Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett

[b1soul]

"New things are fine, hell they're wonderful. So long as they're actually good"

 

This is often subjective

[nagashnee]

"New things are fine, hell they're wonderful. So long as they're actually good"

 

This is often subjective

 

Yes and no, when taken on the scale of 'the community'' good=a majority positive response. Think of it in rotten tomatoes score, if say 60% of mention of a new thing are positive the remaining split between indifferent and negative is a good thing.  anything less then 50% becomes a mediocre and 35% or less is actively bad. The issue is  here is lack of any real type of feedback method.  But good and bad while varies per person do still exist on a community wide level. 

[bluntblade]

It can be hard to know how representative a given reaction is. Rotten Tomatoes has been the setting for review bombings (often by accounts created to post a single review as well as bots), and in our own corner, I've seen defences of MoM posted to 1odchan posted only to be removed multiple times.

[nagashnee]

It can be hard to know how representative a given reaction is. Rotten Tomatoes has been the setting for review bombings (often by accounts created to post a single review as well as bots), and in our own corner, I've seen defences of MoM posted to 1odchan posted only to be removed multiple times.

Oh i fully agree, i was merely pointing out that saying that we cant judge good vs bad products from BL because of personal subjectivity is a weak defence. Rather then advocating a specific type of reaction representation. 

[b1soul]

It's hard to argue that the addition of fluff like Perpetuals as humanity's sheperds or Erda as a genetic contributor to the Astartes project are objectively bad

[mc warhammer]

was amar astarte also responsible for the creation of the TW?

[Fire Golem]

 

It can be hard to know how representative a given reaction is. Rotten Tomatoes has been the setting for review bombings (often by accounts created to post a single review as well as bots), and in our own corner, I've seen defences of MoM posted to 1odchan posted only to be removed multiple times.

Oh i fully agree, i was merely pointing out that saying that we cant judge good vs bad products from BL because of personal subjectivity is a weak defence. Rather then advocating a specific type of reaction representation. 

 

I wager the vast majority of readers of BL books are either happy with any changes or ambivalent to them (or even don’t know that they’re changes at all). Even authors that are generally disliked on the forum here sell a tonne of books. 

[Gongsun Zan]

My unorganised thoughts:

 

 

It's great to finally see all the main legions represented in the book, but the lack of established characters set up in the earlier parts of the series makes some of the legions feel a lot thinner than others - how many traitor legions are just a Primarch and an equerry right now?

 

I really like the idea of breaking the book up into four fronts.

 

This book covering some of the same themes as the last two but doing them so much better makes me retroactively dislike the First Wall even more. IMO the last two books should have been condensed into one novel and a spinoff novella.

 

That Camba Diaz moment is 11/10.

 

That said I feel his "death" (as with a few others) are fakeouts. Suprised to see Falkus Kibre get his head chopped off though - I wonder if he'll just show up next book as if nothing had happened.

 

I can't shake the image of Eidolon doing a wilhelm scream as he's tossed off the Saturnine wall.

 

What exactly was Pert's plan before this? Have the EC and SOH just sit around in reserve?

 

I don't get the fuss about the new lore. I don't see Erda's involvement as inconsistent with chaos shenanigans. Corswain's arrival to me seems deliberately set up so we all speculate why nobody remembers the Dark Angels at the siege.

 

I guess it's Loken saving the Emperor since Olly has had his moment? I'd be very disappointed if so.

 

I give this a 9/10, because I feel (i) its hindered a bit by the lack of set up from earlier books in the series, and (ii) there's a sort of middle-of-the-series feel to it where its a bit hesitant to move the plot forward too much.

 

[Roomsky]

My unorganised thoughts:

 

 

It's great to finally see all the main legions represented in the book, but the lack of established characters set up in the earlier parts of the series makes some of the legions feel a lot thinner than others - how many traitor legions are just a Primarch and an equerry right now?

 

I really like the idea of breaking the book up into four fronts.

 

This book covering some of the same themes as the last two but doing them so much better makes me retroactively dislike the First Wall even more. IMO the last two books should have been condensed into one novel and a spinoff novella.

 

That Camba Diaz moment is 11/10.

 

That said I feel his "death" (as with a few others) are fakeouts. Suprised to see Falkus Kibre get his head chopped off though - I wonder if he'll just show up next book as if nothing had happened.

 

I can't shake the image of Eidolon doing a wilhelm scream as he's tossed off the Saturnine wall.

 

What exactly was Pert's plan before this? Have the EC and SOH just sit around in reserve?

 

I don't get the fuss about the new lore. I don't see Erda's involvement as inconsistent with chaos shenanigans. Corswain's arrival to me seems deliberately set up so we all speculate why nobody remembers the Dark Angels at the siege.

 

I guess it's Loken saving the Emperor since Olly has had his moment? I'd be very disappointed if so.

 

I give this a 9/10, because I feel (i) its hindered a bit by the lack of set up from earlier books in the series, and (ii) there's a sort of middle-of-the-series feel to it where its a bit hesitant to move the plot forward too much.

 

 

H-hesitant to move the plot forward?

 

He killed half the cast.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Roomsky

[bluntblade]

There's a contradictory duality to the grumbles which I've seen somewhere before.

 

On that basis, I expect to adore this book whilst coming to hate my love for it.

[Gongsun Zan]

 

My unorganised thoughts:

It's great to finally see all the main legions represented in the book, but the lack of established characters set up in the earlier parts of the series makes some of the legions feel a lot thinner than others - how many traitor legions are just a Primarch and an equerry right now?

I really like the idea of breaking the book up into four fronts.

This book covering some of the same themes as the last two but doing them so much better makes me retroactively dislike the First Wall even more. IMO the last two books should have been condensed into one novel and a spinoff novella.

That Camba Diaz moment is 11/10.

That said I feel his "death" (as with a few others) are fakeouts. Suprised to see Falkus Kibre get his head chopped off though - I wonder if he'll just show up next book as if nothing had happened.

I can't shake the image of Eidolon doing a wilhelm scream as he's tossed off the Saturnine wall.

What exactly was Pert's plan before this? Have the EC and SOH just sit around in reserve?

I don't get the fuss about the new lore. I don't see Erda's involvement as inconsistent with chaos shenanigans. Corswain's arrival to me seems deliberately set up so we all speculate why nobody remembers the Dark Angels at the siege.

I guess it's Loken saving the Emperor since Olly has had his moment? I'd be very disappointed if so.

I give this a 9/10, because I feel (i) its hindered a bit by the lack of set up from earlier books in the series, and (ii) there's a sort of middle-of-the-series feel to it where its a bit hesitant to move the plot forward too much.

 

 

H-hesitant to move the plot forward?

 

He killed half the cast.

I see it as the opposite - wrapping up a lot of micro character threads seems to be Dan's attempt to make up for the fact that on a macro level, he can't have anything too major happen because we're only on Book 4 of 8. At the end of the day, the book feels like a stalemate - the loyalists lose one front, whereas the traitors effectively lose the EC and a good chunk of the SOH. Unless we take a trip to the Webway, I expect the next two books to maintain the same pattern.

 

I don't blame Dan - I see it as problem of the series being stretched to 8 books. Of course, my views on this may change once the rest of the series is out.

[Scribe]

I wonder if my thoughts on the length have been consistent. This could easily have been a 3 or 4 book series.

[Roomsky]

I wonder if my thoughts on the length have been consistent. This could easily have been a 3 or 4 book series.

 

If that's one for the Solar War and three on the ground I'm in complete agreement. Especially if the authors involved put out 550-page beasts like Saturnine.

 

Also because I don't think you miss that much skipping the current books 2 and 3, besides one character death.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Roomsky

[Lucerne]

Honestly the siege as a whole feels like BL dropped the ball and left things for FW to eventually clean up and make coherent.

[Bobss]

The Siege of Terra has always been at least a trilogy in my opinion. We don't want a repeat of Isstvan III (my favourite battle of the entire Heresy reduced to two average... poor... bad... books) which relies heavily on flashbacks or references from later books, or outside Forge World supplements to stand on its own two feet. I also feel like there needs to be at least one 'the siege grinds on' book. One book, purely dedicated to siege warfare with the grinding, bloodied attrition of the conflict on full display. No side stories. No moustache-twirling demon primarchs sat on their battle-barges being fed grapes. Just one book of raw, pure undiluted SIEGE siegeyness. Verdun with lasers and topknots, that's all I want, and it seems like Dan to Man has delivered it in his own way. Yes, I'm sure Wraight's and ADB's entries will have that grinding-siege feeling too, and The Solar War had a lovely siege feeling as well (in space - in fact French did a fab job of this), but Saturine seems to be the workhorse of the pack - the book that links the earlier stages to the later stages of the Siege

[Indefragable]

@Bobss that’s kind of the Conscripts’ arc in LatD. It just doesn’t feel that way since it’s told every 2-3 chapters or so.

[Angel_of_Blood]

That Camba Diaz moment is 11/10.

 

That said I feel his "death" (as with a few others) are fakeouts. Suprised to see Falkus Kibre get his head chopped off though - I wonder if he'll just show up next book as if nothing had happened.

 

It's just awesome isn't it. One of my favourite parts. I don't think that one is a fakeout though, Shiban yes, Diaz no.I like the image they said of him. Still stood alone, dead but having not taken one step back to the sword line he made.

[Izlude]

Just finished Watchers in the Throne 2 (moved up my pace to hit this one) and started Saturnine. Have been avoiding the spoilers but can tell there is alot of chatter and opinions which tells me this will be quite the book. Looking at the cast in the book....like wow...I don't think I have seen such as extensive cast (yes I know many will get like a page at the most) but if there is one person who can weave these all in it is Abnett. Also 500+ pages...will savor this one. 

 

The art is awesome as has been the LE theme. Love the marble busts and Horus and Magnus in the back looks sweet. I do like the Magnus one better but Horus looks cool but sort of different what I envisioned the most charismatic Primarch to look like. 

 

Just read the opening chapter...and all I have to say is wow. Lightning tower has to be my a top HH short in my book and of course Abnett has to basically give us Lightning tower part 2 and hit it out of the park with this one. An awesome set-up and can't wait to read more. Abnett basically turned Dorn (who many write as a stone-faced heartless bastard) into someone more relatable. I do say that as Dorn is my second favorite Primarch so I tend to scrutinize his writing little more. I may have to reread this section a few times just to savor it (it was that good to me). 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Izlude

[Marshal Vespasian]

Do we have any more characteristics of camba diaz? Except he has a sword? I might want to build a siege breaker.

[1ncarnadine]

I finished this a few days ago. I really enjoyed it! For the most part. I'm just going to go ahead and throw up my reading notes. They're pretty knee-jerk and I've since come to terms with a few of my emotional responses, but may be worth a read if anyone is interested in yet another rando's take on this book. Also keep in mind I'm a diehard traitor who has been actively cheering for Garro and Loken to die for a while, so I was bound to not like a few things.

Saturnine Notes:


Sweet, I'm not even 50 pages in to Saturnine and we have Legios Tempestus, Vulpa and "maybe Ursa" on the ground
 
I love the bit with Perturabo enjoying showing everyone his plans. It's really what he's about.

Solemnis Bellus sounds like a Mortis engine, and more Vulpa! Aww, they were doofs for Sanguinius.

p.181-182: this section on Mortarion’s tendencies sounds a lot like Chris Wraight talking about him as if he were an alcoholic at a Weekender a ways back

p.361: I’m falling into this thing with Abnett where most of the Loyalists are functionally identical. Good, dutiful soldiers with no personality. This definitely happened in Know no Fear too. That there are a decent amount of Custodes characters doesn’t help, and it’s leading to a kind of reading fatigue. There’s also kind of an “in the shadow of the Primarch” effect reinforcing the problem. A few still stick out well (Raldoron, Shiban), and it’s not just that they’ve featured in other works.

p.431: “He’s here my lord. The Phoenician.” Dan is admittedly really good at dramatizing the moment crap hits a fan

p.447: It’s completely ridiculous that the Scars have made three charges outside, two directly from the gates, and nothing has really been done to cut them off and punish their decision. This doesn’t feel earned. “Things are really, really bad, but we have 3 storm seers and another gate charge so we got this.” I’m now really concerned that whole 100,000 strength Emperor’s Children attack + Daemon Fulgrim is going to get turned back by Dorn and 1000 Fists.



p.454: And they’re supposed to have depleted themselves to deal with Fulgrim? it, just leave Loken alone, apparently that’s enough.


No seriously, am I in for another… 130 pages or so of Loyalists busting out one-sided victories? I thought this section would suffer in particular for having its end spoiled (I know most of the Mournival get cut down by Loken), but I expected more give and take and tension. It doesn’t have any to start with and I’m going to have to note that as a huge mark against the book. If you’re a huge Loyalist fan who just wanted to see the Traitor characters pay since the start, this is big personal payoff, but I am definitely not that reader. 


p.460: Catulan in Terminator plate?

p.480: I’ve been skimming the section at this point. It was always likely that the whole Sons of Horus push would end badly but the one-sidedness hasn’t let up and a lot of arcs are just kind of ending… with pages of description of the combat but again no real payoff. This feels like weightless David Annandale action. I have no reason to be invested.

p.491: Sanguinius appears and they automatically win, again. still skimming this...

p.496: sigh. see p.447 note. Fulgrim’s portrayal is as ridiculous as Haley’s in LatD. What is this “it hurts so I’m out” nonsense with a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh? Isn’t there supposed to be a blurred line between pleasure and pain? This is schlock. Rapidly losing me, Dan.

p.506: I'll admit Abaddon's section here is good, but it's a lot of character development to cram into a few pages. "Abaddon wanted it to never end. Ever. Ever." Haar's death is a good scene but I was personally invested in seeing some doomsday weapon/questionable-ethics-during-the-Siege stuff so I'm still a little disappointed.

 

p.508: "Eidolon has the strength of a primarch" followed immediately by "Sigismund breaks no sweat to win, kicks him off wall as if he was pre-Path of Heaven Eidolon." Dan. DAN

This sets up a really confusing showing on the Vengeful Spirit at the end. What Sons of Horus are left to be involved in any way in that story? We have Argonis and Abaddon and everyone else is dead. Not just the Mournival, like the entire Legion elite. The Emperor's Children have lost a ton of champions and have a ~20% fatality rate, let alone casualty. Ouch. I'll definitely reserve some amount of judgement based on the books to follow, but yeah, this feels like Abnett slipping the leash again. I was optimistic seeing some obvious writer's room inspiration in the first two sections, but the 3rd act was a head-scratcher to rival McNeill or Haley. It reminds me of Pharos in the worst way.

 

p.511: All that said, Aximand's death and its set-up were really well done. I'll tip my hat to that. "You always were the wrong Horus." Loken is definitely going to jack Mourn-it-all.

 

Krole's sections are another star of the book. A solid arc and resolution.

Post-notes thoughts:
Loken definitely jacked Mourn-it-all.
I may have bemoaned some EC champions getting gutted, but I've also just recently remembered that Kaesoron and Vairosean exist and what the actual heck happened to them? Maybe they'll feature in the siege in another book as major POVs?

[b1soul]

I believe Vairosean is actually dead (not Eidolon "dead") as of Angel Exterminatus. Kaesoron makes it to 40K.

[1ncarnadine]

I believe Vairosean is actually dead (not Eidolon "dead") as of Angel Exterminatus. Kaesoron makes it to 40K.

Oh yeah, you're totally right about Marius. I guess he ate some volkite? Shows what I know. Kaesoron's going to ascend, supposedly, but maybe that's a double-edged Skraivok situation, so we'll see.

[Roomsky]

Great rundown LetsYouDown.

 

None of your negatives bothered me personally, but I can see how they might rankle. I'm curious about Julius going unremarked as well, but I'm hoping for another Skraivok situation too.

[Angel_of_Blood]

 but I've also just recently remembered that Kaesoron and Vairosean exist and what the actual heck happened to them? Maybe they'll feature in the siege in another book as major POVs?

 

Vairosean died in Angel Exterminatus.

 

Edit: Whoops, forum didn't update the replies. Already been said!

Edited April 14, 2020 by Angel_of_Blood

[Biscuittzz]

Having not read this myself, but having read the numerous spoilers and synopsis all over the place, I'm surprised at the general non-reaction to the tremendous plot armour of Abaddon getting teleported to safety. I'm still particularly miffed at how he dispatched Jubal Khan in Solar War, which was basically surmised as "Jubal was winning the fight and was going to kill him, yet Abaddon was a killer so he HAD to win and he killed him" - I was shocked considering what I came to expect from French as a writer. 

 

It seems they want Abaddon to be in the thick of it constantly but still can't write a plausible way of extraditing himself from the situations he's in without horrendous plot armour.

 

I do believe however that he will possibly be the one to drop the shields of the Vengeful Spirit.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Biscuittzz