Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett

[Lucerne]

One criticism I would level is that the Newborn on both sides seem to be in too senior positions at points. I prefer how French used them, with their formations being very much separate from the slow-cooked older generation, than for senior commanders to have a lieutenant who's only been kicking around for a year or so. If such an officer has risen to prominence, I'd like a little nod to that impressive ascent.

I'm okay with Newborns being overpromoted due to casualties.

[bluntblade]

 

One criticism I would level is that the Newborn on both sides seem to be in too senior positions at points. I prefer how French used them, with their formations being very much separate from the slow-cooked older generation, than for senior commanders to have a lieutenant who's only been kicking around for a year or so. If such an officer has risen to prominence, I'd like a little nod to that impressive ascent.

I'm okay with Newborns being overpromoted due to casualties.

 

But that itself isn't specified. It just feels like suddenly the Traitors are running out of vets, when I would have thought they'd be conserving the latter as in Solar War.

[StrangerOrders]

 

 

One criticism I would level is that the Newborn on both sides seem to be in too senior positions at points. I prefer how French used them, with their formations being very much separate from the slow-cooked older generation, than for senior commanders to have a lieutenant who's only been kicking around for a year or so. If such an officer has risen to prominence, I'd like a little nod to that impressive ascent.

I'm okay with Newborns being overpromoted due to casualties.

 

But that itself isn't specified. It just feels like suddenly the Traitors are running out of vets, when I would have thought they'd be conserving the latter as in Solar War.

 

Ngl, I feel like if the Carnal Host was still alive they'd be calling Dorn and Horus out for their BS given that both have more or less been reduced to adopting the tactics for newborn Astartes that they got executed for. 

 

Although I feel like this whole angle with Newborns is a nice summation of something FW has been building towards for a while and writers like Haley are big on, that the acceleration of the Ascension process is both dangerous and prone producing exceedingly diminishing returns.

 

I wonder if we will ever see Guilliman's post-Heresy Reforms put to page tbh, since it would be interesting to have him ruminate on this and over-corrected with the insane standards adopted Post-Heresy to avoid this stuff happening again. 

[bluntblade]

For me, it's just a detail which feels like it could've been handled more elegantly and thoughtfully.

[Moonreaper666]

Jennita Kroele implies/thinks that Xenos are part of the Lost and the Damned and are involve in the Siege of Terra. Is there any lore or any tidbit from other HH books about Chaos Xenos fighting for Horus?

 

It feels like with the endless hordes of Traitors it doesn't matter if Horus died since they could still overrun the entire Imperial Palace very quickly, angry BA-boys and Vulkan be damned. I find it hard to believe that Daemons haven't exterminated every Imperial citizen and soldier, even if there are hundreds of trillions of them, outside the Palace by the time of First Wall

 

Does anyone know how many Blackshields participated on both sides during the Siege?

[bluntblade]

Nope - there are beastmen, not aliens - nope - the whole point has always been that only Horus can forge any kind of meaningful unity among the forces of Chaos - and nope - no numbers. Edited August 5, 2020 by bluntblade

[rookie40K]

I’m a few chapters in on audio and can tell this is really well written. Excellent book so far. Not a fan of human stuff, yet Abnett managed to make the dialogue so damn good it’s really entertaining. Furthermore, Dorn is written in a way that makes him really likable. Horus Rising, Know No Fear, and now this, I think we’re in for an amazing book for the final novel.

[mc warhammer]

I’m a few chapters in on audio and can tell this is really well written. Excellent book so far. Not a fan of human stuff, yet Abnett managed to make the dialogue so damn good it’s really entertaining. Furthermore, Dorn is written in a way that makes him really likable. Horus Rising, Know No Fear, and now this, I think we’re in for an amazing book for the final novel.

 

i'm one chapter in myself.

 

i've just come off the back of "the first wall", didn't hate it or love it...just felt like standard black library fare. but already in "saturnine", dorn's conversation with sindermann had more depth, humanity and pathos than his confrontation with perturabo in tFW (which more or less boiled down to "you suck, brother" "no i do not, in fact suck, you are the one who sucks, brother.")

 

somehow, the book has made the terror of the war for the human imperials hit home in a way that the other seige books didn't. it might be showing us the horror through their eyes rather than just telling us the baseline humans are horrified.

 

and maybe because i was ready for it, but the primarchs saying naughty words hasn't bothered me (yet).

Edited August 8, 2020 by mc warhammer

[mc warhammer]

perturbo excited and happy planning the seige makes perfect sense

[LJF]

Wasnt very impressed with this one, easily Abnetts weakest HH novel so far. It may appear more substantial because of how chunky it is and the amount of pointless characters and storylines nobody cares about but ultimatelly it follows exactly the same beats as every single HH novel these days: heroic loyalists consistently beat the absolute out of traitors yet somehow traitors still have enough bodies to throw away in the next book so the series may continue. Many common themes like this in the series for years now, Saturnine could have been more original but it wasnt.

 

Id still give it 6/10 because the prose was solid but this was nowhere near Horus Rising or Know no Fear. 

Edited August 8, 2020 by LJF

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

After reading the relevant parts of the opening trilogy, Little Horus, Vengeful Spirit, I've some further insite on Loken and his swords.

It seems Mourn-it-all is a Deamon forged poison blade. Horus resorted it in the war for Molech, with the help of the Red Angel. McNeill highlights that the deamon Blood Angle, has the double helix of the apothecary on his chest. Later when Loken is cut deeply by the blade, he feels like he was poisoned. The same blade cuts off Verrans arm. Perhaps thats what leads to his possession in the Buried Dagger... What ever grade of power sword it was before it lost its edge to a Medusan blade, its now something more.

"Aximand gripped the leather-wound hilt of the double-edged sword, holding the blade out before him and feeling a last part of him he'd not even appreciated was missing now restored. The fuller was thick with fresh etchings that fluttered in the daemon-things firefight. Aximand felt lethal potency within the blade that had nothing to do with its powered edges."
PG 87, Vengeful Spirit.

Now what do we suppose happens to a blood brother decapitated by another, with a active force sword, one who is wielding a daemon sword? One who killed a blood brother with the sword yet to become daemon forged?

Comming from a guy who said Loken was a psyker, back when he was not even proven to survive Istavaan III.... I say lil Horus, now resides in Mourn-it-all.

What dose it mean that Garvil, has not one, but two, blades of POWAH? Its not enough to have a force sword of a Greynight founding Grandmaster. No, he has a Horus/ Red Angel, Deamon forged blade also.... The guy who was the best of his Legion with a blade, who I say, uses the psychic ability, "Presience". Who is, shall we say, motivated. If he gets some training from Malcador, who allready offered to 'open his mind', watch out.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Lord Lorne Walkier

[Indefragable]

Legiones Astartes being named after a chick named Astartes, and Land Raiders/Speeders being named after Arkhan Land is weak sauce. But on the scale of 1-Egregious for me it’s like a 4 b/c at the end of the day it doesn’t change all that much and is no more cringeworthy than so many other elements of the setting. It’s a shrug and don’t care at this point from me.

 

**********

Still working my way through the audiobook; haven’t had the nice long listening/hobbying spells I’d like so the last 1/5 has been chopped up for me.

 

The terrax drills have just reached the walls....

[Gore Crow]

Just finished it yesterday; looking forward to it for a while and it didn't disappoint but hoo boy I could have used a map.

[Bobss]

It's great to see people in other communities loving this book now that it's widely available and finally more than a just lengthy spoiler thread on Reddit

 

I think my favourite element of Saturnine is how it is the first book to actually live up to (and in many ways surpass) my preconceptions of the classic Siege of Terra from all of the older source material. I had nothing going into The Solar War, and ended up loving it (I also consider John French to be the perfect pick for that novel considering his devil-in-the-detail Forge World background) but Saturnine has that raw, undiluted Siege of Terra feeling with Space Marines of all Legions punching each other up on top of battlements, underneath battlements, behind battlements and in front of battlements. It's like the Siege of Carthage or Jerusalem or Constantinople with bolters and plasma blasts. The previous two books, while still pretty good considering who penned them, felt like glorified battle reports, or a giant Horus Heresy game a few guys and gals held in their garage featuring ten tons of painted resin. Saturnine meanwhile feels like walking through a huge art gallery of oil paintings with depictions of ferocious Blood Angels knee-deep in blood or stout Imperial Fists fighting with broken swords like Spartans. If The Solar War was hard(ish) sci-fi, The Lost and the Damned and The First Wall were tabletop battle reports, then Saturnine is the mythological account of the Siege that hearkens back to the series' origins in Horus Rising while paying its due to the old Billy King stories, Collected Visions and sheafs of Codex entries

Edited August 11, 2020 by Bobss

[Roomsky]

Haley absolutely seems lovely, based on his interviews, as do most of the BL staff. I hope no one takes things like my vitriol for Kyme’s work as an attack on him personally. Have you seen the man’s Siege interview? I love his excitement for the setting.

 

Anywho, about to start my second read-through of this behemoth. Excited to dive into what I might have missed the first time, and get out a proper review.

[Fedor]

So has consensus finally been reached that Abnett has achieved redemption for the sins of Fell Cargo?

Edited August 11, 2020 by Fedor

[Moonreaper666]

I will say this. Despite reading all the spoilers here I decided to buy this Ebook a few weeks ago...

 

...and I still enjoy it. I enjoy it somewhat more than Solar War

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

This thread will be locked for 72 hours for a much needed cleaning of off topics posts. No posts will be deleted, simply hidden. I'll hold off for 24 hours before I start hiding posts. This should should give time for fraters to review and take note of any tangential subjects of interest.

 

The purpose of this action is to refocus the conversation to the main subject of this thread and not to stifle conversation. If there are tangential subjects you wish to pursue, please do so, but create a new thread within which to discuss them. If there are posts here (or in any thread) you wished moved to a new subject thread, just ask and I will be happy to move it for you. In the mean time, take time to relax and refocus. If you have any questions or concerns you can PM me and I will be very willing to address them.

 

This lockdown is extended through Sunday the 16th.

 

=][=

Edited August 15, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

Okay, we're back on.

I've left a few of the off topic posts open in case anyone wants to pursue separate threads.

 

=][=

[Moonreaper666]

I like the SoH veterans more in Solar War than in this book. Even if they ambush and kill 50 SoH vets the kill-teams should have taken casualties with every ambush even if it was little by little, enough for Dorn to claim a victory while making it plausible

Aximand's 50 Marines should have killed at least 5-12 of the Blood Angels kill-team before going down. Tybalt's group should have killed two or three of Loken's Fists

SoH veterans, especially the best of the best, should never go down with a single bolter shot even at the head. At least two. Even the ones not wearing Terminator Armor should have access to Artificer Armor and Plasma Guns. They didn't fight like they were the best of the best but rather just above-average

How many Fists and Guardsmen were guarding the wall when Fulgrim and the EC attacked?

Sure over 10k EC die but they and Fulgrim should have killed thousands of Veteran IFs many of which in Terminator Armor! Especially since they were able to surprise attack the defenders thanks to the vehicle upgrades

It feels like the Traitor Primarchs are not being active that much when compared to the Loyalists fighting like crazy without rest

I will call BS in later novels if all the Traitor Primarchs, with Horus and Perturabo as exceptions, EACH don't reap their own death tolls! They should be decimating Loyalist Titans, Custode Terminators and veteran IF Terminators!

Fulgrim spared both Sigismund and Dorn by not fighting at full-power and going at the throat like when he later fought Guilliman

The fact Eidolon can keep up with a wounded Dorn even with support of others should trouble the Imperium. Just as Horus was empowered to the point he will beat the Emperor, Chaos has already started empowering a few champions to the level of Primarchs

Khârn, Abaddon and Zardu wished they had Eidolon aided them in First Wall against Dorn

Loken will be in the duel assisting Emperor and Olly with his psyker powers. He will utter the same words he said in the very first HH novel

Yeah, I agree the numbers on the Loyalist side ain't enough. Strange that there aren't any teenage and underage conscripts on both sides. The entire Imperial Palace should be filled with several Billion Conscripts

Daemons would have killed ever civilian outside the Palace anyways so the Emperor should have conscripted A LOT MORE. Give them autoguns, hunting rifles, axes and other archaic weapons. Suicide bombers like in Gaunt's Ghosts.

How many did the Emperor actually conscript in the Lost and Damned? I feel it wasn't enough. Very unrealistic to have Saturnine defended by 9k people versus the entire World Eaters Legion, the same Legion that killed everyone in Nuceria, millions of people, in just a few hours

Does anyone know the population of Terra and the rest of the Solar System at the start of the HH or Solar War? Feels like hundreds of Billions dying in Solar War alone is just a drop in a bucket compared to the local population

Edited August 17, 2020 by Moonreaper666

[DarkChaplain]

This thread being unlocked and bumped literally made me realize I still haven't finished this book. I used to be excited for the Siege, but these past few months, especially when it came to this book, I've found enthusiasm everywhere but on Siege-era Terra =/

[Fire Golem]

This thread being unlocked and bumped literally made me realize I still haven't finished this book. I used to be excited for the Siege, but these past few months, especially when it came to this book, I've found enthusiasm everywhere but on Siege-era Terra =/

That’s a shame. This book rekindled my passion for the Siege. 

[mc warhammer]

i'm still really early on it. i'm liking it more than the rest of the series (which isn't saying a lot), but it's yet to grab me.

[Noserenda]

Yeah its not perfect by any means but since Solar war the siege series has dipped pretty deep and Saturine rekindled my interest.

[apologist]

Devoured this over the course of two nights; a really enjoyable romp. I read and enjoyed The Solar War, then went straight to Saturnine. I'm sure I've missed some details in skipping the intervening novels, but the leap seemed to work well, feeling like connecting two nodal points.

 

Anyway, the main reason I wanted to comment was because of the sheer number of little nods, 'easter eggs' and treats Abnett scatters around the prose. Some of these made me gasp (inwardly, because c'mon), others got me fired up, and one in particular genuinely made me laugh out loud:

 

Leetu's (a fun character – I am assuming he's new for Saturnine and doesn't appear in any of the rest of the series?) name, taken from his armour's serial mark (LE2), is an easter egg of genius:

Edited August 17, 2020 by apologist