Psychic Awakening Book 2 - why so many Chaos Legions?

[Brother-serpent Tylydox]

I personally don't see a point of so many Undivided showing up for this stage.  Emperor's Children - fine, Eldar killing each other and Slaanesh is very much interested.  World Eaters?  I guess Khorne would want to screw with Slaanesh, just for the heck of it.  Word Bearers?  Probably because they are the ones who caused that "Psychic Awakening" on the chaos part at least.  But Alpha Legion, and Night Lords, and Iron Warriors?  They are not the Major League Legions, they get scraps just to get by.  Well O.K. the Iron Warriors probably get a call from Abaddon once in while "Yo! You boys want to get some Imperil Fists smashed and their fortresses?"  But the other two are basically the same when it comes to the significance of their actions.  GW likes to pretend that Alpha Legion is "super covert Chaos operations" but from the books they print Alpha Legion gets its arse kicked pretty much all the time.  And the Night Lords just roam the space and pirate stuff.  So all three of them in one campaign can't play an equal role from the story point of view.  Your thoughts?

[betrayer41]

Honestly just seems like they crammed em all in just to say they got their "updates" and be done with it.  Real shame I was hoping for a decent narrative with BT facing off against one main enemy not "chaos"

[Marshal Loss]

GW are putting so many Legions in the book for a couple of reasons: firstly, these 6 have far less material than the Black Legion, Death Guard and Thousand Sons, which means that they're an obvious target for a rules update. It's probably quite simple for them to update the 2017 TL supplement into 8th ed. This leads into the second reason: it's an easy win for GW, because coming up with some warlord traits/stratagems/relics for those 6 doesn't require a lot of effort really but will still appeal to a broad spectrum of CSM fans. It also helps keep WE/EC fans happy until they eventually get their time in the sun, and acts as a sort of mediocre consolation prize for us getting the world's laziest codex earlier this year. Even if they only release a single new CSM model - the Sorcerer - tons of us are going to buy the book for the rules alone. Easy $ for GW with little investment required.

 

Don't get me wrong, I fully expect the story to be rubbish. Phoenix Rising was rubbish, the Gathering Storm was rubbish, Vigilus was rubbish. If this is good I'll be pleasantly surprised/shocked. But I don't have anything against lots of Traitor Legions being involved in a single conflict, and we simply don't have any of the details yet. Some Legions might be represented by individual warbands rather than mighty warhosts after all, with one Legion taking a starring role and the others just being minor actors in the background. Or perhaps Abaddon has had this force put together, or some other charismatic Chaos Lord, or this new world (Talledus) is simply an irresistible opportunity in the Imperium's weakened state, a beacon that is drawing CSM to it like moth to a flame. There are plenty of ways to justify the inclusion of so many forces, and from a practical perspective, I don't have a problem with GW doing it this way. Can't criticise anything until we know more.

 

Dunno if I'd call the Iron Warriors a "non-major league Legion" either, they still have their Primarch and are a force of formidable strength (they're able to go toe to toe with Mortarion and his Death Guard after all). By contrast, the AL & NL lack any kind of real potential for centralized leadership, but that doesn't preclude their participation.

 

TLDR sharpen the pitchfork by all means but don't start waving it around just yet

[Marshal Reinhard]

Expecting everyone in the book to get equal focus or coverage is just not realistic, it can't really happen. We don't know whether one chaos faction will be taking the charge, but it'd be easier to focus the narrative that way.

[Marshal Loss]

Expecting everyone in the book to get equal focus or coverage is just not realistic, it can't really happen. We don't know whether one chaos faction will be taking the charge, but it'd be easier to focus the narrative that way.

 

Admittedly, it could be like Vigilus II (where nearly every Legion is present, but each actor only pops up for a couple of pages before the narrative moves on to another warzone) or Traitor's Hate (similar to Vigilus II, but with greater focus on installments rather than concurrent engagements). Either way it's too early to say.

[DeadFingers]

It could well be that only one or two Legions are actually involved in the narrative, but they all are getting rules due to the rules themselves applying to all main Codex CSM Legions (with Black Legion as the exception) and not any Legion in particular. It certainly would be an easy and fast way to cover all of them in one go instead of having to shoehorn one or two of them into the narrative of multiple Psychic Awakening Volumes.

 

I'm personally more intrigued by the Black Legion being apparently excluded, and what ind of narrative and/or rules are they getting later on.

[Marshal Loss]

I'm personally more intrigued by the Black Legion being apparently excluded, and what ind of narrative and/or rules are they getting later on.

 

That's not in the least bit surprising though; they were the lead actors in a campaign book only c. 6 months ago, and already have mountains more rules than all of the other Traitor Legions. Wouldn't be surprised if in the future the rules in PA2 were republished with the BL rules from VB into a Traitor Legions Supplement 2.0.

[betrayer41]

Ive never actually bought a campaign book like this before mainly bc world eaters havent really been in the spotlight...or minotaurs.  I guess i assumed because they were in the book they would get lore and rules.  So some of the legions might just get some updated rules and not play a true part?

Edited October 21, 2019 by betrayer41

[DeadFingers]

That's not in the least bit surprising though; they were the lead actors in a campaign book only c. 6 months ago, and already have mountains more rules than all of the other Traitor Legions. Wouldn't be surprised if in the future the rules in PA2 were republished with the BL rules from VB into a Traitor Legions Supplement 2.0.

I'm not surprised, just very interested. All the Psychic Awakening campaigns should be taking place during the Indomitus Crusade, and Vigilus supposedly happened during that time too, so is the Black Legion's narrative for this happening before Vigilus? After Vigilus? Maybe during Vigilus on another front?

[Marshal Loss]

 

That's not in the least bit surprising though; they were the lead actors in a campaign book only c. 6 months ago, and already have mountains more rules than all of the other Traitor Legions. Wouldn't be surprised if in the future the rules in PA2 were republished with the BL rules from VB into a Traitor Legions Supplement 2.0.

I'm not surprised, just very interested. All the Psychic Awakening campaigns should be taking place during the Indomitus Crusade, and Vigilus supposedly happened during that time too, so is the Black Legion's narrative for this happening before Vigilus? After Vigilus? Maybe during Vigilus on another front?

 

 

Vigilus Ablaze took place after the Indomitus Crusade, not during.

[DeadFingers]

Vigilus Ablaze took place after the Indomitus Crusade, not during.

Hmm, Lexicanum has the timeline wrong then. In any case, that means we may get a look at what Abaddon did between Cadia and Vigilus, so that should be an interesting little storyline.

[Marshal Loss]

 

Vigilus Ablaze took place after the Indomitus Crusade, not during.

Hmm, Lexicanum has the timeline wrong then. In any case, that means we may get a look at what Abaddon did between Cadia and Vigilus, so that should be an interesting little storyline.

 

 

I don't use Lexicanum and so can't comment on its reliability, but Marneus Calgar is moaning about feeling useless because he's not a Primaris marine in Haley's Dark Imperium novel, which explicitly takes place after the IC, so logically either a) Vigilus Ablaze takes place after the IC or 2) GW made a massive chronological mistake

[MegaVolt87]

Either the book is actually two, one loyalist one traitor. It could also be a really thick book with high page count. I don't see how all the mentioned legions could get what BL got in VA if the page count isn't high. At a minimum, we deserve what BL got as a minimum in VA for the other legions.I hope we get a new possessed kit styled the same as the greater possesed as oru new unit or power armoured chosen. Even if they were in a box of 5 with lots of upgrades for the chosen would be nice. Its not going to be like that though and am just mentally preparing myself for more disappointment because likely reality. 

[DeadFingers]

I don't use Lexicanum and so can't comment on its reliability, but Marneus Calgar is moaning about feeling useless because he's not a Primaris marine in Haley's Dark Imperium novel, which explicitly takes place after the IC, so logically either a) Vigilus Ablaze takes place after the IC or 2) GW made a massive chronological mistake

The Vigilus-Indomitus timeline is really weird, so they're probably using Warp-time shenanigans as an excuse. The Vigilus campaign/War of Beasts supposedly takes off about a year (on the planet) after the opening of the Cicatrix. Guilliman and the Crusade probably use the Nachmund Gauntlet to go into the Imperium Nihilus, fight at Baal and wherever else, cross again and go back to Ultramar, then send Calgar back to Vigilus. All before Haarken even shows up.

 

Seems like time on Vigilus is distorted and slowed down compared to the rest of the Galaxy, or else I don't really know how to understand it. So maybe part of the Vigilus scuffle takes place during the Indomitus Crusade, and part of it after? It certainly doesn't help that GW are intentionally glossing over dates for this stuff.

[MegaVolt87]

 

I don't use Lexicanum and so can't comment on its reliability, but Marneus Calgar is moaning about feeling useless because he's not a Primaris marine in Haley's Dark Imperium novel, which explicitly takes place after the IC, so logically either a) Vigilus Ablaze takes place after the IC or 2) GW made a massive chronological mistake

The Vigilus-Indomitus timeline is really weird, so they're probably using Warp-time shenanigans as an excuse. The Vigilus campaign/War of Beasts supposedly takes off about a year (on the planet) after the opening of the Cicatrix. Guilliman and the Crusade probably use the Nachmund Gauntlet to go into the Imperium Nihilus, fight at Baal and wherever else, cross again and go back to Ultramar, then send Calgar back to Vigilus. All before Haarken even shows up.

 

Seems like time on Vigilus is distorted and slowed down compared to the rest of the Galaxy, or else I don't really know how to understand it. So maybe part of the Vigilus scuffle takes place during the Indomitus Crusade, and part of it after? It certainly doesn't help that GW are intentionally glossing over dates for this stuff.

 

 

I could be wrong, but the way I saw it was that Calgar was on Vigilus a while before he crossed the Rubicon as far as timing. I think Vigilus is Calgars heroic journey IMO. 

[SyNidus]

Maybe they added those legions because these are the ones that'll be updated.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

I don't use Lexicanum and so can't comment on its reliability, but Marneus Calgar is moaning about feeling useless because he's not a Primaris marine in Haley's Dark Imperium novel, which explicitly takes place after the IC, so logically either a) Vigilus Ablaze takes place after the IC or 2) GW made a massive chronological mistake

The Vigilus-Indomitus timeline is really weird, so they're probably using Warp-time shenanigans as an excuse. The Vigilus campaign/War of Beasts supposedly takes off about a year (on the planet) after the opening of the Cicatrix. Guilliman and the Crusade probably use the Nachmund Gauntlet to go into the Imperium Nihilus, fight at Baal and wherever else, cross again and go back to Ultramar, then send Calgar back to Vigilus. All before Haarken even shows up.

 

Seems like time on Vigilus is distorted and slowed down compared to the rest of the Galaxy, or else I don't really know how to understand it. So maybe part of the Vigilus scuffle takes place during the Indomitus Crusade, and part of it after? It certainly doesn't help that GW are intentionally glossing over dates for this stuff.

 

 

Because time is all wonky now, particularly in regards to the Noctis Aeterna, which they seem to be implying took the same "objective" time everywhere, but each planet experienced different subjective lengths, with Terra being for a month, but others being years or decades, and others just hours or days, etc. Hell, the Blood Angels had the Indomitus Crusade reach them the moment the Rift hit them, and it hit for what was apparently only moments.

[Lord_Starscream]

GW are putting so many Legions in the book for a couple of reasons: firstly, these 6 have far less material than the Black Legion, Death Guard and Thousand Sons, which means that they're an obvious target for a rules update. It's probably quite simple for them to update the 2017 TL supplement into 8th ed. This leads into the second reason: it's an easy win for GW, because coming up with some warlord traits/stratagems/relics for those 6 doesn't require a lot of effort really but will still appeal to a broad spectrum of CSM fans. It also helps keep WE/EC fans happy until they eventually get their time in the sun, and acts as a sort of mediocre consolation prize for us getting the world's laziest codex earlier this year. Even if they only release a single new CSM model - the Sorcerer - tons of us are going to buy the book for the rules alone. Easy $ for GW with little investment required.

 

Don't get me wrong, I fully expect the story to be rubbish. Phoenix Rising was rubbish, the Gathering Storm was rubbish, Vigilus was rubbish. If this is good I'll be pleasantly surprised/shocked. But I don't have anything against lots of Traitor Legions being involved in a single conflict, and we simply don't have any of the details yet. Some Legions might be represented by individual warbands rather than mighty warhosts after all, with one Legion taking a starring role and the others just being minor actors in the background. Or perhaps Abaddon has had this force put together, or some other charismatic Chaos Lord, or this new world (Talledus) is simply an irresistible opportunity in the Imperium's weakened state, a beacon that is drawing CSM to it like moth to a flame. There are plenty of ways to justify the inclusion of so many forces, and from a practical perspective, I don't have a problem with GW doing it this way. Can't criticise anything until we know more.

 

Dunno if I'd call the Iron Warriors a "non-major league Legion" either, they still have their Primarch and are a force of formidable strength (they're able to go toe to toe with Mortarion and his Death Guard after all). By contrast, the AL & NL lack any kind of real potential for centralized leadership, but that doesn't preclude their participation.

 

TLDR sharpen the pitchfork by all means but don't start waving it around just yet

 

To be fair, I thought the first Vigilius Book was great. It's book 2 that was... ... it was awful.

[Karhedron]

I don't use Lexicanum and so can't comment on its reliability, but Marneus Calgar is moaning about feeling useless because he's not a Primaris marine in Haley's Dark Imperium novel, which explicitly takes place after the IC, so logically either a) Vigilus Ablaze takes place after the IC or 2) GW made a massive chronological mistake

Trouble is of course that when Guy Haley wrote DI, he didn't know that there would be a Primaris Calgar coming out 2-ish years later. If Vigilus is supposed to take place before the end of the Indomitus Crusade then yes, it is a mistake to have Primaris Calgar there.

 

[Trevak Dal]

I'm kinda worried about the weird World Eater one.

 

Like, it's world eaters...but looks more Black Legiony, so I expect disappointment.

 

I wish I could just kick a door down, or blow through a wall and get all the stuff and post it online so it's done and did and we know the depths of how bad or good it will be and what (if any) miniatures are coming.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Trevak Dal

[DeadFingers]

I'm kinda worried about the weird World Eater one.

 

Like, it's world eaters...but looks more Black Legiony, so I expect disappointment.

You mean the icon? I dunno, their post-heresy symbol has had the Chaos star incorporated into it for a while now, this one just makes the star more prominent. Looks more like the original.

 

[betrayer41]

Haha if they could just release zerkers that’s literally the only unit in a world eater army haha

[Trevak Dal]

I'm open to new stuff, so long as it doesn't suck. But if it's "oh here's not vanguard veterans 1 attack base lightning claw assault marines with an invulnerable save that have a deep strike mechanic that is range dependent and have a hard time assaulting from deep strike to make that mechanic work, still strength 4 and one wound by the way, lots of value here" guys or fatty terminators that are slow and hard to deliver or-you get my point.

 

If they released a sprue with 8 new plastic chain axes and bolt pistols with pads on them, maybe with some power fists, it'd be decent of them.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Trevak Dal

[DuskRaider]

I don't understand, what's the problem with individual Legions getting updated rules or a spotlight, be it ever so small? Aside from the basic rules for each one (which are lesser rules now to Chapters, sadly) they don't really have much.

[Doctor Perils]

I don't understand, what's the problem with individual Legions getting updated rules or a spotlight, be it ever so small? Aside from the basic rules for each one (which are lesser rules now to Chapters, sadly) they don't really have much.

Yeah I think it's the comparison with the SM and the fact that the ECs an WEs are also included (probably indicating no stand alone codices for them any time soon)