Ranking the Space Marine supplements

[templargdt]

So many great puns on this page of this topic.  Nicely done.

[Aurica]

I would rate UM higher than WS considering WS have to wait till turn 3 for their Chapter Doctrine to take effect.  I would also rate RG and UM to be equal, as they are more subtle and requires finesse to pull off

[Ishagu]

I would rate UM higher than WS considering WS have to wait till turn 3 for their Chapter Doctrine to take effect. I would also rate RG and UM to be equal, as they are more subtle and requires finesse to pull off

The Doctrine is only a small part of what makes the White Scars so potent. Their stratagems, psychic powers and traits are the key to their power. In fact White Scars are proving to be only marginally less successful than the Iron Hands when it comes to winning.

[Claws and Effect]

I find it a little counterintuitive that some units are really good for Chapters that you wouldn't expect to use them much, if at all.

 

For example, Assault Centurions are very good for both White Scars and Raven Guard. I would not expect either of those Chapters to field them with any frequency, but they are almost an autoinclude for RG and pretty awesome for WS too.

[Ishagu]

It's the same with Speeders and Assault Bikers being the best with Iron Hands instead of White Scars.

Lol there are definitely a few quirks.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

WS Cents are better coz more buffs to ensure the charge is successful.

[PiñaColada]

Sure, there are some units that are uncharacteristically better with one chapter than the one they "should" mesh with, but I feel like that's bound to happen. Overall I think GW has done a great job of basically rewarding players when they're playing fluffy lists with these new supplements.

Back to the actual ranking of supplements I feel like we need to wait a bit more before we see where it all lands (and the potential changes of the last two erratas). At that point the meta might've changed with point drops in CA 2019 I guess. 

Tentatively I still think IH are going to be the top dogs. It wouldn't surprise me if we started seeing a lot of IF lists doing great, since just bolter spam is super potent with them (and works pretty well as TAC). WS might still be low-key amongst the best of them but it requires a lot more skill to play than the rest I feel.
The rest of the supplements I feel are roughly as powerful, Salamanders certainly look super scary but I still feel like they're too easily outmaneuvered to consistently do well.

[Lord Sinaris]

Honest question, since I really didn't have a chance to follow all the new releases over the past few weeks: Non-supplement marines are just straight up worse in every way than their supplement brethren? Or is there any benefit to a codex-only marine list? Do supplements lose access to anything the way BA or DA do? Or is it just a straight "we sold you one book, here are some more you will absolutely need"-situation?

[Brom MKIV]

Supplement marines are better. Period. There is just no way less options is better than more.

[Lemondish]

Honest question, since I really didn't have a chance to follow all the new releases over the past few weeks: Non-supplement marines are just straight up worse in every way than their supplement brethren? Or is there any benefit to a codex-only marine list? Do supplements lose access to anything the way BA or DA do? Or is it just a straight "we sold you one book, here are some more you will absolutely need"-situation?

To gain what supplement marines bring, you need to be mono faction, even mono subfaction. To gain what the codex brings, you need to be mono marines.

 

The old special snowflakes got the extra attack on charge rule and any profile changes to weapons etc

[Schlitzaf]

 

Honest question, since I really didn't have a chance to follow all the new releases over the past few weeks: Non-supplement marines are just straight up worse in every way than their supplement brethren? Or is there any benefit to a codex-only marine list? Do supplements lose access to anything the way BA or DA do? Or is it just a straight "we sold you one book, here are some more you will absolutely need"-situation?

To gain what supplement marines bring, you need to be mono faction, even mono subfaction. To gain what the codex brings, you need to be mono marines.

 

The old special snowflakes got the extra attack on charge rule and any profile changes to weapons etc

You get Strategems/Warlord/Relics/Physics regardless of being pure or not

[Lemondish]

 

 

Honest question, since I really didn't have a chance to follow all the new releases over the past few weeks: Non-supplement marines are just straight up worse in every way than their supplement brethren? Or is there any benefit to a codex-only marine list? Do supplements lose access to anything the way BA or DA do? Or is it just a straight "we sold you one book, here are some more you will absolutely need"-situation?

To gain what supplement marines bring, you need to be mono faction, even mono subfaction. To gain what the codex brings, you need to be mono marines.

 

The old special snowflakes got the extra attack on charge rule and any profile changes to weapons etc

You get Strategems/Warlord/Relics/Physics regardless of being pure or not

Yeah, but that isn't new.

[Schlitzaf]

 

 

 

Honest question, since I really didn't have a chance to follow all the new releases over the past few weeks: Non-supplement marines are just straight up worse in every way than their supplement brethren? Or is there any benefit to a codex-only marine list? Do supplements lose access to anything the way BA or DA do? Or is it just a straight "we sold you one book, here are some more you will absolutely need"-situation?

To gain what supplement marines bring, you need to be mono faction, even mono subfaction. To gain what the codex brings, you need to be mono marines.

 

The old special snowflakes got the extra attack on charge rule and any profile changes to weapons etc

You get Strategems/Warlord/Relics/Physics regardless of being pure or not

Yeah, but that isn't new.

The supplements bring new Strategems/Warlord/Relics/Physics

[Brom MKIV]

Besides a cash/access issue I don't see why a player wouldn't choose to use supplement rules in conjunction with the core space marines rules.

But the supplement rules are pretty easy to get a hold of, whether from GW or friends/forums or even other sources. 

[Lord Sinaris]

So to sum it up: with a supplement, I get access to all codex units and traits/stratagems/psychic/relics, and I additionally get access to a new selection of traits/strats/characters - thats all choices added. In addition, I get a superpowered doctrine which is just a straight up buff compared to the codex-versions and basically invalidates every DIY-chapter using only the codex?

[Brom MKIV]

Not quite. You get all the above you mentioned, even as a DIY chapter. So why wouldn't you use your DIY chapter with a supplement?

Theres literally not a reason to avoid the supplement except you can't find the rules.

[Guest MistaGav]

Well, my DIY chapter is a known Dark Angels successor yet I have been using the current SM codex as it's simply better in every way and the models I have been playing with is mostly Primaris so it's sort of ok. I'd feel kind of bad using a supplement for that reason really. Also, I'm still super confused how the whole successor system works and who I'd pick. Maybe Ultramarine's as it's tactic is very generalist and quite good.

[Ishagu]

To clarify, the supplements don't mean you have to use the chapters they focus on.

 

If your custom chapter is a Raven Guard successor, as an example, the supplement would make them play better and more thematically on the tabletop.

[Brom MKIV]

Well, my DIY chapter is a known Dark Angels successor yet I have been using the current SM codex as it's simply better in every way and the models I have been playing with is mostly Primaris so it's sort of ok. I'd feel kind of bad using a supplement for that reason really. Also, I'm still super confused how the whole successor system works and who I'd pick. Maybe Ultramarine's as it's tactic is very generalist and quite good.

I was a DA players once. until I finally dubbed them and GW unforgiven. 

 

As Ishagu said.. so take the main marine book and pick the 2 traits you feel suite your chapter best. Then look through the 5 supplements and see which one suits your chapter best as far as relics, strats, WL traits. 

 

If you go with all the same successor then you also access the 'super doctrine' of that supplement. If you mix different chapter tactics then you don't. 

 

Example:

 

DA successor..

the dark hunters (or insert chapter name here)

Battalion 1- bolter fusilades, hungry for battle

the dark hunters

battalion 2- bolter fusilades, hungry for battle

This army gets the super doctrine of the supplement you picked (and also all the other goodies in the book)

 

DA successor.. 

the dark hunters 

Battalion 1- bolter fusilades, hungry for battle

The grey watchers

battalion 2- whirlwind of rage, long range marksmen

this army does NOT get the super doctrine but will still retain all other access. 

 

Neither army can have more than 1 supplement specific relic which they can access via a stratagem each supplement has. Raven guard its called token of brotherhood. Special issue wargear is always fair game. 

 

tldr; the supplements just add additional options to your successor brother. 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Brom MKIV

[Guest MistaGav]

Ok I think I understand that as I have been running them as a successor chapter but just a generic one and picked 2 traits I liked the look of, mainly the long range marksman, Bolter Fusilades. I just didn't realise I could then have the super doctrine on top with a book. I thought you needed to pick the Inheritors of the Primarch Successor Tactic in order to unlock that.

[Ishagu]

Ok I think I understand that as I have been running them as a successor chapter but just a generic one and picked 2 traits I liked the look of, mainly the long range marksman, Bolter Fusilades. I just didn't realise I could then have the super doctrine on top with a book. I thought you needed to pick the Inheritors of the Primarch Successor Tactic in order to unlock that.

It's not just this, you gain access to new relics and strats also.

[Brom MKIV]

Inheritors is something that really shouldn't even exist IMO. Its there as a shout out to narrative play so that players with a successor can feel like they're legitimately playing a successor.. I guess. In reality I would be surprised if any player on the planet uses it. Instead it just causes confusion.

[Medjugorje]

Ishagu places the ultramarines at the bottom, like usual.

 

Iron hands are definitely not undisputed top tier any more. Iron Air lost almost all of its defensive layers; feirros doesn't give them invuls, ironstone only works on 1 model, reforge can't double heal. They're still offensively stronger than other FF chapters, but you only have to get through the Stealthy cover bonus and one iron stone.

 

Imperial fists, you seem to mention their characters being great twice, but the only great one isn't imperial fists; Lysander is bad and Tor is unimpressive. They do have a very versatile set of stratagems and can react very well to a lot of different situations. But their doctrine flat out doesn't work against a number of armies, and that really sucks.

 

Salamanders, haven't seen the full leaks, but the biggest problem seems to be they got extremely pigeon holed as the fire chapter. There's some huge damage output, but it comes from an extremely restrictive unit pool. And due to the flamers short range, apply the statement about screens from the raven guard and frustrate flamer pods and warsuits. Long range marksmen will be picked more than the actual tactic.

 

Raven Guard are tricky to evaluate since they're by far the most gotcha and can depend a lot on how familiar an opponent is with "early 8th" playstyle. An amount of concealed position screens can hamper the most damaging lists, as centurions and aggressors both want to be in very close range to the main units. Don't know how the psychic discipline got rated "great" with precisely two good, yet highly costed powers.

 

White scars are pretty cool and make cool lists as a result of their more melee focus. Doctrine is much harder to leverage due to needing turn 3 to get to (aka the end of the game in 8th). Another chapter where successor tactic use can change the listbuild a lot to benefit from reserve heavy deployment. High skill requirements is completely dependant on the list.

 

Ultramarines. The doctrine is very good; it makes you maneuverable and helps a broad amount of units. One of three GW chapters to not have to spend CP on chapter master; setting them 4-5 ahead, which helps to get the most out of the main book ones. Seal of Oath is very, very good. If you don't mind tossing the characters out, you can ditch the heavily situational tactic for successor tactics.

And Black Templars are sooo bad that they not even mentioned

[Ishagu]

We've not seen the full BT rules yet.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Can't analyze rules that don't exist.