Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett

[caladancid]

Its not about it being a cosmic level retcon.

 

Its about Abnett pushing his own creations into the setting, when they didnt need to exist in the first place.

 

For fans of the Abnett-verse, its great. For the rest of us, its just another example of him doing whatever he wants.

There only are two types of people. Fans of the Abnett-verse, and all the others who won’t accept their true overlord.

[DukeLeto69]

 

Its not about it being a cosmic level retcon.

 

Its about Abnett pushing his own creations into the setting, when they didnt need to exist in the first place.

 

For fans of the Abnett-verse, its great. For the rest of us, its just another example of him doing whatever he wants.

There only are two types of people. Fans of the Abnett-verse, and all the others who won’t accept their true overlord.

Lol. Scribe is repeatedly on records as distinctly disliking Abnett. You won’t change their mind ever!

 

Personally I don’t get this “lore is inviolable” pov. It assumes the lore was established and unchanging for 30+ years based on mere nuggests (often in-universe povs) of info and then a card game that evolved into the Visions books that are inconsistent at best and contradictory at worst. GW played the whole “legends and myths” thing with it rather than carefully detailed historical timeline.

 

The implication from some seems to be that Abnett is a loose cannon doing whatever he wants which completely ignores that GW/BL obviously like the ideas Abnett has suggested and that when the BL book series is complete THAT (and Forgeworld BB) becomes THE definitive version of the lore like it or not superseding all that came before.

 

So the perpetuals ARE a thing in the lore and that is simply that!

 

Also this perception of Abnett completely ignores how much of the lore he has directly influenced or set up himself! He wrote the first book! He established Horus, Loken etc as characters. He breathed life into the culture of the SoH.

 

Most importantly (to me) he gave the HH a feel/flavour of it’s own that set it apart from W40k. I think over time to some extent this different “flavour” has been lost and the HH started to feel increasingly like the rest of 40k.

Edited August 3, 2020 by DukeLeto69

[b1soul]

Based on the actual text in Saturnine, Erda had a hand in the Scattering (assuming she isn't delusional or lying)...the how of it and the extent to which she brought it about are deliberately vague

[bluntblade]

Personally I don’t get this “lore is inviolable” pov.

Let's not go there again.

Edited August 3, 2020 by bluntblade

[Marshal Rohr]

My take is firmly that Perpetuals are modern day ‘shamans’ and Erda scattered the Primarchs as part of the Chaos Gods plan (wittingly or unwittingly).

[nagashnee]

 

 

Its not about it being a cosmic level retcon.

 

Its about Abnett pushing his own creations into the setting, when they didnt need to exist in the first place.

 

For fans of the Abnett-verse, its great. For the rest of us, its just another example of him doing whatever he wants.

There only are two types of people. Fans of the Abnett-verse, and all the others who won’t accept their true overlord.

Lol. Scribe is repeatedly on records as distinctly disliking Abnett. You won’t change their mind ever!

 

Personally I don’t get this “lore is inviolable” pov. It assumes the lore was established and unchanging for 30+ years based on mere nuggests (often in-universe povs) of info and then a card game that evolved into the Visions books that are inconsistent at best and contradictory at worst. GW played the whole “legends and myths” thing with it rather than carefully detailed historical timeline.

 

The implication from some seems to be that Abnett is a loose cannon doing whatever he wants which completely ignores that GW/BL obviously like the ideas Abnett has suggested and that when the BL book series is complete THAT (and Forgeworld BB) becomes THE definitive version of the lore like it or not superseding all that came before.

 

So the perpetuals ARE a thing in the lore and that is simply that!

 

Also this perception of Abnett completely ignores how much of the lore he has directly influenced or set up himself! He wrote the first book! He established Horus, Loken etc as characters. He breathed life into the culture of the SoH.

 

Most importantly (to me) he gave the HH a feel/flavour of it’s own that set it apart from W40k. I think over time to some extent this different “flavour” has been lost and the HH started to feel increasingly like the rest of 40k.

 

 

Until the next retcon, the issue with having nothing set in stone and making precedents of changing anything/everything is that from then on nothing CAN be set in stone and anything/everything can be changed at any moment. Writing a series on pre existing events to make the lore for the series after the series is mostly complete is...a some kind of idea. Mayhaps Disney is hiring for the next round of Star Wars films. 

[caladancid]

@nagashnee

 

Whatchoo talkin bout.

Edited August 3, 2020 by caladancid

[Indefragable]

I have 6h24m54s left in the audiobook of this.

 

To quote Samuel L. Jackson:

 

“Hold onto your butts.”

[DukeLeto69]

 

 

 

 

Its not about it being a cosmic level retcon.

 

Its about Abnett pushing his own creations into the setting, when they didnt need to exist in the first place.

 

For fans of the Abnett-verse, its great. For the rest of us, its just another example of him doing whatever he wants.

There only are two types of people. Fans of the Abnett-verse, and all the others who won’t accept their true overlord.

Lol. Scribe is repeatedly on records as distinctly disliking Abnett. You won’t change their mind ever!

 

Personally I don’t get this “lore is inviolable” pov. It assumes the lore was established and unchanging for 30+ years based on mere nuggests (often in-universe povs) of info and then a card game that evolved into the Visions books that are inconsistent at best and contradictory at worst. GW played the whole “legends and myths” thing with it rather than carefully detailed historical timeline.

 

The implication from some seems to be that Abnett is a loose cannon doing whatever he wants which completely ignores that GW/BL obviously like the ideas Abnett has suggested and that when the BL book series is complete THAT (and Forgeworld BB) becomes THE definitive version of the lore like it or not superseding all that came before.

 

So the perpetuals ARE a thing in the lore and that is simply that!

 

Also this perception of Abnett completely ignores how much of the lore he has directly influenced or set up himself! He wrote the first book! He established Horus, Loken etc as characters. He breathed life into the culture of the SoH.

 

Most importantly (to me) he gave the HH a feel/flavour of it’s own that set it apart from W40k. I think over time to some extent this different “flavour” has been lost and the HH started to feel increasingly like the rest of 40k.

Until the next retcon, the issue with having nothing set in stone and making precedents of changing anything/everything is that from then on nothing CAN be set in stone and anything/everything can be changed at any moment. Writing a series on pre existing events to make the lore for the series after the series is mostly complete is...a some kind of idea. Mayhaps Disney is hiring for the next round of Star Wars films.

Huh?

 

The whole point of my post was that the lore surrounding the HH (ergo origins of 40k setting) has NEVER been defined in detail. It was sketchy and contradictory. It was approached from a legends & myths pov (ie Trojan Wars) as opposed to a detailed historic timeline understanding (WW2). So nothing that came before the BL HH books or FW BB was cast in stone. Going forward we have far more solid foundations for the HH so far less likely to be changed.

[DarkChaplain]

As for myself, I like Abnett's works, for the most part. But the ones I like best are the ones that follow his own stuff, not the collaborative books.

 

I'll just reiterate a point I've posed over the past years regarding Abnett wrapping up the Siege: I believe Abnett to be a great ideas man, a firestarter, but not somebody who is easy to cooperate with, or who really bothers with adhering to stuff other authors have previously developed or picked up in between. He puts a lot of his own personal flair into things, which is good when he's the one building the foundation, like with Horus Rising, Legion, Prospero Burns or Know No Fear (though arguably, McNeill wrote Rules of Engagement for Age of Darkness, before KNF, but teasing Imperium Secundus). He doesn't do nearly as well tying things together, though, like with The Unremembered Empire. That book, for example, spent more time introducing a new Perpetual dudebro to the scene and turning Vulkan into a completely out of character Hulk than it did with the subject matter itself, or indeed, the premise we get from the cover.

 

Saturnine is, in that sense, a prime example, and those aspects are my problem with it so far. His prose is great, the mood is good, the ideas on the whole work well enough, but the "Abnettisms" shine through even early on. It's that mismatch that's frustrating, the weird phrasing quirks (non-vi, in this instance, like he's doing another I Am Alpharius or Theoretical/Practical for the Fists), the out of character swearing, the dialing back characters to where he left them, rather than where they journeyed since.

 

It's not necessarily bad that Keeler is snarky, but if you were telling me she's a new character with a similar set of beliefs, or an old lover of Sindermann from his Iterator days, I'd believe that, too. And Valdor is suddenly very amicable where before he was usually depicted as having the shaft of his special super spear up his arse. And Loken was never really the type to do snarky, weirdly detached one-liners the way he does here.

I enjoy the callbacks, like the "what are you really afraid of" from The Lightning Tower. I like the idea of Interrogators being meant to re-establish records of history. I like that Dorn is doubtful on the roof, or that Sindermann has a struggle of finding his purpose. I like that Jaghatai is no-nonsense. But there are also a bunch of aspects that just bend the rules into directions where I have to wonder why it's suddenly this way and not like it has been the last 5 times, especially when the last time was mere weeks ago in the chronology.

 

Had an author like Kyme, McNeill, Gav, Haley, Annandale or whoever "rebooted" characters or thrown in quirks this late into the series, there'd have been a lot more open criticism of it. Heck, we have so many arguments about Abaddon's different versions alone on here. I believe that's what ticks me off, actually. It's great that this book is beloved and all, but it's almost like some folks consider it flawless, when the flaws are worn up the author's sleeve, and kind of his calling card.

[b1soul]

I actually think a lot of BL authours don't feel bound to follow other BL authours' work. That's kinda the whole everything is canon and nothing is canon policy of the same character being written in multiple ways across multiple books by multiple authours. It's not just Abnett.

 

I agree his quirks stand out more though, because frankly, he has a more distinct authourial voice than most of his colleagues, even among the BL elite. I'll have a harder time telling apart Wraight and ADB's prose (both of which are excellent)...than telling either apart from Abnett's. The non-vi, the murdermake, the wet-leopard growling are strikingly Abnettian. That said, I think the ADB quirks are there as well, just a bit more subtle (insincere smiles, oxymorons like vicious gentleness, the use of certain terms like achingly, rich etc. abound).

 

I think Abnett probably has less hesitation introducing new ideas? But I don't think his ideas contradict any of these established lore. Erda is a prime example of this. We have almost no details about the Scattering. OK, so a female immortal was involved to some extent...we also know Chaos was involved to some extent. Why is any of this not kosher so to speak? This strikes me as similar to the claims that Master of Mankind retconned the Emperor's fatherly nature.

 

Frankly, my fave authour of the lot recently messed up the lore worse than Abnett ever has I think. FW clearly has Thunder Warriors and early Terrain Legionaries cooperating during late Unification campaigns...lo and behold we get the Valdor book.

[Sandlemad]

 

I enjoy the callbacks, like the "what are you really afraid of" from The Lightning Tower. I like the idea of Interrogators being meant to re-establish records of history. I like that Dorn is doubtful on the roof, or that Sindermann has a struggle of finding his purpose. I like that Jaghatai is no-nonsense. But there are also a bunch of aspects that just bend the rules into directions where I have to wonder why it's suddenly this way and not like it has been the last 5 times, especially when the last time was mere weeks ago in the chronology.

 

Interestingly I went into this prepared to find that he had completely rewritten... everything... but while there were a good few things which didn't line up for me (the significant characterisations more than the nitpicky details and ephemera), I was surprised to see that that there clearly had been some effort on Abnett's part to connect some things to other authors' work.

 

Some of the conversations between Dorn and Valdor show an awareness of what Wraight did in 'Magesterium' with his Dorn/Valdor scene and possibly ADB's in Master of Mankind, albeit without meaningfully incorporating that into any serious way. Or, better, the discussions with and around Shiban Khan show an awareness of his arc and relationship with Torghun Khan through Wraight's entire White Scars series, largely making an easter egg of it: the uninformed murmurings about Shiban's 'no backward step' being a suitably blunt and barbaric Chorgoian creed and then the rejoinder that it was Terran, actually.

 

There were other more broadly written bits that felt more like Abnett was simply referencing something from a meeting or a précis - some of the bits with Land or Zephon, maybe Endryd Harr too, and the relationship between Dorn and Sigismund - but those were elements where I felt like Abnett knew what he was referring to quite well but did not execute it in a fashion that was terribly consistent with what had come before.

 

That said I'd side with Lucerne in feeling comfortable ignoring Haley and Thorpe's SoT efforts.

[mc warhammer]

trying hard to not be that person i hate (commenting on a novel i haven't read, though i've almost pushed through "the first wall" so i'll be on saturnine by next week) but a couple of things come to mind reading this:

 

on "swearing". i've noted that other authors do it with marines and primarchs, they just don't pronounce it in the dialogue. they'll write "so and so swore" or "swearing, he spat on the ground and lifted his big, big sword". granted, 'swearing' in those cases is ambiguous; it could be an oath or naughty words. i lean towards naughty words.

 

"abnettisms". every writer has quirks. whether it's the way they write dialogue or certain repetitive images (adb loves to describe the sound of power armour, reynolds always has his characters hover hands over their weapons during conversation. almost every author has done the "a weird sound came from the dreadnought that could have been laughter or crying nobody was sure" bit) and i abnett isn't immune.

 

but terms like "practical/theoretical", "the rout", "the 4 humours" etc aren't really authorial quirks...they're offerings to world building terminology. i get that introducing them mid-way through an arc is not nearly as smooth as at the top (and perhaps it would be nice if there was some sort of memo sent out to all the authors to seed those words into their works but that isn't abnett's sole responsibility) but do you then, as an author/creative/artist, hold back if you're writing book #4 in a series? do you not throw in every idea that could elevate the story just because nobody else has? is the aim cohesion or creating the best bit of art you can with the page count given you?

[Scribe]

I don't have issue with the injection of culture, which stuff like 'the rout' would fall under.

 

Stuff like that rarely changes the setting, it adds to it.

 

Perpetuals are not that. Having Erda claim to be the one to scatter them isn't that. The weird repeat of some story beats between Valdor and this, are not that.

 

Abnett could do all the stuff he does for genuine world building, without some of the other stuff and still be as great as some people think he is.

[b1soul]

I think Erda is a step toward fleshing out the Scattering and the agents/forces behind it. It doesn't contradict the vague references or limited flashbacks we've had so far.

 

We know the Emperor must've protected/warded the Primarch incubation chamber like nothing else...did Chaos just get off the couch and decide to overpower the Emperor's strongest defenses? If yes, that in itself raises some serious questions about what Chaos can or cannot do.

 

I suspect Chaos would need a witting or unwitting agent to help them breach defenses of that strength. Chaos had Magnus' Folly which helped to breach the Imperial Webway. I don't think something like Erda's Madness would be out of whack with what little lore we have on point.

 

Assuming the Scattering was not intended by the Empetor, it also has the potential to cast the Emperor in a more merciful light. He went pretty light on Magnus considering how Erda probably screwed Him over in similar fashion before. Erda barely got a slap on the wrist. Magnus was ordered by the Emperor only to be arrested. To me, Erda is probably the type to think she is using Chaos rather than the other way around (i.e. the same type as the Emperor).

[Scribe]

Yes, of course it can be justified.

 

Why does it have to be one of Abnetts pet ideas?

 

That's my problem. They didn't even exist. The whole arc is spun from nothing, and it's his.

 

It will never sit well with me, and he's got the last book...

[mc warhammer]

on the note of adding/expanding the in-universe fiction ....lot of that comes down to where a reader stands

 

the horus heresy lore was set prior to the release of horus heresy series in 2006 and any additions to it are unwelcome/retcons/inferior/sheer hubris

 

the horus heresy lore is being set now by the games workshop after horus rising, the artbooks and the black books and anything being written is the first true exploration of the lore

 

personally, i haven't found too many new additions that can't be squared away with older interpretations.

[Lucerne]

The HH is full on pointless D-plots at this point. At least the Abnettverse D-plots are by someone who might pull it off and can write- remember when Buried Dagger wasted a third of the book about the fall of the Death Guard on Malcador and assorted nonsense?

[mc warhammer]

Yes, of course it can be justified.

 

Why does it have to be one of Abnetts pet ideas?

 

That's my problem. They didn't even exist. The whole arc is spun from nothing, and it's his.

 

It will never sit well with me, and he's got the last book...

not going to argue anyone's personal tastes, 'cos they're all equally valid but i'm curious: how do you feel about the non abnett additions? the daemon sword that turns fulgrim? arvada + magnus shard = janus? dorn killing alpharius? amar astartes? etc etc

Edited August 4, 2020 by mc warhammer

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

It's not really about potential mismatches with other books, or additions, retcons or the quality of his prose.

There simply is no other author writing the Heresy whose additions and changes are so... distinct to himself.

 

 

Dan can't help being just that good   .........

 

Everyone, can we please get back to the subject at hand...... Saturnine

Edited August 4, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[DarkChaplain]

....and we all know that McNeill gets plenty of hell for having those on-the-nose asian characters and themes, which he also dug deeper ever since Yasu Nagasena entered the stage. He's more of a Samurai/Bushi than Ninja, though. Completely different thing.

 

One thing I forgot to comment on earlier regarding Abnett's colloquialisms in Saturnine is one character's deadpan reply of "Duh". I had to do a double take on the audiobook. It just felt incredibly unfitting to me. Oll still using "okay" and teaching others what it means was on the nose too, but at least he's ancient.

 

By the way, there's about a dozen instances of just using the censored 4-letter word for excrement within the first two chapters (and prologue) of Saturnine, including the -storm variant. There's about 60 total by my counting throughout the book - just words based on that single swear, including the bullish version. Perturabo is being called Lord of [it] as well. Sometimes you get 3-5 instances within a single page. It's not the only swear, either. Small mercies, though, in that Dan didn't use the other four letter swear for procreative endeavours at all - thankfully.

Just figured I'd point out just how prevalent the explicit swearing actually is in this one. I don't think it we have this many in the rest of the series so far combined.

 

I'd also like to point out thatI'm not against swearwords per se. They have their time and place for sure. Hells, I got weird looks by an ex's family because of how casually I'd swear while in the states. But it's not something that really suits 40k in my opinion. There are variants like frak, and bastard is used in heated moments to provide emphasis (like calling Horus the Emperor's "brightest bastard son" in one work), but the simplistic ones just take me out of the experience, in particular when they happen over and over in bursts.

 

@DukeLeto

I'd agree with you. There's a difference between outright changes, additions and contextualizations. Changes work when they are believably presented and don't outright contradict material published in the same sandbox (by which I mean "current" fluff, rather than the old Index Astartes stuff). Adding context to aspects we knew about, or clarifying old contradictions (like Schrödinger's Vulkan, being both dead and discussing the Codex Astartes with Roboute after the Siege) is usually pretty valuable, if not always of good quality narratively. And additions like Imperium Secundus or the sudden cultish, brutish backstabbing of the Sons of Horus in Vengeful Spirit? Well... They're divisive, to say the least, as far as major additions go. But there are innumerable smaller additions out of necessity, most notably 90% of the characters featured throughout, which are net benefits to the series.

Edited August 4, 2020 by DarkChaplain

[DukeLeto69]

Yeah I kind of prefer it if the transhumans were, well less human, in their speech patterns and use of explicit words.

[Kelborn]

If I may throw in my two cents:

 

No one's asking to drop the changes by authors discussion.

Quite the opposite. Go on and continue as a good conversation is always something we (the mod team as well as regular participants) aspire.

 

I'd recommend to do that in a separate thread, though. It's only linked with Saturnine by the changes Abnett did in this story. It does not feature a comparison with what McNeil did or how on the nose certain characters are throughout the HH.

 

Further, this thread is about discussing stuff happening in the novel itself. That we can agree upon, eh?

 

A thread about authors and their impact on the HH series itself might be an interesting one as we're drawing closer to it's conclusion, come to think of it.

[Lucerne]

The Alpha Legion definitely needed a loss. They'd come far too close to resembling their meme-portrayal, where anything bad happening to them is just "all according to plan".

You say this but they barely had any screentime or actual proper Legion encounters to boot that didn't end with them being trounced! Deliverance Lost was technically a win in that they achieved their objectives and withdrew, Paramar was a meatgrinder against a handful of Iron Warriors, the Space Wolves and White Scars got away/inflicted losses in their encounters, Yarant was retconned to no longer be an AL victory at all so much as "they were also there"...

 

Seriously, they didn't need a loss at all- if anything we need more unambiguous wins for them. Their loss was well written but the hate was based on memes and fandom overthinking things rather than the reality of the lore.

 

On the subject of Saturnine, while the traitors jobbed badly here (Can't say Abnett's Emperor's Children were particularly memorable), it at least happened in the context of a failed gambit during a Siege which we know is going to get worse for the loyalists. I do hope Abnett remembers to set up some traitor characters for the SoH since he just cleared the board though.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Lucerne

[bluntblade]

One criticism I would level is that the Newborn on both sides seem to be in too senior positions at points. I prefer how French used them, with their formations being very much separate from the slow-cooked older generation, than for senior commanders to have a lieutenant who's only been kicking around for a year or so. If such an officer has risen to prominence, I'd like a little nod to that impressive ascent.