Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett

[SkimaskMohawk]

Did I miss it in LatD when he changed his armour colour? It was always meant to be a symbolic moment of him taking the emperor's colour of black as he became his champion. Or was it forgotten about.

[DarkChaplain]

So... Loken is

 

confirmed to be a Giraffe now? Eh, Psyker. I mean psyker.

[Fire Golem]

No ones really mentioned it, but need to mention just how awesome Camba Diaz is. He's one of those characters who I wanted so much more info about, purely just for his cool :cussing name, since he was mentioned in Mechanicum. But in Saturnine....boy

 

His last stand and death, not one step back, just that montage of him killing and killing and killing, till he is just left dead and standing, having never taken one step back to where he drew a line with his sword. Was just awesome. Was hoping for more of him, but knew he was done as soon as he went to the Eternity Port. But as far as deaths go. Fantastic.

 

 

So here is a question thats making me nervous as I'll have to paint the guy soon:

 

What color is sigsmunds armour? IIRC in first wall they said it was black

 

Black, with yellow detailing(i presume the shoulderpads) and an ebon tabard.

I really like how the prose breaks down and becomes more and more frenetic through Camba’s last stand. I thought that was really well done.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

So... Loken is

 

confirmed to be a Giraffe now? Eh, Psyker. I mean psyker.

 

I sure hope so.  Though im sure some wont believe it was hinted from early.  Others will continue to keep him buried back on Istvaan III

.  

[m_r_parker]

Well, I largely stayed out of this thread because I wanted to read the book without any spoilers or signposts to plot points, and I think this may be the best of the series so far. It's an incredible feat of work, and my previous concerns around having too many characters was nothing to be worried about at all. 

It's nice to see the traitors not be reduced to cliche, and be both competent and relatable. The only over-the-top performance would be Fulgrim, but I expect that from the Daemon-Primarch of Slannesh. 

 

I do have spoiler-based conversation and discussion, so please use your own judgement before reading the below. It's well worth going through the book without prior knowledge (although it's probably a little late for that now for some people):

Regarding Krole:

I think this may be the first time I've seen a Sister of Silence portrayed in this way; not just as a pariah that makes people uncomfortable, but somehow now invisible to the human eye. I get the prospect that Blanks are hard to look at, in that the effect they have puts people on edge, but so many times this character is seemingly unnoticed by the world around her. Has this been in the background the whole time? Because this feels very new, and slightly shoe-horned in, as something for a plot point later on. Is this something that Krole has, or is it an effect of the entire Silent Sisterhood? Regarding the end of the book:

I understand that not every character can have an illustrious death, to go out fighting against a main antagonist, put her death felt very unfulfilling. To be literally killed by accident, without her killer knowing that she was there or that he had done anything - that fell very flat for me

 

Regarding Dorn and Perturabo:

I like the way that both of these characters have learned traits from each other, and are actively using these abilities against each other. First with Perturabo using Dorn's advice of stepping away from the battle to allow him to decompress and regain focus on what truly matters, to Dorn actively using an Iron Warrior disciple for recognising that some objectives need to fall - but to bleed the enemy whilst they do it, even if some of your own forces are sacrificed along the way. I also enjoyed Perturabo being less petty than in previous iterations of the character, and Dorn coming across as more human than his demeanour would usually allow.

 

Regarding Little Horus:

I honestly thought that for a character that was introduced back in book 1 of the Heresy series, that Little Horus was going to be a lynchpin of the ending of the storyline. His storyline though this novel left him feeling weak and unmotivated, and his death felt very flat. I'm glad Loken managed to get some measure of revenge on his Mournval brother, but the whole thing felt very underwhelming.

 

Regarding Synderman and the Remembrancers:

I liked their re-introduction into the setting as the proto-inquisition. Interrogators with the authority to get stories from anyone, to catalogue the war for future purpose. The interrogation of the bio-chemist with the background on the Emperor was nice to have, and the potential weapon that could be used against Lupercal et al is something I hope we get to see a little further down the line (maybe as a short?)

 

Regarding Zephon:

Considering the scope of his character in Master of Mankind, and the follow-up story recently, I was disappointed we didn't see much of him before his 'death'. I use the term loosely, as I have a feeling he isn't done yet as indicated with the discussion with Land. My own feeling / speculation:

I have a suspicion that this may be the first Sanguinor. A legionary marked as dead so he can assume another identity, a figurehead for the Legion that can never truly be killed. Like a Phoenix Lord, the physical being inhabiting the armour becomes one with the identity / psyche of the piece. And Land does have knowledge of Xeno technology...

 

 

I think this is well-worth a re-read, only to see what I've missed first time round.

[Robbienw]

The Sanguinor has already made appearances in the HH books, there was a short story on his creation, and he appeared again in Ruinstorm.

[Indefragable]

Well, I largely stayed out of this thread because I wanted to read the book without any spoilers or signposts to plot points, and I think this may be the best of the series so far. It's an incredible feat of work, and my previous concerns around having too many characters was nothing to be worried about at all. 

It's nice to see the traitors not be reduced to cliche, and be both competent and relatable. The only over-the-top performance would be Fulgrim, but I expect that from the Daemon-Primarch of Slannesh. 

 

I do have spoiler-based conversation and discussion, so please use your own judgement before reading the below. It's well worth going through the book without prior knowledge (although it's probably a little late for that now for some people):

Regarding Krole:

I think this may be the first time I've seen a Sister of Silence portrayed in this way; not just as a pariah that makes people uncomfortable, but somehow now invisible to the human eye. I get the prospect that Blanks are hard to look at, in that the effect they have puts people on edge, but so many times this character is seemingly unnoticed by the world around her. Has this been in the background the whole time? Because this feels very new, and slightly shoe-horned in, as something for a plot point later on. Is this something that Krole has, or is it an effect of the entire Silent Sisterhood? Regarding the end of the book:

I understand that not every character can have an illustrious death, to go out fighting against a main antagonist, put her death felt very unfulfilling. To be literally killed by accident, without her killer knowing that she was there or that he had done anything - that fell very flat for me

 

Regarding Dorn and Perturabo:

I like the way that both of these characters have learned traits from each other, and are actively using these abilities against each other. First with Perturabo using Dorn's advice of stepping away from the battle to allow him to decompress and regain focus on what truly matters, to Dorn actively using an Iron Warrior disciple for recognising that some objectives need to fall - but to bleed the enemy whilst they do it, even if some of your own forces are sacrificed along the way. I also enjoyed Perturabo being less petty than in previous iterations of the character, and Dorn coming across as more human than his demeanour would usually allow.

 

Regarding Little Horus:

I honestly thought that for a character that was introduced back in book 1 of the Heresy series, that Little Horus was going to be a lynchpin of the ending of the storyline. His storyline though this novel left him feeling weak and unmotivated, and his death felt very flat. I'm glad Loken managed to get some measure of revenge on his Mournval brother, but the whole thing felt very underwhelming.

 

Regarding Synderman and the Remembrancers:

I liked their re-introduction into the setting as the proto-inquisition. Interrogators with the authority to get stories from anyone, to catalogue the war for future purpose. The interrogation of the bio-chemist with the background on the Emperor was nice to have, and the potential weapon that could be used against Lupercal et al is something I hope we get to see a little further down the line (maybe as a short?)

 

Regarding Zephon:

Considering the scope of his character in Master of Mankind, and the follow-up story recently, I was disappointed we didn't see much of him before his 'death'. I use the term loosely, as I have a feeling he isn't done yet as indicated with the discussion with Land. My own feeling / speculation:

I have a suspicion that this may be the first Sanguinor. A legionary marked as dead so he can assume another identity, a figurehead for the Legion that can never truly be killed. Like a Phoenix Lord, the physical being inhabiting the armour becomes one with the identity / psyche of the piece. And Land does have knowledge of Xeno technology...

 

 

I think this is well-worth a re-read, only to see what I've missed first time round.

 

 

The Sanguinor has already made appearances in the HH books, there was a short story on his creation, and he appeared again in Ruinstorm.

 

@m_r_parker : 

 

 

It's almost on-the-nose in Ruinstorm that the Herald of Sanguinius, a Sanguinary Guard who drew lots to become an unnamed stand-in for Sanguinius, becomes the Sanguinor, considering how he acts and how he.....disappears. I can go into details if you like, but will hold off on the chance you have not read that book. 

 

[Marshal Vespasian]

No ones really mentioned it, but need to mention just how awesome Camba Diaz is. He's one of those characters who I wanted so much more info about, purely just for his cool :cussing name, since he was mentioned in Mechanicum. But in Saturnine....boy

 

His last stand and death, not one step back, just that montage of him killing and killing and killing, till he is just left dead and standing, having never taken one step back to where he drew a line with his sword. Was just awesome. Was hoping for more of him, but knew he was done as soon as he went to the Eternity Port. But as far as deaths go. Fantastic.

 

 

 

So here is a question thats making me nervous as I'll have to paint the guy soon:

 

What color is sigsmunds armour? IIRC in first wall they said it was black

Black, with yellow detailing(i presume the shoulderpads) and an ebon tabard.

Cant wait to read about the fists part in this then.

 

Hmm so since my fists are siege of terrs themed I should propably paint him as such. Not gonna do an ebon tabbard tho. Thats too much black for my taste.

[Angel_of_Blood]

 

No ones really mentioned it, but need to mention just how awesome Camba Diaz is. He's one of those characters who I wanted so much more info about, purely just for his cool :cussing name, since he was mentioned in Mechanicum. But in Saturnine....boy

 

His last stand and death, not one step back, just that montage of him killing and killing and killing, till he is just left dead and standing, having never taken one step back to where he drew a line with his sword. Was just awesome. Was hoping for more of him, but knew he was done as soon as he went to the Eternity Port. But as far as deaths go. Fantastic.

 

So here is a question thats making me nervous as I'll have to paint the guy soon:

 

What color is sigsmunds armour? IIRC in first wall they said it was black

Black, with yellow detailing(i presume the shoulderpads) and an ebon tabard.

Cant wait to read about the fists part in this then.

 

 

Diaz has a fairly large parts, as far as can be with the large cast. Fafnir Rann is about the same again, perhaps a touch less than Diaz. Sigismund and Thanes parts are relatively small in the grand scheme of things, but pivotal for all that. Oh and Cadwalder, a Huscarl, also has a proper role.

 

It's my favourite depictions of the Fists since Praetorian of Dorn I'd say, not to say I didn't enjoy them in Solar War, but they weren't PoD level. Dorn himself is also fantastic in it.

[Roomsky]

I'm going to wait for proper release and a re-read for an actual review. Here are some thoughts:

 

1. Listen to StrangerOrders and read the damned book. A large number of complaints in this thread are non-issues in the text.

1b. StrangerOrders, if Lost and the Damned were this long, I don't think I would have survived.

 

2. This book is Abnett on his A-game. A tentative 10/10 from me, I was grinning like an idiot for all 550 pages. Undoubtedly the best of the Siege so far, and the best Heresy book in a very long while. Nearly every concept on display in the series so far has been outdone by Abnett here, from big epic moments to down-in-the-dirt soldiery. Characterization is spot-on throughout the board, and the pacing is superb. I almost want to read it again already.

2b. I really wish Abnett just ignored wordcount like in this chonker with his other works. In this alternate dimension, Mcneill inherit's Abnett's strict adherence to the 400-page count.

 

3. People familiar with Gaunt's Ghosts will recognize his habit of sending characters to their apparent demise only to have them show up later. I'd wait for certain author's entries before taking "off-screen" deaths too seriously. Various other big reveals should probably be viewed in the same light.

 

4. I'm so pleased Loken decapitated Aximand and all the theories surrounding him. The remorseful Aximand existed in a single book, and he immediately became an arrogant prick starting with Little Horus. I'll grant the series should have done more with him, but that is not this book's failing. And hey, he absolutely annihilated Eidolon and Fulgrim with his smarm before dying.

 

5. Olly Piers was great and people shouldn't be surprised he was included. I've seen quite a bit of fury over Persson's Perpetual status, I'm not at all surprised they decided to split the character.

 

6. Read the book, you dingus.

[Angel_of_Blood]

Oh and also regarding the end:

 

So, so hyped to see Corswain back. Savage Weapons, alone made him one of my favourite characters who I was massively disappointed didn’t appear more. So yeah, bring him on!

[b1soul]

Have we seen much of Corswain's personality up to now? I recall that in Savage Weapons, he helps the Lion by stabbing Curze…not much in the way of character development.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Kelborn
spoiler tags added

[Fire Golem]

Oh and also regarding the end:

 

So, so hyped to see Corswain back. Savage Weapons, alone made him one of my favourite characters who I was massively disappointed didn’t appear more. So yeah, bring him on!

 

The hairs on the back of my neck went up reading the last paragraph.

 

I’ve said it before, but Corswain is probably my favourite character that I don’t actually know anything about, really. I can’t wait for the next one to see more of him.

 

@b1soul, we’re just ignoring spoiler tags then?

Edited April 1, 2020 by fire golem

[b1soul]

I am guessing Wraight is up next?

[m_r_parker]

One thing that I was going to add, but forgot before. I'm going to put it in Spoiler tags even though 1) it's not a spoiler, and 2) it's detailing something that hasn't happened yet. There are some supplemental details in there which are more spoiler-y though, so read at your peril. And also please be mindful of other when you reply, and please everyone wash your hands!!!

 

One thing we got drilled into us in this novel was the enmity between the Khan and Mortarion, with both talking up a dislike of the other. I honestly thought we were going to get a Khan / Mortarion fight before the end of this novel. Then Fulgrim shows up on the walls for some fisticuffs with Dorn, and I remembered back to the first mentions of the Siege series at a Horus Heresy Weekender a couple of years ago. As a reveal they mentioned that we would be getting a Khan and Fulgrim fight.

Now by the end of this novel Fulgrim, having been defeated by Dorn and the imperial forces at the wall, remarks that he has gotten bored and is taking his Legion away. Taken at face value, this would mean we don't see any more Fulgrim or Emperors Children for the rest of the Siege. I can't believe the BL authors would have dropped a potential Khan / Fulgrim battle as a reveal if they weren't 100% sure of it coming to pass - so I'm not sure what I should be thinking. Khan versus Mortarion seems like a more fitting duel based on the build up of this novel, and the fact that the III'rd have left the battle, but Khan versus Fulgrim still sits in the back of my mind.

 

Thoughts anyone? 

 

[Robbienw]

In older fluff it was a prominent point about the Emperors Children, that they abandoned the Siege relatively early on and took to attacking and tormenting the civilian populace of Terra for fun.  Presumably the White Scars are going to sally out in an attempt to protect civilians and/or gather imperial forces not at the palace for when they retake Lions Gate Spaceport, and they will encounter the Emperors Children whilst doing this. 

[Angel_of_Blood]

One thing that I was going to add, but forgot before. I'm going to put it in Spoiler tags even though 1) it's not a spoiler, and 2) it's detailing something that hasn't happened yet. There are some supplemental details in there which are more spoiler-y though, so read at your peril. And also please be mindful of other when you reply, and please everyone wash your hands!!!

 

One thing we got drilled into us in this novel was the enmity between the Khan and Mortarion, with both talking up a dislike of the other. I honestly thought we were going to get a Khan / Mortarion fight before the end of this novel. Then Fulgrim shows up on the walls for some fisticuffs with Dorn, and I remembered back to the first mentions of the Siege series at a Horus Heresy Weekender a couple of years ago. As a reveal they mentioned that we would be getting a Khan and Fulgrim fight.

Now by the end of this novel Fulgrim, having been defeated by Dorn and the imperial forces at the wall, remarks that he has gotten bored and is taking his Legion away. Taken at face value, this would mean we don't see any more Fulgrim or Emperors Children for the rest of the Siege. I can't believe the BL authors would have dropped a potential Khan / Fulgrim battle as a reveal if they weren't 100% sure of it coming to pass - so I'm not sure what I should be thinking. Khan versus Mortarion seems like a more fitting duel based on the build up of this novel, and the fact that the III'rd have left the battle, but Khan versus Fulgrim still sits in the back of my mind.

 

Thoughts anyone? 

 

 

I can't say I was ever that invested in the potential duel between them. I mean all we have is Khan dropping that burn we all know and love. I mean I guess we've had a few Emperors Children vs White Scars stand offs, and Eidolon did kill the beloved Qin Xa, but I feel the Mortarion and Death Guard feud is much better and feel more invested in it. A rematch with Mortarion as he is now, with the Khan now much more focused as well, should be epic. 

 

That and in the original lore, it always was the case that Fulgrim abandoned the Siege and went and did....things....to the populace instead. 

 

That being said, don't forget the conversation between Sanguinius, Khan and Dorn.

'My sight is not so clear as father’s’, said Sanguinius. ‘The Future is ever in flux. Only some events…’ He paused, finding the words hard to say. ‘Only some events are certain.’

 

‘Do you see me? What will be the consequences of inaction?’

 

‘I see fire, and blood, and a world laid waste if you do not act.’

 

‘If I act?’ said the Khan.

 

Sanguinius opened his eyes to look at him.

 

‘There is a grave risk to you. A confrontation unlooked for, and if you survive, a flight from one danger into greater peril.’

 

‘Who will I face?’

 

‘I cannot divine.’

 

‘Will I save lives?’

 

Sanguinius nodded. ‘Many.’

 

‘That is what I was made for,’ said the Khan. ‘I will ride out.’

 

 

 

Suggests that the Khan may well go try and protect the population, maybe before or after he retakes the Lions Gate. Perhaps before. Wraights novel is going to be about the Khan retaking Lions Gate, but would be a stretch for the whole novel to be about that, maybe see Khan go fight off Fulgrim and then rally troops from outside to bolster his attack. Though a duel vs Fulgrim and then Mortarion as well might be a bit too much. But he's burning for a rematch against Mortarion, so I can't see him being the 'confrontation unlocked for'.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Angel_of_Blood

[Fedor]

Primarch fights...

 

 

 

I could really do without Khan vs Fulgrim, especially now that we have already had Fulgrim fight Dorn and use a gimmick i had a long held feeling he may in any confrontation with the Khan....that is revert back to his original form for a "fair" and purer swordsman contest between to see who was right in the old great crusade banter days. It just seems like it'll be very hard to pull off now without just feeling like a slight fan service thing with yet another daemon primarch as disposable regenerating foe. We've already had that with Dorn vs Fulgrim and having read the full scene, i thought Dan pulled a difficult task off very well, with the scenario fitting both characters. However we really don't need a coked up Fulgrim half assing things and quiping away yet again before inevitably getting banished.

 

Now Khan vs Mortarion on the other hand has been built up excellently. I even think that could work extremely well as a gut punch surprise death for the Khan, though i doubt they go there.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Fedor

[DarkChaplain]

Chris Wraight has placed a pretty clear reference to the Khan vs Mortarion at the Lion's Gate back in The Carrion Throne, so I'd wager that duel is inevitable. The question is one of when, not if.

 

The two door faces were embossed with beaten ceramite, sculpted into representations of the battles that had taken place. Idealised Angels of Death clashed in bas-relief, their blades glimmering under an accumulated patina of ages. In the very centre, where the immense bosses swelled out, were two greater figures – the Holy Primarch Jaghatai Khan, and a nameless daemonic monster wielding a scythe.

[Indefragable]

 

One thing that I was going to add, but forgot before. I'm going to put it in Spoiler tags even though 1) it's not a spoiler, and 2) it's detailing something that hasn't happened yet. There are some supplemental details in there which are more spoiler-y though, so read at your peril. And also please be mindful of other when you reply, and please everyone wash your hands!!!

 

One thing we got drilled into us in this novel was the enmity between the Khan and Mortarion, with both talking up a dislike of the other. I honestly thought we were going to get a Khan / Mortarion fight before the end of this novel. Then Fulgrim shows up on the walls for some fisticuffs with Dorn, and I remembered back to the first mentions of the Siege series at a Horus Heresy Weekender a couple of years ago. As a reveal they mentioned that we would be getting a Khan and Fulgrim fight.

Now by the end of this novel Fulgrim, having been defeated by Dorn and the imperial forces at the wall, remarks that he has gotten bored and is taking his Legion away. Taken at face value, this would mean we don't see any more Fulgrim or Emperors Children for the rest of the Siege. I can't believe the BL authors would have dropped a potential Khan / Fulgrim battle as a reveal if they weren't 100% sure of it coming to pass - so I'm not sure what I should be thinking. Khan versus Mortarion seems like a more fitting duel based on the build up of this novel, and the fact that the III'rd have left the battle, but Khan versus Fulgrim still sits in the back of my mind.

 

Thoughts anyone? 

 

 

I can't say I was ever that invested in the potential duel between them. I mean all we have is Khan dropping that burn we all know and love. I mean I guess we've had a few Emperors Children vs White Scars stand offs, and Eidolon did kill the beloved Qin Xa, but I feel the Mortarion and Death Guard feud is much better and feel more invested in it. A rematch with Mortarion as he is now, with the Khan now much more focused as well, should be epic. 

 

That and in the original lore, it always was the case that Fulgrim abandoned the Siege and went and did....things....to the populace instead. 

 

That being said, don't forget the conversation between Sanguinius, Khan and Dorn.

'My sight is not so clear as father’s’, said Sanguinius. ‘The Future is ever in flux. Only some events…’ He paused, finding the words hard to say. ‘Only some events are certain.’

 

‘Do you see me? What will be the consequences of inaction?’

 

‘I see fire, and blood, and a world laid waste if you do not act.’

 

‘If I act?’ said the Khan.

 

Sanguinius opened his eyes to look at him.

 

‘There is a grave risk to you. A confrontation unlooked for, and if you survive, a flight from one danger into greater peril.’

 

‘Who will I face?’

 

‘I cannot divine.’

 

‘Will I save lives?’

 

Sanguinius nodded. ‘Many.’

 

‘That is what I was made for,’ said the Khan. ‘I will ride out.’

 

 

 

Suggests that the Khan may well go try and protect the population, maybe before or after he retakes the Lions Gate. Perhaps before. Wraights novel is going to be about the Khan retaking Lions Gate, but would be a stretch for the whole novel to be about that, maybe see Khan go fight off Fulgrim and then rally troops from outside to bolster his attack. Though a duel vs Fulgrim and then Mortarion as well might be a bit too much. But he's burning for a rematch against Mortarion, so I can't see him being the 'confrontation unlocked for'.

 

 

I :cuss -ing love Khan. 

[caladancid]

Wasn't there something in one of the Wraight Scars books that talked about the Khan dying if/when he fought Mortarion? I know that isn't canon, but can't recall what exactly was said.

[Roomsky]

 

Chris Wraight has placed a pretty clear reference to the Khan vs Mortarion at the Lion's Gate back in The Carrion Throne, so I'd wager that duel is inevitable. The question is one of when, not if.

 

The two door faces were embossed with beaten ceramite, sculpted into representations of the battles that had taken place. Idealised Angels of Death clashed in bas-relief, their blades glimmering under an accumulated patina of ages. In the very centre, where the immense bosses swelled out, were two greater figures – the Holy Primarch Jaghatai Khan, and a nameless daemonic monster wielding a scythe.

 

 

I was sort of hoping that would be Wraight playing with history and the two never actually coming to blows again. I'm down for either, though I think there are far more interesting places to take their dynamic than yet another primarch brawl. Otherwise I'd rather see him try Fulgrim.

 

But if they do meet face to face I hope Jaghatai gets thrown into the webway or something.

[StrangerOrders]

I will honestly be pretty happy the more we see 40k history being bs. 

 

Seriously, the idea of 10k years of a gap with an even broadly correct history is more suspension breaking for me than anything else. Moreso when the factions saying it are a theocratic authoritarian state (and quadrupedally so if we go with the neo-feudal version of the Imperium) and a splintered collective of egotists with lying as a rather key part of their religion.

 

That anything resembling accuracy would exist in the telling is mind-numbingly silly to me.

 

The only beings I would trust to keep anything resembling an accurate record would be Trazlyn. Because A. He would not care enough to change it and B. Most of the Necrons are asleep and unavailable to twist the facts to suit an agenda.

 

Least of all because even at his best Sinderman is more or less intellectual dishonesty incarnate. And this is the book where he is trying to be better.

[DarkChaplain]

 

 

Chris Wraight has placed a pretty clear reference to the Khan vs Mortarion at the Lion's Gate back in The Carrion Throne, so I'd wager that duel is inevitable. The question is one of when, not if.

 

The two door faces were embossed with beaten ceramite, sculpted into representations of the battles that had taken place. Idealised Angels of Death clashed in bas-relief, their blades glimmering under an accumulated patina of ages. In the very centre, where the immense bosses swelled out, were two greater figures – the Holy Primarch Jaghatai Khan, and a nameless daemonic monster wielding a scythe.

 

 

I was sort of hoping that would be Wraight playing with history and the two never actually coming to blows again. I'm down for either, though I think there are far more interesting places to take their dynamic than yet another primarch brawl. Otherwise I'd rather see him try Fulgrim.

 

But if they do meet face to face I hope Jaghatai gets thrown into the webway or something.

 

 

I think something pivotal as two Primarchs duelling during the big Siege, after which the Palace would be in for some... remodeling, is precisely the sort of thing that would be captured in art around the location of the battle. Seeing that it even depicts Mortarion with a reasonable degree of accuracy, looking at Manreaper, it makes me think that no historical shenanigans would be afoot here. If they wanted to depict the Khan fighting a daemon Primarch, it might as well have been Fulgrim, or Angron, but the artist chose Mortarion.

 

For me, it's enough to think that present day folks have no idea who Mortarion is anymore, and thus look at the murals in confusion, recognizing only the Khan. That's a figure they've been told time and again to worship, after all, while the enemy Primarchs were pretty much forgotten about. There is no need to additionally make the depiction factually incorrect, especially when it was added to the Lion's Gate back when rebuilding happened, which might have even been under Dorn's supervision before he left Terra. At least I doubt he'd have just taken his Legion and left with the Palace's defenses basically broken, and it may also have been a cathartic experience for him to be rebuilding some of the more vital structures and putting the bling back - remember, he always at least claimed he would be putting everything back the way it was, once the war was over.

 

It's a fairly safe assumption that a lot of those memorial statues and what not were commissioned or produced at least during the time when the Primarchs were still around, and Guilliman took control of the High Lords for a while. Terra was properly rebuilt during the War of the Beast, at the very least.

[b1soul]

I believe a Fulgrim vs. the Khan confrontation has been confirmed by the HH team at a weekender IIRC. I asked this question a while ago to a fellow BC member.

Mortarion vs. the Khan again would be less interesting to me, as we've seen it already and in all likelihood both are going to survive again. So less impact there. Against Fulgrim, if it happens, we get to see how the Khan would handle a full-blown Daemon primarch. I don't think it's going to be a mere duel as the Khan should be a bit more wily than that, i.e. he likely understands the gifts of Daemonhood and that he's probably screwed if he goes 1v1 against that.

Based on BL works like Ashes of Prospero and The Last Hunt, I don't think the Khan is going to fall at the Siege. Might be a possibility, but it would be an unlikely decision IMO...kinda like the idea of Lorgar biting the dust there. Might as well have Dorn die at the Siege as well...gut punches all around /s. In all seriousness, there is no commercial upside to a decision like that...so yeah, GW/BL probably not going to let any primarch be perma-killed at the Siege unless firmly established by the foundational lore.

The Khan's death vision people are referring to is this:

Yesugei paused before speaking again, looking preoccupied. The Khan waited for him.‘I had... dreams,’ Yesugei said, haltingly.
‘Dreams of what?’
‘I saw you fighting. A spectre of the underworld, on a world of ruins.’
‘You saw Mortarion.’
Yesugei looked uneasy. ‘I do not know. In my dreams, you were slain.’
The Khan smiled. ‘Then, it seems, you did not have a true vision.’
‘Perhaps,’ said Yesugei. ‘Or maybe it was of something else. Something yet to come.’
‘Do you still have these dreams?’
‘Not since we arrived at Prospero.’
‘Then your answer is there.’
‘I have not slept since we arrived at Prospero.’
The Khan sighed. ‘My friend, not everything is fated,’ he said, though as the words left his lips he remembered what Magnus had told him. All is known.
‘Not everything,’ admitted Yesugei, ‘but you were always bound up with the warp. All your brothers were. There is a pattern emerging. You have made an enemy of Mortarion, and he will not forget it.’
The Khan grinned rakishly. ‘Others, too. Russ must still be foaming at the mouth. Dorn as well. We are out on our own, distrusted by all, just as always. I find I cannot be truly upset about this.’