Salamanders Tactics Thoughts

[jgascoine011]

Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on the new salamanders, and if there are any good tactics. Personally i think that they are one of the weaker chapters.

 

 

Chapter Tactics

This is a really good chapter tactic, especially the re-roll. The ignore AP-1 is also great. 

This benefits alot of 1 shot weapons, so basically out melta type guns

 

Combat Doctrine

This i think is a really poorly designed doctrine.

It gives +1 to wound on flamer and melta weapons...which is really good...but only when the tacticle doctrine is in effect....which is terrible.

Most of the flamer weapons are heavy, so you are giving up the additional -1Ap to get +1 to wound. On melta weapons this is less of a problem because AP-4 is decent enough, but melta weapons suck. 

Think about it, I can drop pod in vulkan and 4 devestators with multi-meltas and get 5 shots that his on 4+ (2 hit on 3+) with re-roll to hit and wound and D6 damage. Or for less points, drop pod in a chapter master with 4 devestators with grav cannons, using the grav strat, getting 20 shots hitting on 4+ (8 hit on 3+) and re-roll to hit and wound, with D3 damage.

 

 

Characters

This is where i think the main strength of the salamanders lie.

They can just get stupidly strong characters. A chaplin venerable dreadnought with T9, or a captain hitting at S9.

Vulkan can also be pretty good with the right units.

 

Stratagems

Now I do think salamanders do have the best strats to use. Your problem is going to be CP. I would expect most salamander list to run duel battalion, 3 bare scout squads and 3 intercessors with stalker bolts.

 

Units

Warsuites with vulkan could be great.

Drop pod in vulkan next to a warsuite and get 12 autohits doing mortal wounds on 4s, with re-rolls, averaging 9 mortal wounds + however many wounds the flamer does.

 

Agressor sqauds with flamers could be amazing, but really hard to use. I actually think just take 3 and put them in a repulsor executioner. Move the repulsor up 10" and drop the did not move strat on it to shoot twice. Next turn get out, drop 5 CP and flame for 72 autohitting S4 flamers, with 24 of them doing mortal wounds on a 4+, with +2 to wound.

 

Eliminators and Intercessors with stalker bolts are great with the salamander re-roll

 

Other than that I dont know what else really works with salamanders

Edited October 23, 2019 by jgascoine011

[SoulessGod]

I like the Combat doctrine for the same reason I've come to like the Imperial Fists Combat Doctrine, Chapter Tactics combo. It affects weapons outside of this being buffed by the active doctrine, meaning you don't have to forego having any benefit in the devistator doctrine to make the most of your tactical doctrine when you get there.

 

In the tactical doctrine you still get a buff to heavy flamers and multi meltas (which also benefit from your rerolls) you then get +1 Ap and +1 to wound on Flamers which are assault weapons on aggressors, assault centurions, assault squads and tac squads and veteran squads. Meltaguns are also assault weapons.

 

Plus this means your not restricted to stalker bolt rifles, grab bolt rifles and have -2Ap, your tac marines get a boost alongside their special weapons and can put on a bit more pressure.

 

Plus being infantry heavy makes the most of stratagem like self sacrifice which combined with warlord traits and psychic powers could be a little nuts for survivability.

[jgascoine011]

I like the Combat doctrine for the same reason I've come to like the Imperial Fists Combat Doctrine, Chapter Tactics combo. It affects weapons outside of this being buffed by the active doctrine, meaning you don't have to forego having any benefit in the devistator doctrine to make the most of your tactical doctrine when you get there.

 

In the tactical doctrine you still get a buff to heavy flamers and multi meltas (which also benefit from your rerolls) you then get +1 Ap and +1 to wound on Flamers which are assault weapons on aggressors, assault centurions, assault squads and tac squads and veteran squads. Meltaguns are also assault weapons.

 

Plus this means your not restricted to stalker bolt rifles, grab bolt rifles and have -2Ap, your tac marines get a boost alongside their special weapons and can put on a bit more pressure.

 

Plus being infantry heavy makes the most of stratagem like self sacrifice which combined with warlord traits and psychic powers could be a little nuts for survivability.

 

Sorry i dont understand what you mean in your 1st sentence.

You do forego benfits. To get the benefits of the salamaders doctrine you have to be in the tacticle doctrine which mean your heavy weapons are not getting the additional -1AP

 

However flamers and melta-guns/multi meltas suck, or rather they suck and so do the few units that you can put them on.

 

Say you take 9 sternguard with combi-flamers and put them in a drop pod with vulkan. That is 54 S4 autohits, with possibly +2 to wound, AP-1 and re-rolling...except its not because you have a 8" range...yay. You could do the same with combi-meltas but you can do a better more flexible job with other units.

 

And what other units can take multi-meltas?

Attack bikes and land speeders?

 

And while flamers have do have more utility, the problem is range, at which point its best to run successor and get the +3" range...but then you are missing out on vulkans re-rolls which is kind of needed. And again, there are more flamer type weapons that are heavy than assault.

Edited October 24, 2019 by jgascoine011

[SoulessGod]

Yes you forego benefits, I said any benefit, or perhaps I should have said forego having any benefit at all.

 

When you come out of devistator doctrine your heavy flamers and multimeltas still have a benefit. The plus 1 to wound, doesn't count for much on meltas but still helpful on units like invictor warsuits with incedium cannons th a t will hopefully still be alive and in range during the tactical doctrine.

 

 

There are a lot of heavy flamer weapons, but these still get the +1 to wound and also already have -1Ap. Now your flamers count as heavy flamers in the tactical doctrine so on units like aggressors and assault centurions you've got more punch.

 

There are more heavy flamers on vehicles, but if you want to make the most of stratagems are you going to take many of those?

 

 

 

If the extra 3 inches of range is better than Vulkan I don't know

[CCE1981]

Yes, the extra 3” of range is better that Vulcan. Though to be honest, despite the preponderance of everything that effects flamers and meltas, it’s everything else that makes Salamanders. Making your Captain/Chapter Master immune to Str3! Moving your bracketed Repulsor/Land Raider as if it weren’t! -1 to hit and +1 toughness! +1 to wound Bolt Rifles!

[SoulessGod]

I think it's possibly a bit of a misstep to focus on the flamer benefits.

 

It lessens the downsides to playing a super fluffy army while also providing excellent stratagem support.

[GrinNfool]

Definitely don't see them as weak or even a weaker chapter.  Ignoring ap-1 is fantastic as well as their reroll a hit and wound stuff.  People kinda are being dismissive of their doctrine, but it lets them get use out of weapons that are on the cheaper side, in the case of flamers which most other chapters avoid using.  A tac squad with flamer/combi flamer can put up some scary numbers depending on what you want to invest... and thats on the low end.  2 cp lets that squad do 5.25 wounds to a russ equivalent, burn 4 instead fo 9 wounds to a russ.  Ya thats expensive on CP, but just having the ABILITY to make a 72 point squad output that level of damage is crazy.  Forces your opponent to deal with squads they might normally ignore.  Thats the scary part of salamanders, even a humble sub 100 point squad can do some real damage to you.  In the case of meltas/multi melta it again takes a weapon most chapters don't bother with and makes it a reasonable choice. 

 

Basically they are can do some crazy stuff with CP, while also benefiting from some nice CT rules, and of course the 1 cp VotLW strat.  Obviously you only have so much CP and can only use the really powerful stuff every so often, but just the threat of being able to do that will will change how your opponent plays, which should open up some chances as Salamanders are flexible.  A flexible chapter that can turn some low point cost units into monsters for a CP bomb, don't see that being bad.  3 aggressors for cp bomb is probably the most obvious look.  Statistically 1 shotting a castellan pretty easily, or just vaping anything dumb enough to get within 16" of your repulsor.  That chance won't be given to you much of often, but having that threat on the table plus any razorback/rhino representing a potentially dead/almost dead russ level threat people have to be VERY cautious of your placements meaning you completely dictate the battle with a little effort.  So the way I see it salamanders can make use of some point savings by bringing "less good" weapons to other chapters, while benefiting from all their REALLY good stratagems, that work both alone for low costs, or for some CP bombs of massive damage if you can get the opportunity, just can't see that being weak whatsoever.

[AnImA8]

Just wanna say: you’re spot on GrinNFool! They really do gotta worry even for our humblest units!

[zero88]

Eh, I'm pretty sure on the TT Salamanders Battle Report they look it up and the MW strat is for a single MODEL. With Max shots and Vulkan rerolls that's 9 MW, not one shotting a Castellan...

[GrinNfool]

Eh, I'm pretty sure on the TT Salamanders Battle Report they look it up and the MW strat is for a single MODEL. With Max shots and Vulkan rerolls that's 9 MW, not one shotting a Castellan...

72x.5 = 36 wounds 4+ save (ap -1) = 18 unsaved plus 12 MWs.....1 aggressor double tapping with flamecraft is 24 shots = 12 MWs.... IE on average 3 aggressors with 4-5 cp do 30 wounds to a knight level enemy.  Half that w/o the double tap, which would mean either you advanced or dont have the CP, in which case you are better off forgoing the +1 w strat and still getting almost 24 wounds on average.  So ya... statistically 1 shots a castellan.... for a heft CP investment granted.  Don't think there is much in this game they wouldn't 1 shot.

Thats using the +1 super doctrine and +2 cp for flame craft and +1 cp for the MW strat on 1 model 1 cp for the stand still strat and probably +1 VotLW type ability, but its optional honestly because you will likely kill it or cripple it enough for the 13 powerfists to finish it off on a charge.

Edited October 24, 2019 by GrinNfool

[SirVulkan]

Lets all just play test some stuff and report back.  :)

[PiñaColada]

Sure, but how many times do you think your opponent is going to leave that aggressor unit within 13" of a Castellan (or basically any knight)? Once maybe, but after that it's easy to at least avoid the double tapping. I think Salamanders have plenty of strong options and combos that I can't wait to try out, but mathing out the unicorn situation where your opponent screwed up enough to leave your unit of aggressors too close to valuable targets when you're still flush with CP is just not a very realistic representation of what you'll be able to do in battle.

[jgascoine011]

Sure, but how many times do you think your opponent is going to leave that aggressor unit within 13" of a Castellan (or basically any knight)? Once maybe, but after that it's easy to at least avoid the double tapping. I think Salamanders have plenty of strong options and combos that I can't wait to try out, but mathing out the unicorn situation where your opponent screwed up enough to leave your unit of aggressors too close to valuable targets when you're still flush with CP is just not a very realistic representation of what you'll be able to do in battle.

 

Exactly.

My main army is deathguard and i play a very fluffy list where i try to get off blight bombardment on a unit of plague marines.

In maybe 20 or 30 games I got it off twice, maybe three times, either against opponents who didnt know about it, or forgot about it.

 

I was thinking about 3 land speeders with dual heavy flamers, but again, the problem is range. A 28" threat range is actually pretty each to counter, especially for turn 1.

 

I have been thinking about why I think the salamanders are a wierd chapter.

I think its because their chapter tactic and doctrine dont really mix. The re-roll hit and wound is great for single shot weapons like stalker bolts or execution squads. But the +1 to wound is great for flamers, which dont really benefit from the re-rolls.

[Galron]

That's the point of having multiple major threats. 3 dual flamer land speeders are cheap and no one is going to want 36 heavy flamer hits. Bur you have Invictors on their other flank, does the opponent want two or three of those slamming into their line with the big flamers and melee. In the middle you have your main force in raiders.repulsors, Impulsors, rhinos, drop pods. Which do they want to stop? A good opponent can of course out deploy or out seize, and a normal opponent should be able to blunt the two  prongs.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Galron

[L30n1d4s]

One sleeper Salamander unit might be the Land Raider Excelsior set up as your Warlord. With +2T it becomes T10 (so Heavy Bolters only wound it on 6+ and Lascannons only wound it on a 5+), you can give it a second WL trait for either an auto hit each shooting phase (good on -3 to hit Eldar flyers with its Lascannons), a 6+++ FNP and 1W healed each turn, or all Flamer Weapons within 6" can reroll their number of shots (great when used with a squad of 10 Sternguard with combi-flamers riding inside the Excelsior). Additionally, it already has 2+ armor, 5++ Invul, and 16 wounds, but with Salamander traits it ignores AP-1, with Salamander "Rise from the Ashes" Strat it can "resurrect" after dying on a 4+, and it can use the Fire Shield Psychic power to gain -1 to hit from enemy shooting attacks.

 

Combat Power wise, it gives everything within 6" rerolls of 1s, just like Captains (which makes for a large radius around a Land Raider-sized chassis), it has 4 Lascannon shots. 4 Grav Cannon shots, 1 Multimelta shot, and 1 H/K Missile shot, all of which benefit from Devastator Doctrine and ignore movement penalties because of PotMS. Additionally, with support from a Chaplain and/or a Rhino Primaris it can be BS2+ (rerollable); add in the Salamander "Crucible of Battle" strat and all those weapons gain +1 to wound (so you can wound Knights on 2+ with your Lascannons); finally, you also get the Salamander free reroll to wound as well, fir even more reliable damage output!

Edited October 24, 2019 by L30n1d4s

[SirVulkan]

One sleeper Salamander unit might be the Land Raider Excelsior set up as your Warlord. With +2T it becomes T10 (so Heavy Bolters only wound it on 6+ and Lascannons only wound it on a 5+), you can give it a second WL trait for either an auto hit each shooting phase (good on -3 to hit Eldar flyers with its Lascannons), a 6+++ FNP and 1W healed each turn, or all Flamer Weapons within 6" can reroll their number of shots (great when used with a squad of 10 Sternguard with combi-flamers riding inside the Excelsior). Additionally, it already has 2+ armor, 5++ Invul, and 16 wounds, but with Salamander traits it ignores AP-1, with Salamander "Rise from the Ashes" Strat it can "resurrect" after dying on a 4+, and it can use the Fire Shield Psychic power to gain -1 to hit from enemy shooting attacks.

 

Combat Power wise, it gives everything within 6" rerolls of 1s, just like Captains (which makes for a large radius around a Land Raider-sized chassis), it has 4 Lascannon shots. 4 Grav Cannon shots, 1 Multimelta shot, and 1 H/K Missile shot, all of which benefit from Devastator Doctrine and ignore movement penalties because of PotMS. Additionally, with support from a Chaplain and/or a Rhino Primaris it can be BS2+ (rerollable); add in the Salamander "Crucible of Battle" strat and all those weapons gain +1 to wound (so you can wound Knights on 2+ with your Lascannons); finally, you also get the Salamander free reroll to wound as well, fir even more reliable damage output!

 

 

Yep that is interesting.  Though not sure if that data slate will end up in the Legends book coming out soon.  At the least you could do a relic proteus.  Really they just need to make land raiders and repulsors cheaper (not the executioner).  For now I am going to do the distraction invictors to see how that plays out.  

[GrinNfool]

Sure, but how many times do you think your opponent is going to leave that aggressor unit within 13" of a Castellan (or basically any knight)? Once maybe, but after that it's easy to at least avoid the double tapping. I think Salamanders have plenty of strong options and combos that I can't wait to try out, but mathing out the unicorn situation where your opponent screwed up enough to leave your unit of aggressors too close to valuable targets when you're still flush with CP is just not a very realistic representation of what you'll be able to do in battle.

That's my point though isn't it.  Just the fact that a 100 point unit represents that threat alters how your opponent plays and positions.  Its like agents of vect, it doesn't matter IF you get it off, the threat that you COULD do it changes what your opponent does.  As I said there are numerous good uses for low cp strats elsewhere given sallies fantastic strategems.  Basically simpy because you have 3 aggressors in your repulsor your opponent is almost forced to cede the middle of the table (or where ever you want) to you.  All that without having to actually spend or do anything is very powerful.  Never underestimate being able to force your opponent give up board control.  A repulsor in the middle of the table w/ 3 aggressors represents a no go anywhere within 16" of the repulsor, which should equate to a roughly 34"-38" diameter circle in the middle of the table.  That quite significant, the mere THREAT of having something like that is enough to give you tons of board control.  If you force a knight list into castle you have already won.  Its why vect is useful, you don't often see it actually get used, because people will go to any lengths to avoid a MUST USE stratagem situation, instead using smaller effects.

Edited October 24, 2019 by GrinNfool

[PiñaColada]

Had aggressors been able to go into a impulsor I'd be way more inclined to believe you. As of right now I disagree due to the fact that footslogging aggressors are simply too slow to ever really threaten the double tap range and aggressors in a repulsor is too juicy of a target. A repulsor is a gunboat and wouldn't be left alone due to all the guns it's packing (especially with a +1 to wound strat) so I don't see it working out really.

I do agree on a more general level that Salamanders have a great potential into making most units scary but doubletapping flamer aggressors is a scenario I don't feel is even worth mentioned in mathhammer. I personally think that 2 squads of 3 aggressors sans transport is the way to go, they're less buffable and slower but they spread out pretty well and as you've alluded to even 3 of them can dish out some damage. 

[SirVulkan]

Id agree, aggressors on foot are doable right now.  You have to protect them for a good 2 rounds before they can be unleashed in your opponents line.  This is of course if you are going up against a gunline force.  Aggressors can also be handy for protecting your back line as well for a counter attack.  

 

If any of you guys get some games in just report back here how it went.  Id like to see some transport battles too with repulsors and LR.  Don' play on tables with little LOS terrain, thats not how the current game plays well.  

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

People's thoughts on land speeders with double heavy flamers with the strtatagems? Thinking two of them could be quite threatening.

[SirVulkan]

People's thoughts on land speeders with double heavy flamers with the strtatagems? Thinking two of them could be quite threatening.

 

They are great really.  Just be aware that the double heavy flamer version of that data slate from the index may end up in Legends, so proxy it for now.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

 

People's thoughts on land speeders with double heavy flamers with the strtatagems? Thinking two of them could be quite threatening.

 

They are great really.  Just be aware that the double heavy flamer version of that data slate from the index may end up in Legends, so proxy it for now.

 

I'd missed they had dropped them from the codex. That is annoying, I have the HH pintle mounted heavy flamers so was planning on swapping them out with the heavy bolters.

I swear how restrictive GW is getting on weapon options is pretty depressing.

[Charlo]

It's only restrictive if you were playing a while ago though.

 

You can't blame them for making the rules line up with the kits! ...Too much ;)

 

However I'm not sure if Legends will stop things like this, unless they do a profile for "Landspeeder with two heavy Flamers", legends is more about older models without a new profile like "Chaplain on bike"

[CCE1981]

A Centurian Devastator Squad armed with Grav-Cannons looks really interesting. With a 24” range you could likely get some good mileage from a Chaplains “Catechism of Fire” and the Stratagem “The Crucible of Battle” add in “Gravitic Amplification” for a mere 2 CPs your wounding vehicles on re-rollable 3’s and re-rolling the damage. This is even better in that not everything needs to go off to get good redults.

[chapter master 454]

One sleeper Salamander unit might be the Land Raider Excelsior set up as your Warlord. With +2T it becomes T10 (so Heavy Bolters only wound it on 6+ and Lascannons only wound it on a 5+), you can give it a second WL trait for either an auto hit each shooting phase (good on -3 to hit Eldar flyers with its Lascannons), a 6+++ FNP and 1W healed each turn, or all Flamer Weapons within 6" can reroll their number of shots (great when used with a squad of 10 Sternguard with combi-flamers riding inside the Excelsior). Additionally, it already has 2+ armor, 5++ Invul, and 16 wounds, but with Salamander traits it ignores AP-1, with Salamander "Rise from the Ashes" Strat it can "resurrect" after dying on a 4+, and it can use the Fire Shield Psychic power to gain -1 to hit from enemy shooting attacks.

 

Combat Power wise, it gives everything within 6" rerolls of 1s, just like Captains (which makes for a large radius around a Land Raider-sized chassis), it has 4 Lascannon shots. 4 Grav Cannon shots, 1 Multimelta shot, and 1 H/K Missile shot, all of which benefit from Devastator Doctrine and ignore movement penalties because of PotMS. Additionally, with support from a Chaplain and/or a Rhino Primaris it can be BS2+ (rerollable); add in the Salamander "Crucible of Battle" strat and all those weapons gain +1 to wound (so you can wound Knights on 2+ with your Lascannons); finally, you also get the Salamander free reroll to wound as well, fir even more reliable damage output!

 

Unfortunately due to GW being a bunch of no-fun nancies, anything that could be fun is no longer allowed as since they don't sell that model outside of warhammer world and it wasn't included in the new space marine codex, it will appear in legends where I wager it will have its character license revoked, points put up because someone in the studio was using to mild effect and since it isn't primaris it thus cannot be left to exist.

 

Otherwise, we could have a T9 Land Raider Excelsior with regeneration and a 6+++.

 

In the meantime, remember that a gravis captain with T7 the salamander cloak is immune to lasguns and anything str3 or less while with just ether the Toughness boost from the salamanders psychic powers or might of heroes, he becomes immune to anything strength 4 or less. 

 

And oh hi Salamander boys. I tend to jump around as needed to find fun things to test and see what is the hot and whats the not. As a list builder, I enjoy finding combos and various what nots.

 

Also...none of you mentioned Assault Centurions with Flamecraft or whatever it is? Thats a lot of flame. I do suppose you lack the Raven Guard discount on delivery.