Ranking the Space Marine supplements

[Dumah]

 

Among the supplements there arises variant Hero Captains, such as Captain Dakka of the ultramarines 

Seen this mentioned twice in this thread now. searched the forum and couldn't find an answer.

 

Who/what is Captain Dakka of the ultramarines?

 

 

My guess is Captain on Bike with Paragon of War WLT  and the Vengeance of Ultramar Relic.

[Snazzy]

Following Psychic Awakenings, after a few games alongside and against the various chapters.

In order of strongest to weakest:

 

-Iron Hands

-White Scars/Raven Guard

-Imperial Fists/Salamanders/Dark Angels/Blood Angels

-Ultramarines/Black Templars

 

 

I can't judge the Grey Knights yet. The stuff looks good, but I'll need to give it a try.

 

 

I think the impact of Imperial Fists on the meta can't be understated.  They may not be the top of the heap.  Iron Hands has way too many options.  But, Fists are discouraging people from becoming overly reliant on vehicles.  

[Subtleknife]

-iron hands

-white scars, raven guard, IF

-salamanders, blood Angel's, dark Angel's

-ultras and black templars.

 

As an ultras player we have lost quite a few of our unique units and RG has been nerfed too much due to issues at the start of the edition

[tychobi]

S

Iron hands,

A+

Imperial Fist, Ultramarines, Salamanders

A

White Scars, Ravenguard

[Marshal Reinhard]

-Ultramarines/Black Templars

-ultras and black templars.

 

I know you guys like to downplay how well UM does because it detracts from the fact that UM are by far the best treated faction in general. But you do not get to rate your supplement as low as ours. We literally have HALF the number of stratagems as you.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Reinhard

[Subtleknife]

I will reiterate again. I think all the supplements are strong...just there has always got a to be a winner a loser when you rank them. Also strats arent about quantity it is how good they are. If you compare how goonhammer ranked the ultra and black templar strats BT have a lot more As and Bs than ultras, I feel they are pretty bang on in their assessment too. At the end of the day, it doesnt really matter to me, I enjoy painting and playing ultramarines so I am happy. Being ultra (no pun intended) competitive isnt important to me. Edited January 24, 2020 by Subtleknife

[Medjugorje]

the problem is to fix it out which and why the specific Supplement is so strong or not (meant to be).

 

For example I think in the most games the Black Templars (with normal B&B lists) are weaker then other the other chapters. And then you have to calculate that Iron Hands is not Iron Hands Successor ( Stealthy + Master Artisan). So the Black Templar supplement just count one chapter, the Ultramarines (lorewise 50% of all Marines) all 18 CTs in combination + the Ultramarines themselves.

 

And then there is always the problem that a weak Codex (or Supplement) can have one special list who is very strong in the meta like 3 Repulsor Executioners from the Black Templars which can have a 4++ and one of them 5+++ which is exactly the anti-list against each other 3xExecutioners list so far and with "Devot push" the perfect weapon against Thunderfire Cannon.

 

But then if we try:

 

1. Iron Hands (+Successors) + Imperial Fists

2.  Raven Guard / Imperial Fists Successors ( Crimson fists incl.)

3. Salamanders / Black Templars / Ultramarines (+Successors) / White Scars

4. Salamanders Successors / Raven Guard Successors / White Scars Successors

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I would say Ultramarines are towards the top of the list based on my game play and we have some excellent stratagems. We also are the only chapter to have a Primarch as well so please no belly aching here. Edited January 24, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Snazzy]

 

But then if we try:

 

1. Iron Hands (+Successors) + Imperial Fists

2.  Raven Guard / Imperial Fists Successors ( Crimson fists incl.)

3. Salamanders / Black Templars / Ultramarines (+Successors) / White Scars

4. Salamanders Successors / Raven Guard Successors / White Scars Successors

 

I am going to have to disagree on the RG Successors.  I would argue that the Successors are potentially more potent because they can use the Super Doctrine, while making use of the weird emphasis on the Fight Phase RG has built in.  The standard RG traits don't help along those lines, and some of the more successful RG lists i've seen include Eager For Battle, Whirlwind of Rage or even the psyker trait to exploit the Umbramancy chart.

[Hymnblade]

I have no idea how to rank BT holistically against other supplements.

 

I do think our Super Doctrine is easily one of the weakest, amounting to a 12.5%-25% damage buff on most targets, which only works when charging, on turn 3 or later. The targets where it would be most beneficial are the ones it doesn't work on. I'm also a bit miffed that we are the only Codex: Space Marines chapter without master-crafted weapons or the option to take an extra warlord trait.

 

But overall, I like our supplement. The existing Primaris unit selection, and the fact that melee and transports in general are kind of bad this edition, are bigger issues for BT than the rules in our supplement.

[Medjugorje]

I would say Ultramarines are towards the top of the list based on my game play and we have some excellent stratagems. We also are the only chapter to have a Primarch as well so please no belly aching here.

but your primarch is not that good. I prefer a smash captain + your chapter master + lieutenant - same point costs but the better slot.

[Medjugorje]

I have no idea how to rank BT holistically against other supplements.

 

I do think our Super Doctrine is easily one of the weakest, amounting to a 12.5%-25% damage buff on most targets, which only works when charging, on turn 3 or later. The targets where it would be most beneficial are the ones it doesn't work on. I'm also a bit miffed that we are the only Codex: Space Marines chapter without master-crafted weapons or the option to take an extra warlord trait.

 

But overall, I like our supplement. The existing Primaris unit selection, and the fact that melee and transports in general are kind of bad this edition, are bigger issues for BT than the rules in our supplement.

all codex books or supplements have just a few rules what makes them good or bad. Black Templars have some good stratagems and Relics - the WL-Traits are very bad.  In comparison - the Imperial fists have more stratagems (but the BT are way better) - they are played competitive just because of their doctrine ( while our is the weakest of them all).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

I would say Ultramarines are towards the top of the list based on my game play and we have some excellent stratagems. We also are the only chapter to have a Primarch as well so please no belly aching here.

but your primarch is not that good. I prefer a smash captain + your chapter master + lieutenant - same point costs but the better slot.

 

I don’t know why you say that because Guilliman is a total beat stick. On the flip side and kind of in agreement I have found the points sunk into him are better spent elsewhere however I rarely if ever use a Lieutenant and never a smash Captain. I used to play BA a lot - smash captains are guided missiles with short life expectancy. I feel over the course of a game the Chapter Master can survive and his buffs are stronger overall for the army.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

I would say Ultramarines are towards the top of the list based on my game play and we have some excellent stratagems. We also are the only chapter to have a Primarch as well so please no belly aching here.

but your primarch is not that good. I prefer a smash captain + your chapter master + lieutenant - same point costs but the better slot.

 

I don’t know why you say that because Guilliman is a total beat stick. On the flip side and kind of in agreement I have found the points sunk into him are better spent elsewhere however I rarely if ever use a Lieutenant and never a smash Captain. I used to play BA a lot - smash captains are guided missiles with short life expectancy. I feel over the course of a game the Chapter Master can survive and his buffs are stronger overall for the army.

 

i dont want to blame you but If you really think that Guilliman is a good choice then I cant take this seriously.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Did you read my whole reply ? ^^

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

I am of the opinion that the current supplements are one thing above all - fluffy. Every ability, stratagem, unit and relic in the things is fluffy as hell, and it makes for fun gameplay. I've been rocking the Raven Guard supplement rules for the past month, and I'm loving every second because I'm a narrative player.

[War Angel]

Enough of this, let’s get on to the real question. Who has the best psychic doctrine. I only know of the imperial fist one, and I’m not a fan of the fact that our alternate smite can be turned off by not putting a single model on terrain

[Aothaine]

People keep leaving out Blood Angels. I've seen some solid work from them with the PA update. To the point where people are starting to have to tailor their lists against them or be tabled. Also, I want to point out that the results from the recent LVO had a Raven Guard in the top 8, yet people keep placing them low on the chart. I don't quite understand that logic.

Enough of this, let’s get on to the real question. Who has the best psychic doctrine. I only know of the imperial fist one, and I’m not a fan of the fact that our alternate smite can be turned off by not putting a single model on terrain

 

Grey Knights for sure imho. Though there is an argument for Ultramarines.

[Snazzy]

Enough of this, let’s get on to the real question. Who has the best psychic doctrine. I only know of the imperial fist one, and I’m not a fan of the fact that our alternate smite can be turned off by not putting a single model on terrain

 

Iron Hands.  Just like everything category.

 

I appreciate Geomancy for the mini Orbital Bombardment (Iron inferno) and the opportunity to scream "Jump the Chasm!".

[Ishagu]

Salamanders, Raven Guard and White Scars have great psychic powers. Iron Hands got nerfed a bit but still have a solid discipline.

[Dracos]

. . . . I want to point out that the results from the recent LVO had a Raven Guard in the top 8, yet people keep placing them low on the chart. I don't quite understand that logic.

 

Two actually Raptors because Lias. The thing is IH drop a hammer on you the size of a T-Rex. Raven Guard "usually" still take meticulous planning to give their list a chance to win. I think people get turned off by the lack of interaction and crazy synergy the IH and FW units have. Hopefully they can leave the IH supplement alone from here on out and fix the issue when they rewrite the FW Indexes

[Lord_Caerolion]

People keep leaving out Blood Angels. I've seen some solid work from them with the PA update. To the point where people are starting to have to tailor their lists against them or be tabled. Also, I want to point out that the results from the recent LVO had a Raven Guard in the top 8, yet people keep placing them low on the chart. I don't quite understand that logic.

Enough of this, let’s get on to the real question. Who has the best psychic doctrine. I only know of the imperial fist one, and I’m not a fan of the fact that our alternate smite can be turned off by not putting a single model on terrain

 

Grey Knights for sure imho. Though there is an argument for Ultramarines.

Blood Angels aren't really a supplement though, they're a full Codex of their own.

[Aothaine]

 

Blood Angels aren't really a supplement though, they're a full Codex of their own.

 

Fair point. Still think it is silly to leave them out though.

[Ishagu]

I rate them very highly but I need more experience against them to really gauge them, and doubly so for the Dark Angels. Edited January 28, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They are both a lot better now.