Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett

[mc warhammer]

it can be either, right? i don't know if one is more valuable than the other.

 

idk if the timeframe for the work commission is that much of a yardstick to measure accuracy. even today, propaganda and self aggrandisement interfere with cold hard facts on tv, film, documentary, newspapers, etc. social media is doctored. in terms of pure art, trumbull's "the declaration of independence" was painted within the lifetime of the actual declaration and is not considered accurate as far as historians are concerned, but the general public takes it at face value.

 

i wouldn't be surprised if the khan and mortarion do brawl and it's literally depicted in art. i also wouldn't be surprised if they never crossed swords and the image is simply the artist's flowery way of depicting two primarchs on opposing sides. i also wouldn't be surprised if there were more artworks depicting the khan taking on fulgrim, angron, magnus, et al respectively. because that sort of myth building is exactly what would happen as humankind tries to psychologically recover from the heresy. there's probably works depicting ferrus dying there at the siege.

 

in the dark millennium guilliman may be doing his best to remove any and all artwork depicting him standing on top of a mountain of slain chaos primarchs in front of the palace walls.

 

i think that's one of the coolest things about this setting

Edited April 2, 2020 by mc warhammer

[Indefragable]

@StrangerOrders I do not disagree with you, but I think that ship has sailed. Especially with Guilliman having returned in40k and more or less  same person....that’s what we were gonna get.

 

i mean, it would have been neat to have had Russ be a St. Bernard, Sanguinius have been an imaginary friend and a Horus just be an imperial army commander who is one helluva leader able to convince half the imperium to turn rogue, and the Emperor is actually all too human whose “secret project” down in the “Imperial Dungeon” was in fact an all too human distraction. “It’s good to be the king...” ;) 

 

...and then after 10,000 years it’s become these Greek gods each representing some virtue or vice and Horus is made out to be corrupted by unfathomable power because the idea of a mortal general almost conquering back the entire Imperium is far too dangerous an idea to get out to the masses.

 

 

.....but no, GW/FW/BL went a different route and we already have what we have so I don’t see the harm in the literal take on things continuing. Besides, the core truths of momentous events tend to stick around and even their most embellished retellings have the core premise right. 

[Petitioner's City]

@StrangerOrders I do not disagree with you, but I think that ship has sailed. Especially with Guilliman having returned in40k and more or less same person....that’s what we were gonna get.

 

i mean, it would have been neat to have had Russ be a St. Bernard, Sanguinius have been an imaginary friend and a Horus just be an imperial army commander who is one helluva leader able to convince half the imperium to turn rogue, and the Emperor is actually all too human whose “secret project” down in the “Imperial Dungeon” was in fact an all too human distraction. “It’s good to be the king...” ;)

 

...and then after 10,000 years it’s become these Greek gods each representing some virtue or vice and Horus is made out to be corrupted by unfathomable power because the idea of a mortal general almost conquering back the entire Imperium is far too dangerous an idea to get out to the masses.

 

 

.....but no, GW/FW/BL went a different route and we already have what we have so I don’t see the harm in the literal take on things continuing. Besides, the core truths of momentous events tend to stick around and even their most embellished retellings have the core premise right.

A wonderful idea! A shame there wasn't more of this ;)

[Volt]

Could somebody please smack Dan over the head and remind him that no Dark Angels at all were present for the Siege of Terra, which is army book lore going back over two decades and even in the modern codex? Who the hell let that slip on the editing floor?

[Roomsky]

Could somebody please smack Dan over the head and remind him that no Dark Angels at all were present for the Siege of Terra, which is army book lore going back over two decades and even in the modern codex? Who the hell let that slip on the editing floor?

 

Presumably everyone at the meetings and the editors, as a single author would not be able to slip something that important in to their finished product like it was nothing.

 

The lore is changing, as it has been since the novel series began. It doesn't seem especially out of the ordinary at this point, IMO.

[DarkChaplain]

Not really a fan of the premise of that change and its ramifications, truth be told, especially since it has some implications for one of the Siege prequel novellas and a Primarchs novel, but whether it will end up a boon for the Siege series or a cursed retcon remains to be seen in the following books; it's one of those elements that one author sets up for the next to follow up on, like Gav ending The First Wall with John Grammaticus so Dan could take up the baton running.

 

It could be a terrible addition, or it could fall into place neatly. We'll have to see what the next author in line does with it.

It does seem strange, though. Corswain has been fighting the Death Guard under Typhon for a while (something that Buried Dagger ignored entirely), but had sent a delegation to Caliban to resupply and pick up new Legionaries. His envoy got rejected, and worse, Luther and co went into full defiance of the Lion, as their hands were forced by Merir Astelan's manipulation and Zahariel's warped influences.

 

You'd *think* that Corswain would either have led his part of the Legion back to rendezvous with the Lion's remaining (and diminished) retribution fleet, or, more immediately, head to Caliban to clear up what's happened with his delegation to Sar Luthor, steward of Caliban. Either he knows things went badly and gave up on reinforcements without even going to check in person, or he knows nothing about it but rushed for Terra, where he can't expect reinforcements to reach him. It also makes limited sense for Corswain to be able to reach Terra when Guilliman cannot manage it, and the Lion won't, despite having access to Tuchulcha.

 

So Corswain and his part of the First are a really weird element, to me. They had other plotlines worth pursuing that now seem dropped. The most likely explanation of why they'd head to Terra would be that they'd expect the Lion to be there already, as they had been unable to get in touch. But then they'll either have to stick around in a system dominated by the Traitor Legions and corsair scum, or leave again, which will leave a real bad impression far worse than admitting that part of their Legion turned on the Imperium (without even taking direct action within the Heresy War, only supporting Calas Typhon's resupply efforts a bit).

 

As much as I appreciate attempts to give most/all Legions a moment in the sun during the Siege, I'm not sure what the point is gonna be, and how it'll affect things going forward. I'm curious, obviously, but also a bit antsy about it. Especially when a novella dealing with the Dark Angels on Caliban / Corswain's efforts (to contrast with Dreadwing) might have been an easy thing to put out, especially if they'd also do one for the Wolves and Raven Guard post-Yarant.

 

So I guess my confusion is less with them putting Dark Angels in there at all, but why they chose this way to go about it, when there was at least a bit of setup for other avenues already. Hopefully the story they'll tell about Corswain and his motley crew will be convincing enough to not make me regret that other opportunities weren't pursued instead.

[Volt]

 

Could somebody please smack Dan over the head and remind him that no Dark Angels at all were present for the Siege of Terra, which is army book lore going back over two decades and even in the modern codex? Who the hell let that slip on the editing floor?

 

Presumably everyone at the meetings and the editors, as a single author would not be able to slip something that important in to their finished product like it was nothing.

 

The lore is changing, as it has been since the novel series began. It doesn't seem especially out of the ordinary at this point, IMO.

 

There's changing, and then there's throwing random M. Night Shyamalan style twists like a hack that overturns decades of army book lore for no other reason than to weigh down the series with even more needless "changes" that serve to add nothing to the thematic arc of the Horus Heresy. Or even worse, completely erode it.

What does the Dark Angels being present at the battle of Terra actually add to the literary quality of the Siege series, other than to completely screw with continuity and ruin the entire backstory of the First Legion?

[Fedor]

They could have used the main Iron Hands force for an unexpected appearance as they are essentially doing the old Dark Angels sit it out thing right now. There's a few ways you could take their current situation and have them as interesting subplot players lurking around. Maybe not even as full loyalists.

 

Then again if they gave them any space it would probably end up with "not more shattered legions crap" takes all over the place.

 

Sevatar is with the Lion's fleet isn't he? that was who came to mind at first with this revelation.

[Roomsky]

Hey, if they all die then the First's Terra issues remain.

 

If I remember correctly, Corswain is in charge of a splinter fleet. Sev is on board the Invincible Reason, and I doubt the Lion himself is going to arrive on time.

 

 

[Volt]

 

Hey, if they all die then the First's Terra issues remain.

 

If I remember correctly, Corswain is in charge of a splinter fleet. Sev is on board the Invincible Reason, and I doubt the Lion himself is going to arrive on time.

 

 

 

They

don't die, that's the problem. Corswain was on Caliban for the battle with Luther.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Volt

[Roomsky]

 

They

don't die, that's the problem. Corswain was on Caliban for the battle with Luther.

 

 

 

Ah, touche. I had sort of assumed it happened so they could have more people to kill / there'll probably be very few of them. I'll be honest it doesn't bother me as the big boi himself won't be showing on time, but I can see the frustration.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Roomsky

[Marshal Rohr]

The Dark Angels won’t participate in the siege, they’ll be fighting their way to Terra to add pressure to the traitors

[Fire Golem]

The Dark Angels won’t participate in the siege, they’ll be fighting their way to Terra to add pressure to the traitors

 

Corswain and some Dark Angels turn up at Terra at the end of Saturnine. So looks like some will at least.

[Marshal Loss]

 

The Dark Angels won’t participate in the siege, they’ll be fighting their way to Terra to add pressure to the traitors

 

Corswain and some Dark Angels turn up at Terra at the end of Saturnine. So looks like some will at least.

 

Rohr's point is that

 

There's a major difference between entering the system and successfully landing on Terra when the Traitors control the space around the throneworld. It may well be that Corswain and his boys just link up with Su-Kassen and play a role in pressuring the Traitors throughout the last few books, the cumulative pressure of which (Terran fleet + Smurfs & friends) prompts Horus to force a confrontation with the Emperor.

 

edit: repeated word

Edited April 5, 2020 by Marshal Loss

[Marshal Rohr]

Exactly. All the thing the traitors had to do to get to Terra took six weeks (including their sneaky warp route with the comet) with an enormous fleet, hundreds of thousands of legionaries, thousands of ships, and close coordination. Corswain has a fraction of a fraction of that. There’s no reason to expect them to put boots on the ground. They’d get swatted out of the sky trying.

[Fire Golem]

Gotcha. 

[b1soul]

Couldn't wait and finally got my hands on a copy. Definitely a plot-driven (rather than character-driven) novel...and I don't mean that in a bad way. A good yarn doesn't always have to be character-driven. Know No Fear is a case in point.

 

Please bear in mind that I'm probably missing some context as I haven't read The Lost and the Damned or The First Wall. Here is my breakdown and some of my thoughts... 

 

Main Plot Set-Up: 

At this stage in the Siege, Dorn, Valdor, and Malcador (but mainly Dorn) must decide how to address four critical stress points around the Imperial Palace, namely: 

• Colossi Gate 
• Gorgon Bar (not a dive bar, but IIRC the remnant of a gate or some such) 
• Eternity Wall Spaceport 
• Saturnine Wall

If any fall, it spells really bad news for the Loyalists. What's more, the Loyalists only have resources to hold three of these four stress points. One of them cannot be held.

 

The first three of these are well-known to everyone. No secrets there.

However, the fourth, i.e. the Saturnine Wall, is less obvious as it only became a weakness quite recently due to crustal cracks appearing beneath the wall itself (caused by the Perturabo's apocalyptic shelling of the Palace). These cracks would allow a subterranean route into the Palace's inner sanctum via drill-equipped troop transports. Perturabo and Dorn are not sure whether the other is aware of the Saturnine weakness.

 

Perturabo allows Abaddon to take three companies of the SoH finest via the subterranean route in an operation I would characterise as a cross between a speartip assault and an infiltration. 

 

Dorn on the other hand decides to let the Eternity Wall Spaceport fall (the option least damaging to the Loyalist cause) in order to hold the other three stress points. He pretends he's oblivious to the Saturnine weakness and makes a show of committing resources to hold the Eternity Wall Spaceport.  

• The Khan and Valdor are tasked to hold the Colossi against the DG (who are helped by TSon sorcerers) 
• Sanguinius is tasked to hold the Gorgon Bar against mass IW forces
• A high-ranking Army general (shadowed by Dorn's Huscarl Cadwalder) is tasked to hold the Eternity Wall Spaceport against feral WE hordes (Camba Diaz and Shiban were previously running the defence of the Spaceport, and remain to assist) 
• Dorn assembles killteams (including Garro, Endryd Harr, and Loken) to ambush the strikeforce he believes will try to exploit the cracks beneath the Saturnine Wall. Land is tasked with sealing the cracks (with "Lockcrete") after the strikeforce enters.  

The idea is that Perturabo and Abaddon don't know whether an attempted incursion will be running into a Loyalist trap, and Dorn isn't certain whether an enemy strikeforce will even show up. To each side, it's a calculated throw of the dice. 

 

Side-Threads: 

• Sindermann - Dorn authorises Sindermann to reconstitute (in a manner) the Remembrancers. They are now an order of interrogators who will extract accounts from the defenders and record them as history, signifying that the Imperium has a future to look forward to after the Siege. Sindermann ends up at Saturnine.  
• Keeler - Sindermann tries to recruit Keeler but she can't leave her prison facility. Amon lets her interrogates fellow prisoners, including one Basilio Fo.
• Hari - Hari, a young male Remembrancer, meets a trooper called Ollie Piers and they join the defenders of the Eternity Wall Spaceport after their convoy is destroyed. Meet some other ragtag troopers, Joseph and Willem, at Eternity and a legend is born.   
• Zephon - A female Remembrancer (whose name I forget) goes to Gorgon Bar IIRC and meets Zephon, who dies shielding her from an explosion. His body ends up with Land.   
• John Grammaticus/Erda - I believe this thread has already been thoroughly discussed
• Abaddon - Everyone's favorite SoH obtains Perturabo's consent to the subterranean mission and also brings Eidolon, Fulgrim, and, with them, almost the entire IIIrd Legion onboard as a surface assault force to strike simultaneously with Abaddon's subterranean force against Saturnine
• Jenetia Krole - She goes to Eternity with Prefect Tsumomu of the Custodes. Her arc intersects rather nicely with that of Hari and Ollie

 

What I liked:

Generally well-written, high-octane action packed into these pages. Some might say a bit too much, but always enjoyable to read and it never dragged. A solid page-turner. Snappy, punchy dialogue...just trademark Abnett in this area. His marines, and soldiers in general, tend to have a (non-snarky) sense of humour, which I like (brings me back to the vibe of Horus Rising and Legion.) His Army personnel sound like real people stuck in a nightmarish meat-grinder and there is appropriate swearing. Oh yes, I rather liked Jenetia's last stand, and her contribution to the Imperial faith among the common troopers was rather poignant IMO. I do think her special ability was unique to her. It's plausible as her null field is probably freakishly strong.    

 

What I didn't like: 

• Almost too much going on - If you've gotten this far through my post, you'll probably note that there's quite a lot going on in the novel...to the point that reading my summary above would likely benefit someone who is starting Saturnine. There are four stress points and it feels like the novel is constantly jumping from point to point to point to point. Colossi (Khan), Gorgon (Sanguinius), and Eternity (Army general, Cadwalder, Diaz, Shiban) started to blur into each other. I had to keep reminding myself who is where fighting whom. Only Saturnine really stood out to me as unique. 
• Numbers - The numbers thrown around gave me the sense that the Siege of Terra was numerically smaller than the Siege of Stalingrad. Hundreds dying is somehow treated as significant. It felt like there were several hundred (or a few thousand at most) defenders at each stress point.
• Zephon's Death - He literally shows up on-page and dies immediately after. A bit underwhelming. Perhaps a chapter or two before he gets offed (would've packed more of a punch)? 
• Abaddon's saved again - His magi teleport him away right before Garro is about to execute him. This is very similar to how Layak saves him right before he's about to be vapourised in Solar War. I understand Abaddon is marked by dark fates, but personally, I think fewer brushes with death would make each incident more impactful. This time, Garros is left screaming "Nooo" at the space where Abaddon was...and it just struck me as a bit unintentionally funny.  
• Sanguinius' visions - It's crunch-time on Terra and everyone's favourite flying primarch is still being debilitated by his visions. I'm the guy who wants to see "Sanguinius Unleashed" at the Siege, an Angel of Wrath smiting Traitors so hard that we begin to believe he might have a chance of besting Daemon Angron. I would have preferred for this visions to have empowered him and taken him along a darker, Blacker path at this time, not creating an emotional connection through which his traitor brothers' emotions overwhelm him. I would dearly like Sanguinius to be stop being so (for lack of a better word) emo.    
• Agathe - I found this Army officer character at Colossi to be exceptionally annoying (this may or may not have been intentional on Abnett's part)  
• Bel Sepatus - This Blood Angel character could have benefited from a wee bit of character set-up. Felt like a faceless BA captain created specifically to get the chop by Abaddon. 

 

Questions/Issues: 

• Did Abaddon really think he could decapitate the Imperial defence with three SoH companies (the 1st, 18th, and 25th)? Even assuming the subterranean chambers under Saturnine were not turned into deathtraps. What's he going to do with three hundred marines? As far as I know, once he breaches the inner sanctum, he'd have to face the remaining Custodes on top of other Imperial defenders. Why would three hundred SoH be a game-changing factor here? Seems a bit overconfident, actually...a tad insane.  
• The Loyalist killteams dispatched to eliminate the subterranean incursion don't seem to be properly equipped. Not that many Terminators or heavy weapons. If I were Dorn, I would have armed these killteams to the absolute teeth.  
• The Saturnine gambit involves a few hundred marines vs. a few hundred marines. It's hard for me to believe that diverting a few hundred Loyalist marines from the other three stress points would materially affect the Loyalists' ability to hold them. Rather, I think the Imperium simply could not hold Colossi, Gorgon, and Eternity, even if no killteams went to Saturnine. The Imperium was able to hold Colossi, Gorgon, and Saturnine, because Saturnine was a smaller-scale affair and thus much easier to defend. 
• Fulgrim magically removes himself from the surface assault on the Saturnine Wall after easily regenerating from Dorn's blows. He does so because he doesn't like pain right now. This results in Dorn and Sigismund (who were originally going to partake in the subterranean ambush but went to the surface to face Fulgrm) slaughtering dozens of EC elite and Eidolon taking a 1100m dive off the wall. Somehow, eighteen thousand EC die in the surface assault. This just seems a bit too deus ex machina, especially Fulgrim's decision to take off.   
• At Eternity, the Army general and his second don't like Shiban because of how Jaghatai treated them earlier. I understand tempers are frayed and everyone is under pressure, but this struck me as rather peculiar. Shiban is obviously not Jaghatai and it was strange to me how they transferred their enmity to Shiban (probably one of the nicest marines you'd ever meet). 
• I feel like it may have been more powerful to have Aximand suffer Lev Goshen's fate. As it was written, a bit surprised Aximand didn't kill Land. 

 

Score: 7.8 (Still a very entertaining ride but not quite as spectacular as I had hoped) 

[Roomsky]

Couldn't wait and finally got my hands on a copy. Definitely a plot-driven (rather than character-driven) novel...and I don't mean that in a bad way. A good yarn doesn't always have to be character-driven. Know No Fear is a case in point.

 

Please bear in mind that I'm probably missing some context as I haven't read The Lost and the Damned or The First Wall. Here is my breakdown and some of my thoughts... 

 

Main Plot Set-Up: 

At this stage in the Siege, Dorn, Valdor, and Malcador (but mainly Dorn) must decide how to address four critical stress points around the Imperial Palace, namely: 

• Colossi Gate 
• Gorgon Bar (not a dive bar, but IIRC the remnant of a gate or some such) 
• Eternity Wall Spaceport 
• Saturnine Wall

If any fall, it spells really bad news for the Loyalists. What's more, the Loyalists only have resources to hold three of these four stress points. One of them cannot be held.

 

The first three of these are well-known to everyone. No secrets there.

However, the fourth, i.e. the Saturnine Wall, is less obvious as it only became a weakness quite recently due to crustal cracks appearing beneath the wall itself (caused by the Perturabo's apocalyptic shelling of the Palace). These cracks would allow a subterranean route into the Palace's inner sanctum via drill-equipped troop transports. Perturabo and Dorn are not sure whether the other is aware of the Saturnine weakness.

 

Perturabo allows Abaddon to take three companies of the SoH finest via the subterranean route in an operation I would characterise as a cross between a speartip assault and an infiltration. 

 

Dorn on the other hand decides to let the Eternity Wall Spaceport fall (the option least damaging to the Loyalist cause) in order to hold the other three stress points. He pretends he's oblivious to the Saturnine weakness and makes a show of committing resources to hold the Eternity Wall Spaceport.  

• The Khan and Valdor are tasked to hold the Colossi against the DG (who are helped by TSon sorcerers) 
• Sanguinius is tasked to hold the Gorgon Bar against mass IW forces
• A high-ranking Army general (shadowed by Dorn's Huscarl Cadwalder) is tasked to hold the Eternity Wall Spaceport against feral WE hordes (Camba Diaz and Shiban were previously running the defence of the Spaceport, and remain to assist) 
• Dorn assembles killteams (including Garro, Endryd Harr, and Loken) to ambush the strikeforce he believes will try to exploit the cracks beneath the Saturnine Wall. Land is tasked with sealing the cracks (with "Lockcrete") after the strikeforce enters.  

The idea is that Perturabo and Abaddon don't know whether an attempted incursion will be running into a Loyalist trap, and Dorn isn't certain whether an enemy strikeforce will even show up. To each side, it's a calculated throw of the dice. 

 

Side-Threads: 

• Sindermann - Dorn authorises Sindermann to reconstitute (in a manner) the Remembrancers. They are now an order of interrogators who will extract accounts from the defenders and record them as history, signifying that the Imperium has a future to look forward to after the Siege. Sindermann ends up at Saturnine.  
• Keeler - Sindermann tries to recruit Keeler but she can't leave her prison facility. Amon lets her interrogates fellow prisoners, including one Basilio Fo.
• Hari - Hari, a young male Remembrancer, meets a trooper called Ollie Piers and they join the defenders of the Eternity Wall Spaceport after their convoy is destroyed. Meet some other ragtag troopers, Joseph and Willem, at Eternity and a legend is born.   
• Zephon - A female Remembrancer (whose name I forget) goes to Gorgon Bar IIRC and meets Zephon, who dies shielding her from an explosion. His body ends up with Land.   
• John Grammaticus/Erda - I believe this thread has already been thoroughly discussed
• Abaddon - Everyone's favorite SoH obtains Perturabo's consent to the subterranean mission and also brings Eidolon, Fulgrim, and, with them, almost the entire IIIrd Legion onboard as a surface assault force to strike simultaneously with Abaddon's subterranean force against Saturnine
• Jenetia Krole - She goes to Eternity with Prefect Tsumomu of the Custodes. Her arc intersects rather nicely with that of Hari and Ollie

 

What I liked:

Generally well-written, high-octane action packed into these pages. Some might say a bit too much, but always enjoyable to read and it never dragged. A solid page-turner. Snappy, punchy dialogue...just trademark Abnett in this area. His marines, and soldiers in general, tend to have a (non-snarky) sense of humour, which I like (brings me back to the vibe of Horus Rising and Legion.) His Army personnel sound like real people stuck in a nightmarish meat-grinder and there is appropriate swearing. Oh yes, I rather liked Jenetia's last stand, and her contribution to the Imperial faith among the common troopers was rather poignant IMO. I do think her special ability was unique to her. It's plausible as her null field is probably freakishly strong.    

 

What I didn't like: 

• Almost too much going on - If you've gotten this far through my post, you'll probably note that there's quite a lot going on in the novel...to the point that reading my summary above would likely benefit someone who is starting Saturnine. There are four stress points and it feels like the novel is constantly jumping from point to point to point to point. Colossi (Khan), Gorgon (Sanguinius), and Eternity (Army general, Cadwalder, Diaz, Shiban) started to blur into each other. I had to keep reminding myself who is where fighting whom. Only Saturnine really stood out to me as unique. 
• Numbers - The numbers thrown around gave me the sense that the Siege of Terra was numerically smaller than the Siege of Stalingrad. Hundreds dying is somehow treated as significant. It felt like there were several hundred (or a few thousand at most) defenders at each stress point.
• Zephon's Death - He literally shows up on-page and dies immediately after. A bit underwhelming. Perhaps a chapter or two before he gets offed (would've packed more of a punch)? 
• Abaddon's saved again - His magi teleport him away right before Garro is about to execute him. This is very similar to how Layak saves him right before he's about to be vapourised in Solar War. I understand Abaddon is marked by dark fates, but personally, I think fewer brushes with death would make each incident more impactful. This time, Garros is left screaming "Nooo" at the space where Abaddon was...and it just struck me as a bit unintentionally funny.  
• Sanguinius' visions - It's crunch-time on Terra and everyone's favourite flying primarch is still being debilitated by his visions. I'm the guy who wants to see "Sanguinius Unleashed" at the Siege, an Angel of Wrath smiting Traitors so hard that we begin to believe he might have a chance of besting Daemon Angron. I would have preferred for this visions to have empowered him and taken him along a darker, Blacker path at this time, not creating an emotional connection through which his traitor brothers' emotions overwhelm him. I would dearly like Sanguinius to be stop being so (for lack of a better word) emo.    
• Agathe - I found this Army officer character at Colossi to be exceptionally annoying (this may or may not have been intentional on Abnett's part)  
• Bel Sepatus - This Blood Angel character could have benefited from a wee bit of character set-up. Felt like a faceless BA captain created specifically to get the chop by Abaddon. 

 

Questions/Issues: 

• Did Abaddon really think he could decapitate the Imperial defence with three SoH companies (the 1st, 18th, and 25th)? Even assuming the subterranean chambers under Saturnine were not turned into deathtraps. What's he going to do with three hundred marines? As far as I know, once he breaches the inner sanctum, he'd have to face the remaining Custodes on top of other Imperial defenders. Why would three hundred SoH be a game-changing factor here? Seems a bit overconfident, actually...a tad insane.  
• The Loyalist killteams dispatched to eliminate the subterranean incursion don't seem to be properly equipped. Not that many Terminators or heavy weapons. If I were Dorn, I would have armed these killteams to the absolute teeth.  
• The Saturnine gambit involves a few hundred marines vs. a few hundred marines. It's hard for me to believe that diverting a few hundred Loyalist marines from the other three stress points would materially affect the Loyalists' ability to hold them. Rather, I think the Imperium simply could not hold Colossi, Gorgon, and Eternity, even if no killteams went to Saturnine. The Imperium was able to hold Colossi, Gorgon, and Saturnine, because Saturnine was a smaller-scale affair and thus much easier to defend. 
• Fulgrim magically removes himself from the surface assault on the Saturnine Wall after easily regenerating from Dorn's blows. He does so because he doesn't like pain right now. This results in Dorn and Sigismund (who were originally going to partake in the subterranean ambush but went to the surface to face Fulgrm) slaughtering dozens of EC elite and Eidolon taking a 1100m dive off the wall. Somehow, eighteen thousand EC die in the surface assault. This just seems a bit too deus ex machina, especially Fulgrim's decision to take off.   
• At Eternity, the Army general and his second don't like Shiban because of how Jaghatai treated them earlier. I understand tempers are frayed and everyone is under pressure, but this struck me as rather peculiar. Shiban is obviously not Jaghatai and it was strange to me how they transferred their enmity to Shiban (probably one of the nicest marines you'd ever meet). 
• I feel like it may have been more powerful to have Aximand suffer Lev Goshen's fate. As it was written, a bit surprised Aximand didn't kill Land. 

 

Score: 7.8 (Still a very entertaining ride but not quite as spectacular as I had hoped) 

 

I'm surprised you found it so plot-driven, I thought it was exceptionally pushed forward by character, especially in the segments surrounding Krole and the army. 

 

I think at this point we have to acknowledge that Sangy as we see him is how he's going to be. I certainly found him likable here, he's quite proactive despite his situation.

[Indefragable]

I started getting mad at b1soul for not having read the previous two books before Saturnine and having the gall to comment on it....and then I remembered the whole "drive for canonicity can be toxic" debate on these very forums...and laughed at myself for being such a jerk. Is not the attitude of "my experience/way of approaching a hobby is the RIGHT WAY" one of the very problems that can lead to such bull - :cuss on the inter webs? I must be getting old. You damn kids and your loud Noise Marines...

 

++++++++

 

About the topic being discussed in Spoilers

 

It does raise an eyebrow that a Dark Angels element would show up at this point in the story, but I think it's not the biggest deal from a canon (looks at the other thread again) perspective. 

 

Whenever I hear about a detail that I think doesn't make sense or could upset the fabric of the Story, I stop, take a deep breath, and let my mind wander on how it could actually work out. 

 

In this case, there are a few scenarios where I think it could work out:

 

A. Corswain and co. show up and start putting pressure on the Traitor flank. It accomplishes little more than to divert resources. However, the very act of itself is just the sort reminder both sides need that eventually the full Dark Angels, Spaces Wolves, and Ultramarines fleets will arrive and worst divert even more resources...resources that are ever more preciously needed for that last push to take the palace. This leads to Horus' gambit.

 

B. Corswain and co show up and it's basically the Rohirrim in Return of the King: and epic flanking maneuver that provides the breath the loyalists need, but turns out to be in vain as it ultimately just highlights the true might of the Traitor forces (War Elephants, in SPAAAAAAAAAAAAACE!)

 

C. It's a ploy. 

 

 

I've said it before and will continue to say it until my words are carved in stone, wrapped around my neck, and used to drown me: it's not what you do in a story, but how you do it that matters. 

[Volt]

 

 

The Dark Angels won’t participate in the siege, they’ll be fighting their way to Terra to add pressure to the traitors

 

Corswain and some Dark Angels turn up at Terra at the end of Saturnine. So looks like some will at least.

 

Rohr's point is that

 

There's a major difference between entering the system and successfully landing on Terra when the Traitors control the space around the throneworld. It may well be that Corswain and his boys just link up with Su-Kassen and play a role in pressuring the Traitors throughout the last few books, the cumulative pressure of which (Terran fleet + Smurfs & friends) prompts Horus to force a confrontation with the Emperor.

 

edit: repeated word

 

Except people would still know that the Dark Angels participated in the Siege of Terra by virtue of First Legion ships flying First Legion heraldry scooting around the system in a naval war. And the Dark Angels themselves would know they fought in the Terran campaign.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Volt

[Lord_Caerolion]

At the risk of mentioning that meme, perhaps this could be the source of the whole "The Dark Angels waited to see who would win before taking part"?

 

"We have arrived! Wait... their fleet is how big? Ok, we're not gonna do anything if we make a move now, let's just... let's just wait for reinforcements, shall we?"

[Marshal Loss]

 

 

 

The Dark Angels won’t participate in the siege, they’ll be fighting their way to Terra to add pressure to the traitors

 

Corswain and some Dark Angels turn up at Terra at the end of Saturnine. So looks like some will at least.

 

Rohr's point is that

 

There's a major difference between entering the system and successfully landing on Terra when the Traitors control the space around the throneworld. It may well be that Corswain and his boys just link up with Su-Kassen and play a role in pressuring the Traitors throughout the last few books, the cumulative pressure of which (Terran fleet + Smurfs & friends) prompts Horus to force a confrontation with the Emperor.

 

edit: repeated word

 

Except people would still know that the Dark Angels participated in the Siege of Terra by virtue of First Legion ships flying First Legion heraldry scooting around the system in a naval war. And the Dark Angels themselves would know they fought in the Terran campaign.

 

No, not necessarily. Warhammer 40k isn't exactly a setting built on the premise of perfect recall - quite the opposite. Perhaps the situation is roughly analogous to Thermopylae (e.g. people only remember the 300 Spartans, not their allies), and history has chosen to revolve around only those Legions who stood in their entirety with the Emperor on Terra's surface. Perhaps the Dark Angels, in their shame at not having made it there in time to have had a decisive impact, choose to omit their own role in the battle for the Solar system, or to cover for their own Primarch's absence. Perhaps the information is simply lost over the course of 10,000 years due to internal politicking or a myriad of potential other factors. Perhaps records were never adequately made of all of the ships that fought in Solar War because the Imperials are forced to pursue the Traitors immediately after their withdrawal from Terra's surface, and the numbers of Dark Angel ships were so small relative to the greater whole that they were categorized by Imperial scholars as a minor tale not worth telling in their recounting of the Siege of Terra.

 

Long story short, there is plenty of room for the Dark Angels to play some kind of role in the Solar campaign.

 

 

At the risk of mentioning that meme, perhaps this could be the source of the whole "The Dark Angels waited to see who would win before taking part"?

 

"We have arrived! Wait... their fleet is how big? Ok, we're not gonna do anything if we make a move now, let's just... let's just wait for reinforcements, shall we?"

 

This is actually a really good take!

Edited April 6, 2020 by Marshal Loss

[mc warhammer]

Couldn't wait and finally got my hands on a copy. Definitely a plot-driven (rather than character-driven) novel...and I don't mean that in a bad way. A good yarn doesn't always have to be character-driven. Know No Fear is a case in point.

 

Please bear in mind that I'm probably missing some context as I haven't read The Lost and the Damned or The First Wall. Here is my breakdown and some of my thoughts... 

 

Main Plot Set-Up: 

At this stage in the Siege, Dorn, Valdor, and Malcador (but mainly Dorn) must decide how to address four critical stress points around the Imperial Palace, namely: 

• Colossi Gate 
• Gorgon Bar (not a dive bar, but IIRC the remnant of a gate or some such) 
• Eternity Wall Spaceport 
• Saturnine Wall

If any fall, it spells really bad news for the Loyalists. What's more, the Loyalists only have resources to hold three of these four stress points. One of them cannot be held.

 

The first three of these are well-known to everyone. No secrets there.

However, the fourth, i.e. the Saturnine Wall, is less obvious as it only became a weakness quite recently due to crustal cracks appearing beneath the wall itself (caused by the Perturabo's apocalyptic shelling of the Palace). These cracks would allow a subterranean route into the Palace's inner sanctum via drill-equipped troop transports. Perturabo and Dorn are not sure whether the other is aware of the Saturnine weakness.

 

Perturabo allows Abaddon to take three companies of the SoH finest via the subterranean route in an operation I would characterise as a cross between a speartip assault and an infiltration. 

 

Dorn on the other hand decides to let the Eternity Wall Spaceport fall (the option least damaging to the Loyalist cause) in order to hold the other three stress points. He pretends he's oblivious to the Saturnine weakness and makes a show of committing resources to hold the Eternity Wall Spaceport.  

• The Khan and Valdor are tasked to hold the Colossi against the DG (who are helped by TSon sorcerers) 
• Sanguinius is tasked to hold the Gorgon Bar against mass IW forces
• A high-ranking Army general (shadowed by Dorn's Huscarl Cadwalder) is tasked to hold the Eternity Wall Spaceport against feral WE hordes (Camba Diaz and Shiban were previously running the defence of the Spaceport, and remain to assist) 
• Dorn assembles killteams (including Garro, Endryd Harr, and Loken) to ambush the strikeforce he believes will try to exploit the cracks beneath the Saturnine Wall. Land is tasked with sealing the cracks (with "Lockcrete") after the strikeforce enters.  

The idea is that Perturabo and Abaddon don't know whether an attempted incursion will be running into a Loyalist trap, and Dorn isn't certain whether an enemy strikeforce will even show up. To each side, it's a calculated throw of the dice. 

 

Side-Threads: 

• Sindermann - Dorn authorises Sindermann to reconstitute (in a manner) the Remembrancers. They are now an order of interrogators who will extract accounts from the defenders and record them as history, signifying that the Imperium has a future to look forward to after the Siege. Sindermann ends up at Saturnine.  
• Keeler - Sindermann tries to recruit Keeler but she can't leave her prison facility. Amon lets her interrogates fellow prisoners, including one Basilio Fo.
• Hari - Hari, a young male Remembrancer, meets a trooper called Ollie Piers and they join the defenders of the Eternity Wall Spaceport after their convoy is destroyed. Meet some other ragtag troopers, Joseph and Willem, at Eternity and a legend is born.   
• Zephon - A female Remembrancer (whose name I forget) goes to Gorgon Bar IIRC and meets Zephon, who dies shielding her from an explosion. His body ends up with Land.   
• John Grammaticus/Erda - I believe this thread has already been thoroughly discussed
• Abaddon - Everyone's favorite SoH obtains Perturabo's consent to the subterranean mission and also brings Eidolon, Fulgrim, and, with them, almost the entire IIIrd Legion onboard as a surface assault force to strike simultaneously with Abaddon's subterranean force against Saturnine
• Jenetia Krole - She goes to Eternity with Prefect Tsumomu of the Custodes. Her arc intersects rather nicely with that of Hari and Ollie

 

What I liked:

Generally well-written, high-octane action packed into these pages. Some might say a bit too much, but always enjoyable to read and it never dragged. A solid page-turner. Snappy, punchy dialogue...just trademark Abnett in this area. His marines, and soldiers in general, tend to have a (non-snarky) sense of humour, which I like (brings me back to the vibe of Horus Rising and Legion.) His Army personnel sound like real people stuck in a nightmarish meat-grinder and there is appropriate swearing. Oh yes, I rather liked Jenetia's last stand, and her contribution to the Imperial faith among the common troopers was rather poignant IMO. I do think her special ability was unique to her. It's plausible as her null field is probably freakishly strong.    

 

What I didn't like: 

• Almost too much going on - If you've gotten this far through my post, you'll probably note that there's quite a lot going on in the novel...to the point that reading my summary above would likely benefit someone who is starting Saturnine. There are four stress points and it feels like the novel is constantly jumping from point to point to point to point. Colossi (Khan), Gorgon (Sanguinius), and Eternity (Army general, Cadwalder, Diaz, Shiban) started to blur into each other. I had to keep reminding myself who is where fighting whom. Only Saturnine really stood out to me as unique. 
• Numbers - The numbers thrown around gave me the sense that the Siege of Terra was numerically smaller than the Siege of Stalingrad. Hundreds dying is somehow treated as significant. It felt like there were several hundred (or a few thousand at most) defenders at each stress point.
• Zephon's Death - He literally shows up on-page and dies immediately after. A bit underwhelming. Perhaps a chapter or two before he gets offed (would've packed more of a punch)? 
• Abaddon's saved again - His magi teleport him away right before Garro is about to execute him. This is very similar to how Layak saves him right before he's about to be vapourised in Solar War. I understand Abaddon is marked by dark fates, but personally, I think fewer brushes with death would make each incident more impactful. This time, Garros is left screaming "Nooo" at the space where Abaddon was...and it just struck me as a bit unintentionally funny.  
• Sanguinius' visions - It's crunch-time on Terra and everyone's favourite flying primarch is still being debilitated by his visions. I'm the guy who wants to see "Sanguinius Unleashed" at the Siege, an Angel of Wrath smiting Traitors so hard that we begin to believe he might have a chance of besting Daemon Angron. I would have preferred for this visions to have empowered him and taken him along a darker, Blacker path at this time, not creating an emotional connection through which his traitor brothers' emotions overwhelm him. I would dearly like Sanguinius to be stop being so (for lack of a better word) emo.    
• Agathe - I found this Army officer character at Colossi to be exceptionally annoying (this may or may not have been intentional on Abnett's part)  
• Bel Sepatus - This Blood Angel character could have benefited from a wee bit of character set-up. Felt like a faceless BA captain created specifically to get the chop by Abaddon. 

 

Questions/Issues: 

• Did Abaddon really think he could decapitate the Imperial defence with three SoH companies (the 1st, 18th, and 25th)? Even assuming the subterranean chambers under Saturnine were not turned into deathtraps. What's he going to do with three hundred marines? As far as I know, once he breaches the inner sanctum, he'd have to face the remaining Custodes on top of other Imperial defenders. Why would three hundred SoH be a game-changing factor here? Seems a bit overconfident, actually...a tad insane.  
• The Loyalist killteams dispatched to eliminate the subterranean incursion don't seem to be properly equipped. Not that many Terminators or heavy weapons. If I were Dorn, I would have armed these killteams to the absolute teeth.  
• The Saturnine gambit involves a few hundred marines vs. a few hundred marines. It's hard for me to believe that diverting a few hundred Loyalist marines from the other three stress points would materially affect the Loyalists' ability to hold them. Rather, I think the Imperium simply could not hold Colossi, Gorgon, and Eternity, even if no killteams went to Saturnine. The Imperium was able to hold Colossi, Gorgon, and Saturnine, because Saturnine was a smaller-scale affair and thus much easier to defend. 
• Fulgrim magically removes himself from the surface assault on the Saturnine Wall after easily regenerating from Dorn's blows. He does so because he doesn't like pain right now. This results in Dorn and Sigismund (who were originally going to partake in the subterranean ambush but went to the surface to face Fulgrm) slaughtering dozens of EC elite and Eidolon taking a 1100m dive off the wall. Somehow, eighteen thousand EC die in the surface assault. This just seems a bit too deus ex machina, especially Fulgrim's decision to take off.   
• At Eternity, the Army general and his second don't like Shiban because of how Jaghatai treated them earlier. I understand tempers are frayed and everyone is under pressure, but this struck me as rather peculiar. Shiban is obviously not Jaghatai and it was strange to me how they transferred their enmity to Shiban (probably one of the nicest marines you'd ever meet). 
• I feel like it may have been more powerful to have Aximand suffer Lev Goshen's fate. As it was written, a bit surprised Aximand didn't kill Land. 

 

Score: 7.8 (Still a very entertaining ride but not quite as spectacular as I had hoped) 

thanks for the summary.

 

having only read the spoilers, i have to agree that abaddon's constant brushes with death and resulting rescues could and should be toned down.

 

as for shiban taking the brunt for jaghatai's behaviour- maybe this is as close to 30k racism as we get. 'cos demonising an entire group for the (perceived) behaviour of the few is how racism tends to work.

 

and i'm surprised about this  novel not being driven by character. even the spoilers i've read seem laden with character moments and deep understandings of their motivations. all the actions seem to be motivated. but then, i'm one of the ones that would argue KNF is as much a character piece as it is plot driven.

Edited April 6, 2020 by mc warhammer

[Volt]

No, not necessarily. Warhammer 40k isn't exactly a setting built on the premise of perfect recall - quite the opposite. Perhaps the situation is roughly analogous to Thermopylae (e.g. people only remember the 300 Spartans, not their allies), and history has chosen to revolve around only those Legions who stood in their entirety with the Emperor on Terra's surface. Perhaps the Dark Angels, in their shame at not having made it there in time to have had a decisive impact, choose to omit their own role in the battle for the Solar system, or to cover for their own Primarch's absence. Perhaps the information is simply lost over the course of 10,000 years due to internal politicking or a myriad of potential other factors. Perhaps records were never adequately made of all of the ships that fought in Solar War because the Imperials are forced to pursue the Traitors immediately after their withdrawal from Terra's surface, and the numbers of Dark Angel ships were so small relative to the greater whole that they were categorized by Imperial scholars as a minor tale not worth telling in their recounting of the Siege of Terra.

 

Long story short, there is plenty of room for the Dark Angels to play some kind of role in the Solar campaign.

 

 

At the risk of mentioning that meme, perhaps this could be the source of the whole "The Dark Angels waited to see who would win before taking part"?

 

"We have arrived! Wait... their fleet is how big? Ok, we're not gonna do anything if we make a move now, let's just... let's just wait for reinforcements, shall we?"

 

This is actually a really good take!

 

There isn't room. Contrary to popular belief 40k is actually barely removed by 30k in terms of generations due to the sheer lifespan of people. You can have as little as just 2 dreadnoughts removed from a Chapter knowing exact information about what happened in 30k due to one brother talking to another brother as dreadnoughts have lifespans measured in millennia. Considering that marines also tend to have eidetic memories, it'd be quite hard for information to be fudged up by M41 as the Chapter should have fairly fresh witness testimony from that time period. In a similar manner, the Mechanicus isn't that removed from the 30k era either.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Volt

[mc warhammer]

 

 

No, not necessarily. Warhammer 40k isn't exactly a setting built on the premise of perfect recall - quite the opposite. Perhaps the situation is roughly analogous to Thermopylae (e.g. people only remember the 300 Spartans, not their allies), and history has chosen to revolve around only those Legions who stood in their entirety with the Emperor on Terra's surface. Perhaps the Dark Angels, in their shame at not having made it there in time to have had a decisive impact, choose to omit their own role in the battle for the Solar system, or to cover for their own Primarch's absence. Perhaps the information is simply lost over the course of 10,000 years due to internal politicking or a myriad of potential other factors. Perhaps records were never adequately made of all of the ships that fought in Solar War because the Imperials are forced to pursue the Traitors immediately after their withdrawal from Terra's surface, and the numbers of Dark Angel ships were so small relative to the greater whole that they were categorized by Imperial scholars as a minor tale not worth telling in their recounting of the Siege of Terra.

 

Long story short, there is plenty of room for the Dark Angels to play some kind of role in the Solar campaign.

 

 

 

At the risk of mentioning that meme, perhaps this could be the source of the whole "The Dark Angels waited to see who would win before taking part"?

 

"We have arrived! Wait... their fleet is how big? Ok, we're not gonna do anything if we make a move now, let's just... let's just wait for reinforcements, shall we?"

This is actually a really good take!

There isn't room. Contrary to popular belief 40k is actually barely removed by 30k in terms of generations due to the sheer lifespan of people. You can have as little as just 2 dreadnoughts removed from a Chapter knowing exact information about what happened in 30k due to one brother talking to another brother as dreadnoughts have lifespans measured in millennia. Considering that marines also tend to have eidetic memories, it'd be quite hard for information to be fudged up by M41 as the Chapter should have fairly fresh witness testimony from that time period. In a similar manner, the Mechanicus isn't that removed from the 30k era either.

one lifespan is enough for info to get muddled.

 

even within that one lifespan, we just have to look at all the misinformation afloat in our current society on modern events to see how unreliable things are.

 

and there's also the question of who has access to what information. dark angel dreadnought ancient brother lemielielaswain might know exactly what went down, but does the average dark angel marine have access to lemielielaswain's accounts? or a cousin marine of the iron hands legion who were in tatters during the siege and not exactly keeping immaculate records or in the soundest state of mind? does the average imperial citizen and so on.

 

on a related note, adb and spurrier have done a great job of showing how even astartes with eidetic memories who lived through the exact same scenarios come away with divergent interpretations of those events.

Edited April 6, 2020 by mc warhammer