Ranking the Space Marine supplements

[Waking Dreamer]

 

Enough of this, let’s get on to the real question. Who has the best psychic doctrine. I only know of the imperial fist one, and I’m not a fan of the fact that our alternate smite can be turned off by not putting a single model on terrain

 

 

Grey Knights for sure imho. Though there is an argument for Ultramarines.

With their new Inner Flame psychic power and a couple of Strats to boost it, one GK character was able to dish out 12 MW to one enemy unit in just one psychic phase.

 

Our psychic minds haven't yet unlocked the full potential of our new abilities but slowly and surely we are beginning to harness this psychic awakening!

[Claws and Effect]

Raven Guard successors are better than actual Raven Guard by a pretty wide margin.

 

They only lose access to Shrike and most of the relics, while keeping the Strategems and Surgical Strikes and also being able to trade their easily circumvented Chapter Tactic for ones that work better for them.

 

I'm guessing you'll find that all of them are in similar situations.

[Kallas]

Hopefully they can leave the IH supplement alone from here on out and fix the issue when they rewrite the FW Indexes

FW is not the problem; the IH supplement is. Still.

[Medjugorje]

I have no idea how to rank BT holistically against other supplements.

 

I do think our Super Doctrine is easily one of the weakest, amounting to a 12.5%-25% damage buff on most targets, which only works when charging, on turn 3 or later. The targets where it would be most beneficial are the ones it doesn't work on. I'm also a bit miffed that we are the only Codex: Space Marines chapter without master-crafted weapons or the option to take an extra warlord trait.

 

But overall, I like our supplement. The existing Primaris unit selection, and the fact that melee and transports in general are kind of bad this edition, are bigger issues for BT than the rules in our supplement.

not even 12,5 because you must calculate how much of those Auto-wounds would normally wound anyway.... so the Superdoctrine is pretty :cuss.

 

But I think the whole community dont realize how strong the 4++ relic; the "devot push" Stratagem is.

[Medjugorje]

I am of the opinion that the current supplements are one thing above all - fluffy. Every ability, stratagem, unit and relic in the things is fluffy as hell, and it makes for fun gameplay. I've been rocking the Raven Guard supplement rules for the past month, and I'm loving every second because I'm a narrative player.

Same thing for me. The Supplements are absolutly great. But in a View of Balance there are very huge problems. The power rating for Iron Hands is soo signifacant over the top... and there are combos which are not fun to play against if you want a fair game. Maybe there should be some nerfs for units in matched play so far.

 

Or GW should make some more differences by the game modus itself. 

 

- Open Play

- Matched Play

- Competitive Play / Tournament Play (where some fluffy combos and some things are just not allowed so far). 

 

So nobody loose the main thing why the game is played so far.

[Hymnblade]

not even 12,5 because you must calculate how much of those Auto-wounds would normally wound anyway.... so the Superdoctrine is pretty :cuss.

Yes, that's where I got 12.5% from. If you hit on 3s and wound on 3s, you'd usually get 12 hits and 8 wounds from 18 attacks, but with the doctrine you get 9 regular hits + 3 auto-wounds, which is 6 wounds + 3 auto-wounds, so you get 9/8=112.5% of the output.

 

If you wound on 4+, it's +25%. If you hit on 4+ or 2+, the math is a bit different, but in the same ballpark.

[Snazzy]

 

Hopefully they can leave the IH supplement alone from here on out and fix the issue when they rewrite the FW Indexes

FW is not the problem; the IH supplement is. Still.

 

 

Amen.  IH are still nasty, even without vehicles.  And, are we really going to ignore that they have 3 Chapter Traits?

[Medjugorje]

 

not even 12,5 because you must calculate how much of those Auto-wounds would normally wound anyway.... so the Superdoctrine is pretty .

Yes, that's where I got 12.5% from. If you hit on 3s and wound on 3s, you'd usually get 12 hits and 8 wounds from 18 attacks, but with the doctrine you get 9 regular hits + 3 auto-wounds, which is 6 wounds + 3 auto-wounds, so you get 9/8=112.5% of the output.

 

If you wound on 4+, it's +25%. If you hit on 4+ or 2+, the math is a bit different, but in the same ballpark.

 

1 attack with normal hits on 3+ are 0,5 wounds with doctrine and 0,44 wounds without. That makes just 6 percent in total against T3. So your math is correct but I prefer to calcalate this way.

[Hymnblade]

Yes,0.5 is 12.5% more than 0.44.

[Medjugorje]

if we compare this to the Blood Angels or Wolves its very annoying - although Scars not that good here but we are always last or on 3rd position.

[GenerationTerrorist]

In an era of Character Bubble-Buffs and Area-Denial, then Raven Guard are absolutely lethal IMHO.

This, linked with the likes of Phobos-Based units and Infiltration Stratagems, makes them an extremely special and fun Codex Chapter to run.

 

I've played a dozen or so 1000pt games with my Raven Guard fluffly list of Shrike + 10th Company, and have only one complaint - Lack of anti-armour.

(This will be rectified with the addition of a 2nd Company Vanguard of 2 MM Contemptors, a unit of Centurions and a Smash Captain)

 

Raven Guard are, IMHO, the most tactically flexible of the old Legions in this edition.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have not lost a game yet versus any other SM with my updated Smurf army.

[Medjugorje]

I have not lost a game yet versus any other SM with my updated Smurf army.

then try to beat the LVO-winner list.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I will indeed bruvha.

[Skywrath]

Position of the GK in the meta compared to the other chapters?

[tychobi]

Position of the GK in the meta compared to the other chapters?

Grey Knights are not space marines. But to answer the spirit of your question. Last. Dead last.

[Ishagu]

 

Position of the GK in the meta compared to the other chapters?

Grey Knights are not space marines. But to answer the spirit of your question. Last. Dead last.

Not anymore, definitely not. I've just seen them performing well at a local tournament, and I've been looking at some of the combinations of abilities.

 

I need to look into them more but there are definitely some tasty rules in the new supplement.

[Waking Dreamer]

 

 

Position of the GK in the meta compared to the other chapters?

Grey Knights are not space marines. But to answer the spirit of your question. Last. Dead last.

Not anymore, definitely not. I've just seen them performing well at a local tournament, and I've been looking at some of the combinations of abilities.

 

I need to look into them more but there are definitely some tasty rules in the new supplement.

 

 

Grey Knights just got pretty good results at Beachhead Brawl 2020.

 

Lawrence Baker from Tabletop Tactics has managed 6-0 with his mono GK Army at the event:

 

https://www.bestcoas...d=6&embed=false

 

He beat some pretty tough lists including Raven Guard successors.

[Dracos]

Bakers a great player and fun to watch on the tube. I'm happy to see GK having a good go, but that point system isn't intuitive. It looks like he's ranked 25 in Battle Points but 2nd in  ... ?

[Waking Dreamer]

Hmm, apparently the Raven Guard Successor included:

- 18 Centurions

- 3 Thunderfire Cannons

- 2 Whirlwinds

 

So...GK could be placed around Raven Guard Successor tier or higher now?

[Dracos]

You're going to need a laregr set of data before making any conclusions like that. A Faction has to be judged in enough settings that the factors of a few potentially skewed dice outcomes, or quality of opponents aren't giving you a false read on the Factions true value

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Regardless it’s an impressive showing and Spyder is a top player.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

Position of the GK in the meta compared to the other chapters?

Grey Knights are not space marines. But to answer the spirit of your question. Last. Dead last.

 

 

This is no longer true. I got pretty brutalised by a Paladin bomb in a tournament on the weekend. If he had not made a deployment mistake allowing me to grab a load of VP on the first 2 turns I would have had no chance. As it was I had little option but to retreat away from the lethal hail of smites and just hang onto my VP lead in a classic Crimson Fists defiant last stand.

 

If he had deployed better I would have been wrecked. I think they are a powerhouse army that requires skill to wield , one bad mistake and the game will be gone but if you get it right they can wreck almost anything.

[tychobi]

 

 

 

Position of the GK in the meta compared to the other chapters?

Grey Knights are not space marines. But to answer the spirit of your question. Last. Dead last.

This is no longer true. I got pretty brutalised by a Paladin bomb in a tournament on the weekend. If he had not made a deployment mistake allowing me to grab a load of VP on the first 2 turns I would have had no chance. As it was I had little option but to retreat away from the lethal hail of smites and just hang onto my VP lead in a classic Crimson Fists defiant last stand.

 

If he had deployed better I would have been wrecked. I think they are a powerhouse army that requires skill to wield , one bad mistake and the game will be gone but if you get it right they can wreck almost anything.

Good news! I like what psychic awakeaning has brought to grey knights. Buffs are the way to balance in my opinion.

[Waking Dreamer]

 

 

Position of the GK in the meta compared to the other chapters?

Grey Knights are not space marines. But to answer the spirit of your question. Last. Dead last.

 

 

This is no longer true. I got pretty brutalised by a Paladin bomb in a tournament on the weekend. If he had not made a deployment mistake allowing me to grab a load of VP on the first 2 turns I would have had no chance. As it was I had little option but to retreat away from the lethal hail of smites and just hang onto my VP lead in a classic Crimson Fists defiant last stand.

 

If he had deployed better I would have been wrecked. I think they are a powerhouse army that requires skill to wield , one bad mistake and the game will be gone but if you get it right they can wreck almost anything.

 

 

Well if you guys want to see how well GK can actually do now, how about the ultimate test of Lawrence's GK army vs a Tournament winning Iron Hands army list - commanded by the actual tournament Champion. That is, the 1st place Iron Hands player vs Lawrence the 2nd place in the 2020 Beachhead brawl. The battle that never took place at the tournament has been realized below in this 7th Shadow Round!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2Atv6BWUjg

 

 

EDIT: I haven't actually watched it myself since I'm getting ready to fly out tomorrow. But maybe by the time I land, someone will have posted some cool details / and have a discussion going. As of typing this I don't know who has actually emerged victorious...??

 

But for now, i'll just end by saying - go Lawrence! For Titan!

Edited February 22, 2020 by Waking Dreamer