to do about 6 Centurions that appear in firing range from reserves (RG 1 cp Strat)?

Look beyond the doctrines to get the full picture.

 

This isn't me being negative, as the army is rock solid no matter which chapter you play. I'm just objectively pointing out that the Ultras are easily the weakest of the supplements.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Ishagu

[ERJAK]

I would argue that UM WS SAL and RG are all within a few percent of each other. While I can see UM being considered the weakest, if we're 'tiering' them off, I don't think the difference would be large enough to justify a new tier. 

 

This extends to whatever one of those 4 is your personal weakest, regardless of which one it is I don't think the difference is big enough to justify another tier.

Edited October 21, 2019 by ERJAK

[emperorpants]

Going to agree with Ishagu here.  Being the most flexible (which is actually kinda debatable) means nothing if you're hammered into the ground by clearly superior abilities and offense.  The ultras don't really have anything that is just theirs as well.  Everything they can do another supplement can do as well (though maybe not to the same extent).  

 

-The ultras have the worst psychic

-The ultras have overall probably the worst strats

-The ultras don't really have much in the way of powerful combos

-For being the most flexible (debatable) they really don't have any ways to deal with the combos, offense, and defense of the other chapters.  The ultras can hang with any of the other chapters, but are at a disadvantage.  Read: probably going to lose.

 

Does this mean they suck?  Of course not.  They are a pretty good army.  Just obviously (imo) the weakest of the supplements.  By a fair amount too.

[MeltaRange]

Can I ask exactly why some of you are placing the Ultras so high? The Chapter Tactic isn't great compared to the RG, IH, Salamanders. Is it the Doctrine? It really isn't as big a deal as some of you are rating it to be.

 

Well, the have incredible special characters.  I would say they probably have the best 3-4 special characters of the entire Space Marine faction in Calgar, Tigirius, and Cassius...Guilliman is a bit of a different story since he's a LOW but he is an absolute beast.  They also have access to the Chapter Champion which is an absolutely insane model for the points.

 

I think their CT is actually something that you might not "think" is great because it anecdotally doesn't come up that often, but over the course of dozens or hundreds of games it means a lot.  Not being able to tie your units up in melee means the opponent has to play differently, which could be to their disadvantage.  Sure, FLY exists, but I think this is still a solid, flexible tactic.  Yeah, it's not as good as Iron Hands.

 

They have the best CP and CP re-generation, hands down.  They might not super flashy stratagems others don't have, but they do have more CP and so can more realistically get more use out of all the stratagems in the book.  White Scars on the other hand, have incredible stratagems, but CP are a very precious resource.  I would likely never play Prepared Positions, and would do way less Command Re-rolls.  I find it hard to play Transhuman Physiology because I want to save the CP for situational play.  It's a gift and a curse, and I'm sure Sallie players are going to find that out soon.

[Ishagu]

Tiggy is only as good as the powers he can cast. Ultras have access only to the weakest disciplines.

 

Calgar is great, no doubt about it. Doesn't offer anything you can't get elsewhere however.

 

Guilliman is over costed, and in a force org slot that ends up costing the army significantly.

 

Iron Hands have CP regeneration also, again, not unique.

 

Nothing they have compares to the deployment and speed of White Scars and RG, the offence of IF and Salamanders or the durability and builds of the IH. All the other chapters get better CT and access to the same re roll auras.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Ishagu