Ranking the Space Marine supplements

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

GSC is considered non competitive now coz new SM meta .

[Brom MKIV]

Ya but so is the rest of the factions honestly. Cani't beat em join em!

 

TFC is probably on the list of things to nerf next. 

[Ishagu]

Everyone owns Marines, so if they are strong their impact is felt immediately. Also because they are so popular in sheer numbers they'll probably be common at event top tables.

 

There should be no more nerfs, but the Salamanders do have one Strat that needs some FAQ clarification. Beyond that we should enjoy 40k!

[Velsero]

Could not disagree more with OP rankings, especially where competitive matched play is concerned. All current meta is about gimmicks. Some players don't like admitting it, but almost all meta builds are gimmicks. So rather than ranking by gimmick, how about looking at the suppliment by how well they deal with gimmicks, and WIN...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The flg podcast said today that the Salamander sacrifice strat should/will get nerfed. Edited October 22, 2019 by Black Blow Fly

[Ishagu]

I wouldn't nerf it, but it does need an FAQ to clarify how it works as it's open to un-fun abuse. As it stands you can use it to make Custodes invincible to shooting, as an example, which is a bit weird. Edited October 22, 2019 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yes it needs to be clarified.

[chapter master 454]

Not going to comment on Salamanders and Imperial Fists. It hasn't been released and would be a fools task to rank them before even a week has past their release.

 

As far as the current goes:

Iron Hands and Raven Guard just stand tall and rock socks with Ultramarine in the middle and White Scars at the bottom imo but I will confess to lack of experience both with and against them so weigh that into your thoughts of my opinions. Lets skip white scars for me and go from bottom up.

 

Ultramarines just do good. They may not stand giant above all but they have tools for all occasions and if you go pure blue you have a wide selection of amazing characters ranging from Cassius and his double litanies, Tigerius and his disappearing brothers while Calgar brings a pocket Lieutenant and says "look at me, I am the Gulliman now". Their Doctrine benefit is nothing to dismiss and is by all leagues very powerful. I'm sorry Iron Hands but I would actually rate Ultramarines above you due to how much more applicable this doctrine is. Oh no...it isn't turn 1 active...JK I have 2 ways of cheating to tactical doctrine on the units that would need it along with once active having bolter discipline online all day every day is incredibly potent. Nothing stand out but again, as Ultramarines normally do, they aren't lacking for anything ether.

 

Iron Hands. These are the bogeymen of the world right now and while I am going over them now, I rate them side by side with Raven Guard. Iron Hands certainly have various boons and potent powers that make them a world of hurt. Their Doctrine benefit is very powerful however lacks application unless built into, for the units it does work for those it makes them stand out rock 'em sock 'em terrors because GW doesn't want tanks to be good unless you use this (seriously...seriously...tanks still suck). Their powers can put down some serious tripping hazard for some armies while also being very easy and applicable to what they want to do which is go heavy. Dreadnoughts being their key lynchpin power house boost boys shows in how they operate, even with the nerfs across the board I am pretty sure they can still run around with a dreadnought tethered to an iron stone, another with a 5+++ and the last one just tanking hits with duty eternal while their repair crews behind them make it all the more annoying. No longer a terror but woe betide anyone who dares take these marines lightly because of their nerfs.

 

Raven Guard, a surprise to be sure but a pleasant one (for us...not the enemy). Their doctrine benefit may not be the most powerful nor applicable however it plays background to the absolute misery you can put your opponent through because of their other elements. Among the supplements there arises variant Hero Captains, such as Captain Dakka of the ultramarines and Forgemaster "dent this you filthy casual" and with Raven Guard they have 2 equally good Captain "Dodge this you filthy casual", sniper builds which may not be horde mincers however they will see to it those annoying aura characters disappear quick. These sort of characters have a lot of power just because of how important some characters can be and not realise it until they disappear ("huh...no more re-roll 1s to hit kinda sucks..."). Their feather in the cap however comes from one of the most absurd stratagems which hands down is the most powerful in all supplements: Strike from the Shadows. It may seem simple enough until you realise how much you can hide with it such as Centurions. Deep Striking Centurions of ANY flavour will make you laugh with manic glee. Again, it may not be a turn 1 punch but its a turn 2 punch they ether bubble harder than an ork bubblechucka or suddenly have centurions in the back passage tearing apart any and all backline support. While they may lack some of the more stand out power housing of other chapters, they keep an edge in having some of the more notable tricks of the family.

[Archon_77]

Really struggling with the point of this thread.... how can it not lead to terrible feelings and folks arguing?  Regardless of any real or perceived power levels Marines as a whole are competitive, and in the hands of the right players and with a well built list we have a chance to beat ANYTHING.  Every single army that has gotten a book in the past 5 months has a very active community right here on BoLS, so we can brainstorm with similar players any issues or tactics that might arise.  Power gamers are going to min/max and buy a new army every meta shift,  and more casual players/lore nuts/fluffy folks are going to paint whatever looks best/has the best story/etc. I don't see the point in arguing whether Space Ninjas or Smurfs are better at the moment other than wanting to low key vent about frustrations you may have with your own book.  ALSO we have a MAJOR event coming up in the Psychic awakening that GW has said will lead to major shifts in both fluff and crunch.   Perhaps at the very least we could wait until all the Marine Supplements are out, and defiantly do some analysis as to how we stand as a faction after the Awakening?  To do so now just seems like it will lead to threads getting locked and bad blood.

[Ishagu]

No one should be getting upset, it's just a view of the "power" and varieties of play the supplements provide.

[Mandragola]

Really struggling with the point of this thread.... how can it not lead to terrible feelings and folks arguing?  Regardless of any real or perceived power levels Marines as a whole are competitive, and in the hands of the right players and with a well built list we have a chance to beat ANYTHING.  Every single army that has gotten a book in the past 5 months has a very active community right here on BoLS, so we can brainstorm with similar players any issues or tactics that might arise.  Power gamers are going to min/max and buy a new army every meta shift,  and more casual players/lore nuts/fluffy folks are going to paint whatever looks best/has the best story/etc. I don't see the point in arguing whether Space Ninjas or Smurfs are better at the moment other than wanting to low key vent about frustrations you may have with your own book.  ALSO we have a MAJOR event coming up in the Psychic awakening that GW has said will lead to major shifts in both fluff and crunch.   Perhaps at the very least we could wait until all the Marine Supplements are out, and defiantly do some analysis as to how we stand as a faction after the Awakening?  To do so now just seems like it will lead to threads getting locked and bad blood.

 

Agreed. It’s quite interesting to hear people say why X or Y is good, but none of us like to hear why our chosen army is bad.

 

I could go off on why I think my Crimson Fists are best. To be honest I don’t know if they are – but I know they work pretty well and I have reasonably good results with them.

 

In so far as I’ve got any conclusion it’s that there are some chapters that work better than others with particular units or strategies. So I’ll probably want to take a lot of bolt weapons and also rapid-firing heavy weapons (perhaps with some overlap here).

 

I’m happy that the supplements seem to have managed to capture the things that the different chapters are actually supposed to be good at, which doesn’t always quite happen (e.g. Catachans being the best tank regiment for IG). It actually seems that White Scars are the fastest, Imperial Fists are the best at shooting stuff, Iron Hands are the best for Mech, and so on.

 

So basically, once we get the last of the FAQs, I think we’ll be in a very good place.

[emperorpants]

Really struggling with the point of this thread.... how can it not lead to terrible feelings and folks arguing?  Regardless of any real or perceived power levels Marines as a whole are competitive, and in the hands of the right players and with a well built list we have a chance to beat ANYTHING.  Every single army that has gotten a book in the past 5 months has a very active community right here on BoLS, so we can brainstorm with similar players any issues or tactics that might arise.  Power gamers are going to min/max and buy a new army every meta shift,  and more casual players/lore nuts/fluffy folks are going to paint whatever looks best/has the best story/etc. I don't see the point in arguing whether Space Ninjas or Smurfs are better at the moment other than wanting to low key vent about frustrations you may have with your own book.  ALSO we have a MAJOR event coming up in the Psychic awakening that GW has said will lead to major shifts in both fluff and crunch.   Perhaps at the very least we could wait until all the Marine Supplements are out, and defiantly do some analysis as to how we stand as a faction after the Awakening?  To do so now just seems like it will lead to threads getting locked and bad blood.

No one seems to be getting upset so far...honestly, it's a just a fun discussion about how the supplements stack up.  What is wrong with that?  It's been very interesting so far.  I think the issue is that you are coming at it from an arguing perspective.  I believe it was meant as, and so far has been, a pleasant discussion on how the supplements compare.  When did it become bad to discuss the relative power levels of armies?

[emperorpants]

 

Really struggling with the point of this thread.... how can it not lead to terrible feelings and folks arguing?  Regardless of any real or perceived power levels Marines as a whole are competitive, and in the hands of the right players and with a well built list we have a chance to beat ANYTHING.  Every single army that has gotten a book in the past 5 months has a very active community right here on BoLS, so we can brainstorm with similar players any issues or tactics that might arise.  Power gamers are going to min/max and buy a new army every meta shift,  and more casual players/lore nuts/fluffy folks are going to paint whatever looks best/has the best story/etc. I don't see the point in arguing whether Space Ninjas or Smurfs are better at the moment other than wanting to low key vent about frustrations you may have with your own book.  ALSO we have a MAJOR event coming up in the Psychic awakening that GW has said will lead to major shifts in both fluff and crunch.   Perhaps at the very least we could wait until all the Marine Supplements are out, and defiantly do some analysis as to how we stand as a faction after the Awakening?  To do so now just seems like it will lead to threads getting locked and bad blood.

 

Agreed. It’s quite interesting to hear people say why X or Y is good, but none of us like to hear why our chosen army is bad.

 

I could go off on why I think my Crimson Fists are best. To be honest I don’t know if they are – but I know they work pretty well and I have reasonably good results with them.

 

In so far as I’ve got any conclusion it’s that there are some chapters that work better than others with particular units or strategies. So I’ll probably want to take a lot of bolt weapons and also rapid-firing heavy weapons (perhaps with some overlap here).

 

I’m happy that the supplements seem to have managed to capture the things that the different chapters are actually supposed to be good at, which doesn’t always quite happen (e.g. Catachans being the best tank regiment for IG). It actually seems that White Scars are the fastest, Imperial Fists are the best at shooting stuff, Iron Hands are the best for Mech, and so on.

 

So basically, once we get the last of the FAQs, I think we’ll be in a very good place.

 

 

Actually, I am an Ultramarine player.  I have around 22k points of Ultramarines as of my last attempt to point out my collection.  They are my main army.  I am one of the people saying Ultras are the weakest supplement.  Again, they are a very strong army.  One of the better armies in 40k.  Being the weakest of a generally very strong release isn't something to be ashamed of.  I guess I just don't understand why a thread talking about the relative power levels of the supplements is a problem.

[Mandragola]

 

 

Really struggling with the point of this thread.... how can it not lead to terrible feelings and folks arguing?  Regardless of any real or perceived power levels Marines as a whole are competitive, and in the hands of the right players and with a well built list we have a chance to beat ANYTHING.  Every single army that has gotten a book in the past 5 months has a very active community right here on BoLS, so we can brainstorm with similar players any issues or tactics that might arise.  Power gamers are going to min/max and buy a new army every meta shift,  and more casual players/lore nuts/fluffy folks are going to paint whatever looks best/has the best story/etc. I don't see the point in arguing whether Space Ninjas or Smurfs are better at the moment other than wanting to low key vent about frustrations you may have with your own book.  ALSO we have a MAJOR event coming up in the Psychic awakening that GW has said will lead to major shifts in both fluff and crunch.   Perhaps at the very least we could wait until all the Marine Supplements are out, and defiantly do some analysis as to how we stand as a faction after the Awakening?  To do so now just seems like it will lead to threads getting locked and bad blood.

 

Agreed. It’s quite interesting to hear people say why X or Y is good, but none of us like to hear why our chosen army is bad.

 

I could go off on why I think my Crimson Fists are best. To be honest I don’t know if they are – but I know they work pretty well and I have reasonably good results with them.

 

In so far as I’ve got any conclusion it’s that there are some chapters that work better than others with particular units or strategies. So I’ll probably want to take a lot of bolt weapons and also rapid-firing heavy weapons (perhaps with some overlap here).

 

I’m happy that the supplements seem to have managed to capture the things that the different chapters are actually supposed to be good at, which doesn’t always quite happen (e.g. Catachans being the best tank regiment for IG). It actually seems that White Scars are the fastest, Imperial Fists are the best at shooting stuff, Iron Hands are the best for Mech, and so on.

 

So basically, once we get the last of the FAQs, I think we’ll be in a very good place.

 

 

Actually, I am an Ultramarine player.  I have around 22k points of Ultramarines as of my last attempt to point out my collection.  They are my main army.  I am one of the people saying Ultras are the weakest supplement.  Again, they are a very strong army.  One of the better armies in 40k.  Being the weakest of a generally very strong release isn't something to be ashamed of.  I guess I just don't understand why a thread talking about the relative power levels of the supplements is a problem.

 

 

Fair enough then. Personally, I find myself leaping to the defence of my Crimson Fists when anyone suggests they're anything but the best. That's not particularly helpful though, I realise.

 

There's some good analysis in this thread, so it does useful things.

[Archon_77]

I guess in that light it does make a lot of sense. . . I was just thinking about what COULD be and not what currently is.  Though it does seem that there are some very vehement defenses of tier lists going on.  

[L30n1d4s]

I think Ultramarines are actually one of the most capable Supplements, of the six released so far, despite not being as powerful on "face value" as other Space Marine factions.

 

Specifically, they remind me a lot of the old, quasi-famous Tactica on Grey Knights from 4th Edition titled "The Way of the Water Warrior;" at the time, that tactica was based on the Daemonhunters which, compared to the infamous 5th edition Grey Knight Codex, was considered one of the toughest/least competitive armies for a player to use by most 40K fans.

 

Despite this, the premise of the "Way of the Water Warrior" Tactica was that there were multiple types of armies in 40K (i.e. "earth" armies = durable/board-control focused; "fire" armies = assault/damage output focused; "air" armies = mobility/objective focused), but that in the end the most capable army was the "water" based Grey Knights who, while not as good in any of the "fire" or "air" or "earth" armies in terms of specialization or outright power in any particular phase of the game, they were the most adaptable to the circumstances on the table and to what your thinking opponent could throw at you.... as such, in the hands of a skilled General, he contended that Grey Knights could be one of the most potent armies, but it required a very different mind-set from what most players have, where they went into a battle with a purpose built plan to try and do certain "strategies" that they had based their army type around.

 

This adaptability reminds a great deal of the Ultramarines, not only in their fluff/lore, but in the rules they actually got in their Supplement.

 

Here are some specific examples of how the Sons of Guilliman are suited to be the most adaptable of the Astartes factions and, hence, the one of the best "Water Warrior" in the game:

 

 

STRATAGEMS---

1 - Rapid Redeployment -- The ability to redeploy ANY three UM units after deployment is done/Seize the Initiative, but before the first turn, is one of the most underrated abilities in the game right now, I think. If you have first turn, then you can easily reset your firing lanes (or even charging lanes, if you have units like Bikers that might be able to make a first turn charge) to take full advantage of their abilities/not waste them due to canny deployment by your opponent.

 

2 - Squad Doctrines -- The ability to simply snap your fingers and change the Doctrine for any Infantry/Biker unit you want, regardless of the Turn or current Doctrine, is exceptional, as it allows you to "tailor" your fighting capability to what your opponent is doing and the circumstances on the table. Most obviously, you can get into the Tactical Doctrine early for units like Drop Pod Grav Cannon Devastators, Boltstorm Aggressors disembarking from a Repulsor, Intercessors that want to move and still Rapid Fire and maximum range. Perhaps less obviously, it lets you set up things like Vanguard

Veterans using the Assault Doctrine on turn 1 as they charge out of a Drop Pod, allowing Eliminators to use the Devastator Doctrine on turn 2 even when the rest of your army has moved on to the Tactical doctrine, etc.

 

3 - Fall Back and Re-engage -- The ability to fall back, shoot (at full BS), and then charge again is exceptional, especially as it can be applied to any unit again and again, maximizing their abilities each turn and still impacting both the shooting and fight phases. For example, if you are in the Tactical Doctrine, an Invictor Warsuit with an Ironhail Autocannon that your opponent has tied up in Combat can fall back, shoot all its weapons at full BS (it has in essence the old "Relentless" USR because of the Tactical Doctrine), then charge all over again to do damage to any enemy unit in CC and protect itself from return shooting next turn. Similarly, a max squad of Intercessors Veterans can shoot, charge into combat with 4A per model (or more, with Relic support), then next turn fall back, shoot and charge all over again, for maximum damage output all game long.

 

 

RELICS ---

1 - Standard of Macragge Inviolate -- Providing a Fearless bubble at 12", +1A at 6" and a 50% chance to shoot before dying at for nearby UM models makes this a super versatile Relic that impacts several phases of the game and, for "free," gives even basic UM units significant melee capability and makes dedicated close combat units (like Aggressors, Assault Centurions, Smash Captains, Vanguard Veterans) downright deadly in the Fight phase.

 

2 - Sanctic Halo -- Not only providing a 3++ save without needing to have a Storm Shield (which makes it available for multiple models and also gives you more weapons options for your Captain's "second hand"), this Relic allows you another Deny the Witch in the army, either improving your coverage if you already have Psykers or giving you a chance if you do not have any Psychic support. While pretty simple, this one Relic can make a big difference in keeping your WL alive and continuing to push out essential re-rolls all game long.

 

3 - Seal of Oath -- I think this is the single best Relic in the game right now, bar none. The ability to see what forces your opponent has brought to the fight, determine a "lynchpin" unit in that army (be it an Imperial Knight, a key character with auras, a unit with exceptional shooting abilities that forms his "fire base," etc. etc.), and then provide the old Guilliman rerolls to Hit/rerolls to Wound in both shooting and combat for all UM within 6" of the bearer against that "lynchpin" unit is just exceptional. In some games, using this is as simple as lining up all your shooting units turn 1 and taking down the big bad enemy super unit like Magnus or Mortarion or a Riptide or Custodes Jetbikes or an Iron Hands Leviathan or a Seer Biker Council before they can even get into the fight. Other times, it can be much more nuanced, like using the Seal of Oath in conjunction with a squad of 10 Stalker Bolt Rifle Intercessors and the "Target Sighted" Strat to surgically remove that 'lynchpin" Big Mek with KFF or Shadowsun (with two turns worth of Kau'yon) or enemy Chapter Master providing re-rolls to an entire Space Marine "castle"before they can turn the tide against you.

 

 

WL TRAITS ---

1 - Adept of the Codex -- The ability to regenerate CPs, along with the UM Psychic power to gain even more CP and their special characters (Calgar and Guilliman) who give you free CP if they are the Warlord mean that UM have the best ability to use Stratagems all game long out of the various Astartes factions. This in itself is inherently valuable, since it doesn't matter how amazing your Stratagems are if you do not have any CP left to use them, and it continues with the UM theme of the "ultimate Water Warrior," since a strong supply of CP enables them to continue to adapt to circumstances of the battle

all game long by accessing the Strats that they need.

 

2 - Nobility Made Manifest -- Allowing all UM Bikers/Infantry within 6" of the Warlord to Heroically Intervene, just like characters, again provides the Ultramarines with an adaptability rare among all armies in 40K, especially when combined with their inherent ability to still fall back and shoot (at -1 to Hit), their special Strat mentioned above ("Fall Back and Re-Engage"), and another one of their Strats that allows three friendly UM units within 6" of a unit that is being charged to also fire Overwatch at the charging unit. Put another way, with access to this WL Trait and the Stratagems I just mentioned, UM can be assaulted by a very aggressive close combat army (i.e. like Genestealer Cults or Blood Angels or Orks) on turn 1 and a) hit that assaulting unit with lots of Overwatch, then Heroically Intervene with those same units to overwhelm the enemy forces that do make it into combat, then next turn fall back with everyone who is tied up and still shoot (and also charge, for at least one unit, using the Stratagem). Alternately, if they are against another shooty army (like Tau, Iron Hands, Astra Militarum, CWE, etc.), they can adapt to this as well by getting close in, shooting, charging (tying up the enemy firepower), and still being able to fall back out of combat and unleash even more firepower.

 

3 - Master of Strategy -- Similar to the "Squad Doctrines" Stratagem, this WL Trait allows you to give one unit the Tactical Doctrine (and, hence, also the UM "Super Doctrine") each turn, in this case on top of any other Doctrine that is active for the whole army. This means, for example, that you could have a squad of Veteran Intercessors with both the Tactical Doctrine and Assault Doctrine at the same time, giving them the ability to move and Rapid Fire at the full 30" with AP-2 Bolt Rifles, then charge and attack with AP-1 close combat attacks in the same turn. As with everything else, this gives UM enhanced flexibility/adaptability, which in turn enables them to maximize the combat power in all phases of the game and to respond to a variety of situations.

 

I could go on from here, particularly about the UM "Super Doctrine," the very flexible Characters they have access to, etc., but bottom line is that, because of their utility and adaptability, UM are potentially one of the very top choices out of all the new Astartes Supplements, much less out of all the faction options in 40K... put another way, they have the best "complimentary football" of all the Astartes factions, with their offense, defense, and special teams all working to make the entire force better as a whole.

Edited October 23, 2019 by L30n1d4s

[Daigo Cannon]

I will disagree only on Master of Strategy, it would be good if you could choose the doctrine you want to apply instead of only able to apply Tactical doctrine, as UM you want to move to Tactical on T2 and remain there for the rest of the game, making this WL to be wasted for the exception of T1.

Captain dakka is an awesome unit, it can be an anti-tank or anti-horde, able to apply MW on shoot and fights phase is great, even after charging next turn you can fall back, shoot and charge again.
Cassius is great, casting 2 litanies are great, +1 to hit +1 to wound, apply it to Centurions, agressors or a 10 man intercessors with RP 2 and you will be able to erase infantry or harm big units.
    It has been leaked lvl 2 Librarians and Chaplains will come with PA 3, lets see if this will be available for other chapters.
I feel Tigurius is not that strong but this is due to the librarian disciplines not that strong, I'm stuck on 4 good spells + smite from both disciplines.

[SoulessGod]

Yesterday on the Dark Artisans channel I watched an IF unit of 10 Stalker Bolt Rifle Primaris Marines with the big damage bolt rifle on the Sgt down Cawl with just 4 CP being spent. Edited October 24, 2019 by SoulessGod

[Brom MKIV]

Good he deserves it!

[Waking Dreamer]

Yesterday on the Dark Artisans channel I watched an IF unit of 10 Stalker Bolt Rifle Primaris Marines with the big damage bolt rifle on the Sgt down Cawl with just 4 CP being spent.

Gun down by his own creations, oh my...

[Lord_Caerolion]

He just keeps getting more and more like the Emperor. 

[chapter master 454]

 

Yesterday on the Dark Artisans channel I watched an IF unit of 10 Stalker Bolt Rifle Primaris Marines with the big damage bolt rifle on the Sgt down Cawl with just 4 CP being spent.

Gun down by his own creations, oh my...

 

 

Is this what is known as a "Cawl-ed" shot?

[templargdt]

So many great puns on this page of this topic.  Nicely done.

[Aurica]

I would rate UM higher than WS considering WS have to wait till turn 3 for their Chapter Doctrine to take effect.  I would also rate RG and UM to be equal, as they are more subtle and requires finesse to pull off

[Ishagu]

I would rate UM higher than WS considering WS have to wait till turn 3 for their Chapter Doctrine to take effect. I would also rate RG and UM to be equal, as they are more subtle and requires finesse to pull off

The Doctrine is only a small part of what makes the White Scars so potent. Their stratagems, psychic powers and traits are the key to their power. In fact White Scars are proving to be only marginally less successful than the Iron Hands when it comes to winning.