Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett

[1ncarnadine]

Having not read this myself, but having read the numerous spoilers and synopsis all over the place, I'm surprised at the general non-reaction to the tremendous plot armour of Abaddon getting teleported to safety. I'm still particularly miffed at how he dispatched Jubal Khan in Solar War, which was basically surmised as "Jubal was winning the fight and was going to kill him, yet Abaddon was a killer so he HAD to win and he killed him" - I was shocked considering what I came to expect from French as a writer. 

 

It seems they want Abaddon to be in the thick of it constantly but still can't write a plausible way of extraditing himself from the situations he's in without horrendous plot armour.

 

I do believe however that he will possibly be the one to drop the shields of the Vengeful Spirit.

It actually did irk me, but apparently not enough to write a note on. When the whole operation started, I figured Abaddon's Termite would just get stuck ahead of the lockcrete, and he'd miss the whole massacre. When he did arrive by teleportation, it seemed likely he would have to leave the same way. So maybe I was just mentally prepared for it because I knew it would have to happen? He also literally has the hand of fate over him and is being watched by the gods in the warp, so another reason why plot armor is to be expected.

[b1soul]

@ Biscuitzz

 

I have said it before...

 

Abaddon's brushes with death should be a tad less frequent. We all get he's Marked by Dark Fates, but this is starting to feel like bad Deus ex machina, which it is

[DarkChaplain]

Re: Abaddon

 

I've found this entire arc extremely jarring to begin with. With how Layak has been basically telling him "dude, you'll be the next Horus, trust me on this" the entire freaking time, it couldn't be more in your face. For all the "Abaddon is great, really, guys, here's some background from Cthonia" content during the Siege, there's a big discrepancy between stuff he actually achieves on his own merits, and where he's doing the wrong thing just to repeatedly get his arse saved. Layak did it so much, I was relieved and cheering when he blew up. Good riddance. And now he's back with teleportation shenanigans, too.

 

On top of that, this entire "the Gods want you for Warmaster" plot is too thick for somebody who ends up abandoning the Legion Wars to go into exile for who knows how long, keeps supposedly rejecting their offers, and then actually has to compete for the job against various other warlords.

From how it has been conveyed before, Abaddon's role as Warmaster and the attention of the Pantheon were always something that seemed earned through his deeds, not predestined to the point where he'll always get a Out of Jail Free card whenever he's in trouble. He was/became Warmaster because he had the strength to claim the title and dominance over the Legions and warbands, not because the Gods picked him for the role before Horus was even dead. Or worse, before Horus had even really entered the stage.

 

Right now, for all the reinforced Abaddon-Awesomeness in the Siege books, I actually feel like he's being cheapened as a character.

[b1soul]

Abaddon is a dish with too many cooks. Abnett and ADB have done him best. The teleportation shenanigans would have been more tolerable absent the Layak shenanigans.

Edited April 15, 2020 by b1soul

[Scammel]

Layak is Abaddon's one and only issue for me - he's also Horus' issue, given that the implications of lining up Abaddon for the future drastically undermines the Warmaster's role as uber-antagonist.

 

Abaddon in Saturnine feels like the steering wheel has been wrenched back to the character's original trajectory and his distaste for Layak and, more importantly, Horus' current state, makes a lot more sense if he's still the semi-honourable warrior chieftain. Abaddon's nostalgia for the crusade puts him in a vulnerable place for the rapid decline of the Sons, starting with the Saturnine decapitation and swiftly hitting the nadir of Horus' death.

 

For me, that's when you would introduce a Layak, and have Abaddon grapple with his broken dreams of warrior-brotherhood and the beguiling power of Chaos, before ultimately emerging as the hybrid of both in the Black Legion series.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Scammel

[StrangerOrders]

My two cents on this arent particularly exciting.

 

I liked Abby in Rising, I tolerated him in the Black Legion books, I sorta liked him here.  I cant articulate exactly how much I see him as an avatar of my least favorite parts of 40k most other times.

 

As to his appearance in Saturnine.

 

I liked that he seems to have wanted to die.

 

No seriously, his reaction to being saved is to break down crying.

 

He wanted to die. He wanted to die as a warrior in a pitched and ugly fight. He wanted Garro's sword to end him, he wanted that to be the end of his story.

 

Not a tyrant fueled by the pantheon, not as the second who saw the man he followed into hell be hollowed out. He wanted a genuine and honest death with no Warp influence within 10km of him.

 

He isnt even angry, the sense I got from his last scene is that it really broke him deep down. As if that was his last chance to escape bad writing :P

 

The book didnt feel like Abby was saved by Plot Armor, it felt like he was destroyed by it. Which, if you are going to keep him alive, is the best way to do it I think.

 

I am just praying that he is more Saturnine for the rest of the Siege and less 'Abbadon, there are two empty seats in front of you. Please move forward so you can hear the lecture and stop scribbling about how misunderstood you are in your notebook please'. 

 

Now that I think about it, everything about Abbadon in this book vs the bulk of the Siege/HH can be applied to the Sixteenth.

[1ncarnadine]

I don't think Abaddon wants to die in that scene. He doesn't really want to live, either. He wants to be on the razor's edge of intense combat, forever, and for a second he realizes that. Every extreme emotion it susses out, he's utterly addicted to. The despair, the rage, the hope, the euphoria. It's why the gods love him. Abaddon might despise the idea of being a puppet, but he loves the chaos of war, and the gods are happy to give him an eternity of his favorite drink. It's part of his character's multiple push-pull balancing acts.

 

I cant articulate exactly how much I see him as an avatar of my least favorite parts of 40k most other times.

Sounds like something to reflect on!

[StrangerOrders]

I don't think Abaddon wants to die in that scene. He doesn't really want to live, either. He wants to be on the razor's edge of intense combat, forever, and for a second he realizes that. Every extreme emotion it susses out, he's utterly addicted to. The despair, the rage, the hope, the euphoria. It's why the gods love him. Abaddon might despise the idea of being a puppet, but he loves the chaos of war, and the gods are happy to give him an eternity of his favorite drink. It's part of his character's multiple push-pull balancing acts.

 

I cant articulate exactly how much I see him as an avatar of my least favorite parts of 40k most other times.

Sounds like something to reflect on!

Hmm... I read that scene very differently tbh. Especially with the last lines and what the previous scene was.

 

Its not really something to be reflected on. Its the repeated saying of something in the setting and the very little show. We are told so much about Abbadon, things that sound like they should be interesting and draw attention.

 

But instead he usually receives characterization that feels like flaccid lip service or we otherwise see things that run counter to what we are told.

 

To use a broader example. We are often told that the Sixteenth were known for controlled feracity, discipline and that they were among the most diplomatically adept legions. And that Abbadon was among their most iconic and gifted members.

 

I think this book fits that if you apply the ample layer of decay that is noted. To the point where Pert more or less spells out to Abbadons face that the SoH are a pretty pathetic shadow of the LW. 

 

But in most of the HH, can you genuinely say that comes through? Does Abbadon in most outings strike you as even slightly charismatic? Does Horus seem like he could talk a serial killer into murder? 

 

I really don't. Which frustrates me because of how much I loved Rising and the idea of the Luna Wolves. I loved the idea of them in the Black Books. I loved them in this book.

 

But as a whole, they and Abbadon are the most criminal case of telling rather than showing in the setting, save for maybe the Emp's charisma.

[Roomsky]

I honestly believe most of Abaddon's issues can be laid at Mcneill's feet. (Mcneill, and the fact every official piece of art for Abaddon makes him look like the angriest man who ever lived.)

 

Abnett and, though incredibly dull, even Counter portrayed him as a competent warrior with an occasional hot streak in the opening trilogy. Mcneill for whatever reason reduced him to a ball of hypercondensed fury that wanted to murder Karkasy in public for one remark. Even more unfortunately, authors inexplicably ran with this interpretation. The absolute nadir is Haley's, who seems to be on the verge of assaulting everything, living or otherwise, within a two kilometre radius.

 

I have to give props for French's portrayal of the man in Solar War, as it's the only time I was ever convinced both sides of the spectrum could reside in the same character. Otherwise I think there's just two Abaddons running around, and no one can figure it out because they're both true sons with the same top knot.

[1ncarnadine]

Contradiction is part of his character. He's a delusional slave to darkness.

 

But in most of the HH, can you genuinely say that comes through? Does Abbadon in most outings strike you as even slightly charismatic? Does Horus seem like he could talk a serial killer into murder? 

 

I really don't. Which frustrates me because of how much I loved Rising and the idea of the Luna Wolves. I loved the idea of them in the Black Books. I loved them in this book.

 

But as a whole, they and Abbadon are the most criminal case of telling rather than showing in the setting, save for maybe the Emp's charisma.

I understand the frustration. That's definitely where selective reading comes in, for me, at least. Vengeful Spirit is a great example. I tend to just... gloss over that. McNeill did some work on making Abaddon... less. Other authors have been de-constructive too (not in the lit crit sense either, that's way too much credit), but McNeill did the heaviest blows.

edit: dangit roomsky

Edited April 23, 2020 by LetsYouDown

[mc warhammer]

 

I don't think Abaddon wants to die in that scene. He doesn't really want to live, either. He wants to be on the razor's edge of intense combat, forever, and for a second he realizes that. Every extreme emotion it susses out, he's utterly addicted to. The despair, the rage, the hope, the euphoria. It's why the gods love him. Abaddon might despise the idea of being a puppet, but he loves the chaos of war, and the gods are happy to give him an eternity of his favorite drink. It's part of his character's multiple push-pull balancing acts.

 

I cant articulate exactly how much I see him as an avatar of my least favorite parts of 40k most other times.

Sounds like something to reflect on!

Hmm... I read that scene very differently tbh. Especially with the last lines and what the previous scene was.

 

Its not really something to be reflected on. Its the repeated saying of something in the setting and the very little show. We are told so much about Abbadon, things that sound like they should be interesting and draw attention.

 

But instead he usually receives characterization that feels like flaccid lip service or we otherwise see things that run counter to what we are told.

 

To use a broader example. We are often told that the Sixteenth were known for controlled feracity, discipline and that they were among the most diplomatically adept legions. And that Abbadon was among their most iconic and gifted members.

 

I think this book fits that if you apply the ample layer of decay that is noted. To the point where Pert more or less spells out to Abbadons face that the SoH are a pretty pathetic shadow of the LW. 

 

But in most of the HH, can you genuinely say that comes through? Does Abbadon in most outings strike you as even slightly charismatic? Does Horus seem like he could talk a serial killer into murder? 

 

I really don't. Which frustrates me because of how much I loved Rising and the idea of the Luna Wolves. I loved the idea of them in the Black Books. I loved them in this book.

 

But as a whole, they and Abbadon are the most criminal case of telling rather than showing in the setting, save for maybe the Emp's charisma.

 

all that makes me wish for a more focused SoH story, that really shows us what happens when the best and brightest go rogue.

[StrangerOrders]

I honestly believe most of Abaddon's issues can be laid at Mcneill's feet. (Mcneill, and the fact every official piece of art for Abaddon makes him look like the angriest man who ever lived.)

 

Abnett and, though incredibly dull, even Counter portrayed him as a competent warrior with an occasional hot streak in the opening trilogy. Mcneill for whatever reason reduced him to a ball of hypercondensed fury that wanted to murder Karkasy in public for one remark. Even more unfortunately, authors inexplicably ran with this interpretation. The absolute nadir is Haley's, who seems to be on the verge of assaulting everything, living or otherwise, within a two kilometre radius.

 

I have to give props for French's portrayal of the man in Solar War, as it's the only time I was ever convinced both sides of the spectrum could reside in the same character. Otherwise I think there's just two Abaddons running around, and no one can figure it out because they're both true sons with the same top knot.

Very well said. I am not the biggest fan of French's Abbadon* though (I think we've spoken on it on another thread, but I thought Solar War wasn't his best work), there is just so much brooding. The reason I verge into 'he is an edgy teenager' description for him is because he seems to spend the bulk of his time either brooding about how the situation is everyone's fault but his or angrily growling at everyone.

 

Heck, even ADB's Abbadon spends so much time trying to dominate everyone that I could feasibly see him trying to stare down a statue of a chihuahua and then smashing it when he loses.

 

Its an irksome departure from how... idk... interesting he came across to me in Rising. It feels like the only time I ever thought 'its such a shame this guy ended up where he did, he seems cool' instead of 'how on earth do you rectally implant Butcher's Nails?'

 

 

Contradiction is part of his character. He's a delusional slave to darkness.

 

But in most of the HH, can you genuinely say that comes through? Does Abbadon in most outings strike you as even slightly charismatic? Does Horus seem like he could talk a serial killer into murder? 

 

I really don't. Which frustrates me because of how much I loved Rising and the idea of the Luna Wolves. I loved the idea of them in the Black Books. I loved them in this book.

 

But as a whole, they and Abbadon are the most criminal case of telling rather than showing in the setting, save for maybe the Emp's charisma.

I understand the frustration. That's definitely where selective reading comes in, for me, at least. Vengeful Spirit is a great example. I tend to just... gloss over that. McNeill did some work on making Abaddon... less. Other authors have been de-constructive too (not in the lit crit sense either, that's way too much credit), but McNeill did the heaviest blows.

 

edit: dangit roomsky

I... I both agree and am extremely wary of cheapening Chaos as an excuse for bad writing. The switch he did between Rising and False Gods is whiplash on the scale that Im surprised his neck didnt break. 

 

I do agree with your second point though, Abbadon and arguably the whole of the Sixteenth has been pretty brutally flanderized. Its gotten to the point where we officially have Horus's first impression of a brother is 'oh no, I have a little brother! Quick Daddy! Kill it so I dont have to compete for shotgun on the bridge'... which kinda has Horus to the point where his infamous likability is a mask and he was always an unstable and jealous wreck.

 

While most of the rest of the Legion is down to gang-signs, topknots and growling at people who ask them to do things... I am not sure how they manage to function as written, they make the World Eaters seem like a model force by comparison.

 

And honestly? I am scared of saying this because in my experience it tends to be a way of losing all credibility in the 40k community in my experience. But I just do not like McNeill, at all. It isnt about his ideas or his prose, its the fact the guy is the opposite of a team player (an accusation folks most commonly put on Abnett for some reason) and he seems to love running roughshod over and contradicting other writers (and himself). The Sixteenth are by far the greatest example of this.

 

I am not sure how you get from Horus Rising to the Sixteenth of the HH collectively. But it is in my opinion, entirely on him.

 

Pardon the rep-suicide rant, but its a view that the shear improvement from Saturnine has really brought to the fore for me.

 

And Abbadon feels like the most clear example of this.

 

*Love French in general, but that book's my least favorite of his.

Edited April 23, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Roomsky]

Regarding Saturnine specifically, did anyone else notice that Abnett basically ignored every portrayal of

Keeler

after his own, and just picked up after Horus Rising? They don't act anything like they've done for basically the entire series.

 

Much like with Abaddon, I can only praise this move.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Roomsky

[StrangerOrders]

Regarding Saturnine specifically, did anyone else notice that Abnett basically ignored every portrayal of

Keeler

after his own, and just picked up after Horus Rising? They don't act anything like they've done for basically the entire series.

 

Much like with Abaddon, I can only praise this move.

I'd upvote you for making a very good point I very much agree with but I am apparently out of my positivity allowance for the day.

 

I love this site but man does that feature not jive with my desire to like things.

 

But yes, I said earlier in this thread that faith and religion is treated much better in this book. And it seems Abnett actually understands how both theology and personal faith works better than most authors.

 

Keeler is a Zealot and it does come across, but she seems like a genuinely good(ish) and well-intentioned person with nuanced reasons for her faith.

 

Rather than a screaming fool that frankly makes you wonder if the author has ever met someone religious that wasnt on a lunatic or that they realize that most world religions have millennia of genuine intellectual thought put into the hows and whys of faith.

 

I similarly love Sinderman in this one, because he seems like a Scholastic religious scholar straight from old theological tracts in how he agonizes over things.

 

Like I said a few pages back, its the difference between a scholar and a zealot, a professor and a saint.

 

Its very well done.

Edited April 23, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[aa.logan]

Do I want to comment on the thread more than the book? Kind of; certainly it felt like it took as long to read. Some folk sure are keen to spend a lot of time and energy typing about what they don’t like about a book that they hadn’t actually read. Other folk made some fantastic points about the actual text; even though I split my reading of this thread over three (3!) calendar days,I still ran out of’likes’ and haven’t acknowledged all of the points I’d have liked to in that way...

 

It took me a long time to actually get into this book, I think partially that was due to the weightiness of the actual book, and partially due to my personal circumstances (I first tried reading it the day after the UK went into lockdown and I’d lost one of my dogs)- after a fortnight of trying the first ten pages over and over and carting the book from room to room, I gave up and read some other things instead. I’m glad that I took my time and dove into this in the right frame of mind- it’s an absolutely fantastic book, and one that is well worth savouring.

 

It’s really Dan at his very best- the first chapter proper feels like Stienbeck’s WW2 writing, or the lighter parts of Heller- the device of individual using their (former?) regiments as an integral part of their names and how quickly the practice spread is the sort of colour that sets hiswriting apart.

 

The cast of characters is, as noted elsewhere, broad but not unwieldy and hopefully hits the happy medium between all-Astartes-all-the-time and showing the full scope of the conflict that different readers seem to want; he is upfront in his afterword about wanting to have a tonal shift between perspectives and he certainly achieves that.

 

I’d echo the earlier point that the HH series of books should take primacy over earlier, much briefer telling of the story, so all the talk of retcons and indignation at the portrayal of certain events (or worse still *interpertations* of portrayals) grates somewhat. I can’t believe that at this point in the series, these stories and the actions within them do not happen without collective and editorial oversight- they’ll all feed into other stories, brutal deaths don’t just happen on the whim of one author and ambiguities exist for reasons.

 

I will say that

the events with Olly on page 378 made me put the book down with a massive grin on my face at how audacious and perfect they were; in fact the last time that I did that was when reading Fear to Tread when I clocked who Ol actually was, so I’m clearly a sucker for this storyline. And I do think they are the same character, now dead at Angron’s hands, ready to resawn at the correct point for John’s mission. Though, fittingly, perhaps, the lone grenadir, pictured, doesn’t have a sakho on...

. Relatedly, I hope that Hari wasn’t named for the contemporary journalist, Johan because I think he’s a (rude word) but also because it would be a little too on-the-nose, but I couldn’t help picture him every time he was named.

 

Even though I knew how the story would pan out, while reading the tension and peril was suitably built up and I did feel that it was conceivable that things would go differently, especially during the last 100 pages or so- and since we know how the series will end, that, perhaps, is the biggest testament to how good this book is. I liked The First Wall for showing us the minutiae and scale away from the main events, but I really appreciated the tight focus that this book gave us.

 

And, finally, in terms of the overall plot speculation-

is the threat of the bio-weapon, capable of wiping out all of the genehanced going to be what causes Horus to lower his shields- preventing the certain death of his Sons by facing his father directly?

[StrangerOrders]

 

Horus Lupercal by Gav Thorpe coming right up

WHile he wouldn't be my first pick, i wouldn't mind that if it was as solid as his Lorgar effort. One of the better Primarchs books imo.

 

Whistles awkwardly in generally liking the Primarch series more than most HH books.

 

Thorpe would be terrible for Lupercal, because the sort of story he does well doesnt jive with Horus.

 

Thorpe is really good at going for the weird and the grand. Its why I dearly love his Eldar stuff.

 

But almost everything wrong with what has been done with Horus is because of random weird stuff. Its literally lampshaded in this book to death.

 

My personal picks would be 1. Abnett, 2. French, 3. Wraight, 4. Literally anyone but McNeill. 

 

I honestly think Reynolds would do it well, because even his half-assed efforts like Battle book excels at making distinct characters. Fulgrim: The Palatine Phoenix is literally my favorite work in the setting and the Fabius Bile books are masterpieces. He is also pretty unique in seeming to religiously research anything that will come up in his works and to actively utilize and build on FW rather than forgetting it exists.

 

He excels at making the trope-y nuanced.

 

I'd say Haley might do a good job if you can CTRL+Del most of HH from his brain. He is really good when given a sandbox, but Wolfsbane and L&tD taught me that he is such a team player and respectful of the other writers that he won't even go against their dumber ideas.

 

To quote a certain HBO Roman, 'That man makes a vice out of loyalty'.

 

If I had one wish though, it would be Abnett.

 

 

Do I want to comment on the thread more than the book? Kind of; certainly it felt like it took as long to read. Some folk sure are keen to spend a lot of time and energy typing about what they don’t like about a book that they hadn’t actually read. Other folk made some fantastic points about the actual text; even though I split my reading of this thread over three (3!) calendar days,I still ran out of’likes’ and haven’t acknowledged all of the points I’d have liked to in that way...

 

It took me a long time to actually get into this book, I think partially that was due to the weightiness of the actual book, and partially due to my personal circumstances (I first tried reading it the day after the UK went into lockdown and I’d lost one of my dogs)- after a fortnight of trying the first ten pages over and over and carting the book from room to room, I gave up and read some other things instead. I’m glad that I took my time and dove into this in the right frame of mind- it’s an absolutely fantastic book, and one that is well worth savouring.

 

It’s really Dan at his very best- the first chapter proper feels like Stienbeck’s WW2 writing, or the lighter parts of Heller- the device of individual using their (former?) regiments as an integral part of their names and how quickly the practice spread is the sort of colour that sets hiswriting apart.

 

The cast of characters is, as noted elsewhere, broad but not unwieldy and hopefully hits the happy medium between all-Astartes-all-the-time and showing the full scope of the conflict that different readers seem to want; he is upfront in his afterword about wanting to have a tonal shift between perspectives and he certainly achieves that.

 

I’d echo the earlier point that the HH series of books should take primacy over earlier, much briefer telling of the story, so all the talk of retcons and indignation at the portrayal of certain events (or worse still *interpertations* of portrayals) grates somewhat. I can’t believe that at this point in the series, these stories and the actions within them do not happen without collective and editorial oversight- they’ll all feed into other stories, brutal deaths don’t just happen on the whim of one author and ambiguities exist for reasons.

 

I will say that

the events with Olly on page 378 made me put the book down with a massive grin on my face at how audacious and perfect they were; in fact the last time that I did that was when reading Fear to Tread when I clocked who Ol actually was, so I’m clearly a sucker for this storyline. And I do think they are the same character, now dead at Angron’s hands, ready to resawn at the correct point for John’s mission. Though, fittingly, perhaps, the lone grenadir, pictured, doesn’t have a sakho on...

. Relatedly, I hope that Hari wasn’t named for the contemporary journalist, Johan because I think he’s a (rude word) but also because it would be a little too on-the-nose, but I couldn’t help picture him every time he was named.

 

Even though I knew how the story would pan out, while reading the tension and peril was suitably built up and I did feel that it was conceivable that things would go differently, especially during the last 100 pages or so- and since we know how the series will end, that, perhaps, is the biggest testament to how good this book is. I liked The First Wall for showing us the minutiae and scale away from the main events, but I really appreciated the tight focus that this book gave us.

 

And, finally, in terms of the overall plot speculation-

is the threat of the bio-weapon, capable of wiping out all of the genehanced going to be what causes Horus to lower his shields- preventing the certain death of his Sons by facing his father directly?

When you tease like that, I'm left very much wanting to hear a more in-depth review of the book from you.

 

Spoils us if you can!

 

Mostly curious on where you fall with regards to how Erda's relationship with the Emp is handled.

 

It strikes me as being one of the most weirdly friendly and nostalgic takes on him we have, she seems shockingly sympathetic of and fond of him. Especially given how strongly she believes her actions were correct.

 

Honestly, it comes across as even unnerving John a bit. I hope it isnt explained away as brainwashing by one of the more bone-headed writers, that sort of viewpoint being genuine seems to strike a cord with me.

 

It seems, idk, weirdly poignant in how beautiful and melancholic it is. Like she is both glad of their past and mournful of it at once but is paradoxically glad that it both happened and that she ended it.

 

Its disturbing that a science project by two immortal mad scientists seems like the only 40k relationship that struck me as weirdly sweet and poignant.

 

Actually, Id be happy to see more in-depth reviews from everyone that's read it. I've pretty much flooded this thread with my own thoughts sadly so I dont have much else to say, I'm kind of hungry for other PoVs on specific points.

Edited April 24, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[b1soul]

Regarding Erda...

 

She is unique as she's hinted to be the most powerful Perpetual other than the Emperor [Would this mean her power eclipses Malcador's? Not sure], although the Emperor is still by far the most powerful, a true outlying freak.

 

Point being...unlike Malcador, her fundamental views diverge from the Emperor's, so she might be the closest thing to an independent peer of the Emperor in the setting (discounting the Chaos Gods).

 

I think Abnett deliberately gave Erda a positive view of the Emperor to balance the more ruthless and inhuman depiction of the Emperor in MoM (we all know MoM doesn't try to give us a definitive portrayal of the Emperor, so it makes sense that Abnett is now giving us how a peer/close-to-peer views the Emperor). It's good to be reminded the Emperor is capable of charisma and charm when dealing with some folks.

[Marshal Rohr]

Who are we waiting for? Horus, Mortarion, Dorn, Sanguinius, and Alpharius?

[Kelborn]

Why are we wishthinking about the Primarch novels and especially the Horus one in the Saturnine thread?

 

There's an old Primarch series thread. Old but gold. ;)

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Would someone please talk about

what exactly Loken did with Rubios sword?  Is there any psychic tid bits?  Also would love to know who Loken an Garo work for?  Assuming its Dorn, yet curious if Malcador is pullin strings.

[DarkChaplain]

The only sword Loken took from Rubio is his Ultramarines standard issue Gladius. Y'know, the memento Rubio was allowed to keep after being recruited, but left behind when really cutting loose and becoming a Grey Knight. There's no psychic anything going on, it's just a plain old Legionary Gladius of the XIIIth

[StrangerOrders]

The only sword Loken took from Rubio is his Ultramarines standard issue Gladius. Y'know, the memento Rubio was allowed to keep after being recruited, but left behind when really cutting loose and becoming a Grey Knight. There's no psychic anything going on, it's just a plain old Legionary Gladius of the XIIIth

Changed actually.

 

Loken uses Rubio's inert force sword (which is a gladius) and his old chainsword.

 

Interestingly, he seems to somehow trigger its Force effect when he impales Tormageddon with it.

 

He then adds Aximands sword to his pile. Its lampshaded that he seems to be building up a collection.

 

Its been a Force Sword for a while too, they even carried it over to his FW model.

Edited May 1, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[DarkChaplain]

another retcon, huh? I'm tired of them. now a standard issue Gladius is suddenly force-reactive.

 

 

 

Rubio smiled slightly as he held the blade in his hand. It was a gladius, the traditional sword-form of the Ultramarines, and upon it in a most subtle manner was the shape of the revered Ultima. He realised that Garro was allowing him to retain one small token of the Legion he was giving up.

 

Especially dumb as they had all the opportunity in the world to retcon this in Garro: Weapon of Fate, at least. Then again, it's not like they put much effort into that fix-up novel in the first place, or that Swallow's been following established set-ups and character development in The Buried Dagger either.

[StrangerOrders]

another retcon, huh? I'm tired of them. now a standard issue Gladius is suddenly force-reactive.

 

 

 

Rubio smiled slightly as he held the blade in his hand. It was a gladius, the traditional sword-form of the Ultramarines, and upon it in a most subtle manner was the shape of the revered Ultima. He realised that Garro was allowing him to retain one small token of the Legion he was giving up.

 

Especially dumb as they had all the opportunity in the world to retcon this in Garro: Weapon of Fate, at least. Then again, it's not like they put much effort into that fix-up novel in the first place, or that Swallow's been following established set-ups and character development in The Buried Dagger either.

Well, it is specifically noted to be a gladius.

 

At no point does it say that it isnt a force weapon. Moreso since the FW model IS a Gladius and a Force Sword. There is no contradiction there.

 

Its also clearly generating a Force aura on the Sword of Truth cover too.

Edited May 1, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I've had some time to reread the Buried Dagger and found this... On pg 48, opposite the picture of Rubio.

 

 

"His bolt pistol hung holstered at his belt, an his free hand rested on the gold Ultima forged at the hilt of his force sword, the weapon quite for the moment in its scabbard'

 

The drawing of Rubio actually shows him resting his hands on the hilt.

 

 

This is from a resent post in the thread for the Buried Dagger.