Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett

[Sandlemad]

Holy moly. Good catch.

[b1soul]

I like how Abnett likes to bend the rules of 40K withou in my view breaking them.

 

Leetu and the Erda business are great examples of that. Even his handling of Chaos and Daemons is quite novel. Keeps the setting from going stale.

[Scribe]

Leetu, is how tie in fiction makes a unique mark for itself, distinct from other fiction.

The rest of your comment..disagree.

I finished the last 200 pages, they did not redeem the first 330, at all.

I won't belabor the point any further, but I paid my $35 Canadian, and...for what?

There is exactly one good arc in the story.

That's it.

The book is a GOOD example of technical ability in crafting a plot from the wildly variable quality and content of the setting.

Perpetual
Blackshields
Knights Errant
Legions
Primarchs
Remembrancer/Interrogator

What exactly is the book even saying or doing?

One arc, in the whole of 541 pages!

I've yet to read the full afterword, I'm afraid it will just tilt me further.

Some will go on and on about prose and such, but I don't put stock in that.

I don't want 'novel handling'. I want tie in, cohesive, fiction.

And unfortunately, with him, we likely won't get it, and he gets the last book!

Can't wait for the twists and new revealing facts in that one. /s

Edited August 17, 2020 by Scribe

[DarkChaplain]

I don't want 'novel handling'. I want tie in, cohesive, fiction.

 

And unfortunately, with him, we likely won't get it, and he gets the last book!

 

Can't wait for the twists and new revealing facts in that one. /s

 

Tinfoil hat theory (that I pray won't be a thing, don't do it, Dan!):

 

Remember the King in Yellow in Pariah? It's actually the Big E after all. That's what he had to get big approval from the IP Overlords for. The one entombed on the Throne is actually Ollanius with all his 30-40k years worth of catholicist powers stoking the astronomican, while the Emperor is off on vacation to meet up with Szarekh, the Silent King of the Necrons, to figure out how to beat Chaos with Blacks-- excuse me, Noctilith.

 

Also, John Grammaticus chides the Emperor for bad grammar.

 

On a more serious note, I am with you in dreading Dan writing the finale. I never thought of him as somebody who nails the landing, and this one needs to be landed most of all, without timeskips, sudden 5 second climaxes, all so he has time to fiddle with his toys some more. It's been consistently the greatest criticism that I've had towards his books, and I loved many of them. But you honestly can't tell me that Eisenhorn: Hereticus actually had a great ending. It just skipped a lot of drama and went for the kill as he ran out of words, then left the reader just barely past the climax, with a brief "case closed" cliffnotes epilogue

Edited August 17, 2020 by DarkChaplain

[Scribe]

So I read the afterword, and surprisingly I am less annoyed that I was before.

 

The point of contention I think, is what b1soul touches on.

 

I do not want novel. I do not want 'unique' or 'distinct' takes on the setting. I want the setting, to be the setting, from French, to Wraight, to ADB, to Thorpe, to Abnett.

 

I also, badly, just wanted the Heresy series to hit the big notes. The bloated disaster it turned out to be, just is a tragic shame to me.

 

Regardless: My issue with Abnett is not his technical ability. Looking at the book as I noted above, it is a technical marvel to pull all that together. Its the minor details, that trip me up. Erda doesnt need to exist, the whole concept doesnt, and so I get lost in that.

 

The book itself, its fine. I stand by my 6/10 however. Nothing moving. Nothing tugs at the heart. 1 Character arc that is meaningful.

 

"In anything at all, perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away, when a body has been stripped down to its nakedness."

 

The point of the book, is the wrong one. Way too much attention is being paid to the establishment of Emperor as God, and not NEARLY enough to Horus, and the heresy itself.

 

The last book better be HEAVY on the Emperor/Horus introspection and conflict, it needs to be resolved, and answer the why of the entire thing.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Scribe

[DukeLeto69]

 

 

I don't want 'novel handling'. I want tie in, cohesive, fiction.

 

And unfortunately, with him, we likely won't get it, and he gets the last book!

 

Can't wait for the twists and new revealing facts in that one. /s

Tinfoil hat theory (that I pray won't be a thing, don't do it, Dan!):

 

Remember the King in Yellow in Pariah? It's actually the Big E after all. That's what he had to get big approval from the IP Overlords for. The one entombed on the Throne is actually Ollanius with all his 30-40k years worth of catholicist powers stoking the astronomican, while the Emperor is off on vacation to meet up with Szarekh, the Silent King of the Necrons, to figure out how to beat Chaos with Blacks-- excuse me, Noctilith.

 

Also, John Grammaticus chides the Emperor for bad grammar.

 

On a more serious note, I am with you in dreading Dan writing the finale. I never thought of him as somebody who nails the landing, and this one needs to be landed most of all, without timeskips, sudden 5 second climaxes, all so he has time to fiddle with his toys some more. It's been consistently the greatest criticism that I've had towards his books, and I loved many of them. But you honestly can't tell me that Eisenhorn: Hereticus actually had a great ending. It just skipped a lot of drama and went for the kill as he ran out of words, then left the reader just barely past the climax, with a brief "case closed" cliffnotes epilogue

Hey wait a minute - The Yellow King is the Emperor was my theory from like years ago - cheeky @DC very cheeky...

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345238-speculation-spoilers-regarding-the-magos-pariah-etc/

[Brother Lunkhead]

It's good to see everyone back

 

 

I like the SoH veterans more in Solar War than in this book. Even if they ambush and kill 50 SoH vets the kill-teams should have taken casualties with every ambush even if it was little by little, enough for Dorn to claim a victory while making it plausible

Aximand's 50 Marines should have killed at least 5-12 of the Blood Angels kill-team before going down. Tybalt's group should have killed two or three of Loken's Fists

SoH veterans, especially the best of the best, should never go down with a single bolter shot even at the head. At least two. Even the ones not wearing Terminator Armor should have access to Artificer Armor and Plasma Guns. They didn't fight like they were the best of the best but rather just above-average

How many Fists and Guardsmen were guarding the wall when Fulgrim and the EC attacked?

Sure over 10k EC die but they and Fulgrim should have killed thousands of Veteran IFs many of which in Terminator Armor! Especially since they were able to surprise attack the defenders thanks to the vehicle upgrades

It feels like the Traitor Primarchs are not being active that much when compared to the Loyalists fighting like crazy without rest

I will call BS in later novels if all the Traitor Primarchs, with Horus and Perturabo as exceptions, EACH don't reap their own death tolls! They should be decimating Loyalist Titans, Custode Terminators and veteran IF Terminators!

Fulgrim spared both Sigismund and Dorn by not fighting at full-power and going at the throat like when he later fought Guilliman

The fact Eidolon can keep up with a wounded Dorn even with support of others should trouble the Imperium. Just as Horus was empowered to the point he will beat the Emperor, Chaos has already started empowering a few champions to the level of Primarchs

Khârn, Abaddon and Zardu wished they had Eidolon aided them in First Wall against Dorn

Loken will be in the duel assisting Emperor and Olly with his psyker powers. He will utter the same words he said in the very first HH novel

Yeah, I agree the numbers on the Loyalist side ain't enough. Strange that there aren't any teenage and underage conscripts on both sides. The entire Imperial Palace should be filled with several Billion Conscripts

Daemons would have killed ever civilian outside the Palace anyways so the Emperor should have conscripted A LOT MORE. Give them autoguns, hunting rifles, axes and other archaic weapons. Suicide bombers like in Gaunt's Ghosts.

How many did the Emperor actually conscript in the Lost and Damned? I feel it wasn't enough. Very unrealistic to have Saturnine defended by 9k people versus the entire World Eaters Legion, the same Legion that killed everyone in Nuceria, millions of people, in just a few hours

Does anyone know the population of Terra and the rest of the Solar System at the start of the HH or Solar War? Feels like hundreds of Billions dying in Solar War alone is just a drop in a bucket compared to the local population

 

Good observation concerning fire fight body count.  Funny, in most of the 40Kverse fiction one of my pet peeves is Space Marines taking too many casualties and dying recklessly in stupid fights for the sake of cheap dramatic moments. However, in this case you make an excellent point. 

 

 

Devoured this over the course of two nights; a really enjoyable romp. I read and enjoyed The Solar War, then went straight to Saturnine. I'm sure I've missed some details in skipping the intervening novels, but the leap seemed to work well, feeling like connecting two nodal points.

 

Anyway, the main reason I wanted to comment was because of the sheer number of little nods, 'easter eggs' and treats Abnett scatters around the prose. Some of these made me gasp (inwardly, because c'mon), others got me fired up, and one in particular genuinely made me laugh out loud:

 

Leetu's (a fun character – I am assuming he's new for Saturnine and doesn't appear in any of the rest of the series?) name, taken from his armour's serial mark (LE2), is an easter egg of genius:

 

Very nice

 

 

I like how Abnett likes to bend the rules of 40K withou in my view breaking them.

Leetu and the Erda business are great examples of that. Even his handling of Chaos and Daemons is quite novel. Keeps the setting from going stale.

 

I know you've brought this up before, but interesting point nevertheless. Could you elaborate on what rules Abnett is bending, specifically with regards to Leetu and Erda? And what's the good and the bad of it (anyone chime in on this please)?

 

 

So I read the afterword, and surprisingly I am less annoyed that I was before.

 

The point of contention I think, is what b1soul touches on.

 

I do not want novel. I do not want 'unique' or 'distinct' takes on the setting. I want the setting, to be the setting, from French, to Wraight, to ADB, to Thorpe, to Abnett.

 

I also, badly, just wanted the Heresy series to hit the big notes. The bloated disaster it turned out to be, just is a tragic shame to me.

 

Regardless: My issue with Abnett is not his technical ability. Looking at the book as I noted above, it is a technical marvel to pull all that together. Its the minor details, that trip me up. Erda doesnt need to exist, the whole concept doesnt, and so I get lost in that.

 

The book itself, its fine. I stand by my 6/10 however. Nothing moving. Nothing tugs at the heart. 1 Character arc that is meaningful.

 

"In anything at all, perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away, when a body has been stripped down to its nakedness."

 

The point of the book, is the wrong one. Way too much attention is being paid to the establishment of Emperor as God, and not NEARLY enough to Horus, and the heresy itself.

 

The last book better be HEAVY on the Emperor/Horus introspection and conflict, it needs to be resolved, and answer the why of the entire thing.

 

Right on concerning the bloat.

 

Which character arc did you find meaningful?

 

It's nice to see so many back so quickly. Where off to a pretty good restart here. However, I already see some potential for going off coarse. When it comes to observations of lack of cohesion, story bloat and the Dan bashing, remember to keep it specific to this novel..... examples, quotes, etc. would be helpful to illustrate your points. Specific examples and the like go for all sides of this specific and most other points in the discussion. I know looking stuff up and summarizing or quoting chapter and verse, and then hiding them is a pain, but these things give strength to your arguments and gives fellow Libers who haven't read/finished the book context to what you are saying.... and it has the added benefit of making it look like less of a gripe/rant..... even if it isn't 

[Scribe]

Piers and Hari made the book for me. I believe that is the most important and central arc of the book, and not particularly close.

 

There are a few set pieces, Diaz, Angron, assorted fan service call outs (seriously I'll never understand the Knights Errant arc), but Piers is the strongest part of the book from a narrative/story telling perspective.

 

Technical skill, is the strongest part of the book if that makes sense, but as far as the story goes (divorced from the Heresy plot) Piers, and everything about his scenes, was the most important piece of the story to me.

 

EDIT: And please folks, dont mistake me for bashing Abnett. Its not. The problems I have here are the application of talent. His works could simply be BETTER, if he was pulled in a bit.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Scribe

[Moonreaper666]

Piers and Hari made the book for me. I believe that is the most important and central arc of the book, and not particularly close.

 

There are a few set pieces, Diaz, Angron, assorted fan service call outs (seriously I'll never understand the Knights Errant arc), but Piers is the strongest part of the book from a narrative/story telling perspective.

 

Technical skill, is the strongest part of the book if that makes sense, but as far as the story goes (divorced from the Heresy plot) Piers, and everything about his scenes, was the most important piece of the story to me.

 

EDIT: And please folks, dont mistake me for bashing Abnett. Its not. The problems I have here are the application of talent. His works could simply be BETTER, if he was pulled in a bit.

I disagree. It should have been other authors that be pulled back when they go too far. In fact Abnett plus ADB, Haley, Wraight and French should have been given control of the Siege of Terra Novels! (Not total control but a big influence)

 

Solar War and Saturnine are both :cussing amazing and mostly fit together! The others not so much

 

I was lightly-spoiled on Solar War before I read it. I was heavily-spoiled before reading Saturnine. They are that good

 

I won't buy nor read Latd or First Wall or Sons of Selenar

 

Another thing that bothered me between Solar War and Saturnine. The SoH Veterans should all have benefical minor corruption

 

Being the cream of the crop. The Daemons and Gods' blessings on them in Solar War should have shown in Saturnine

 

From very minor Psyker abilities to slighty noticable increase in reflexes and strength, the SoH Best-of-the-best would have inflicted casualties on ever Kill-team. Granted, they still lose badly but they get kills of the Loyalist best-of-the-best

 

The EC should have the majority of their Legion survive Saturnine. Because they later defeated the Sons of Horus in the Eye of Terror, survive Khârn and survive tearing each other apart

 

Feels like Dorn only achieved pyhrric victories at Saturnine

 

 

Do the novels or old lore ever explain why Traitors and Daemons did not/could not kill EVERY SINGLE LOYALIST SOLDIER AND CIVILIAN outside of the Palace!?!

 

There are small warbands in the current millenium that have each killed billions in singular horrific events (Flawless Host, The Purge, Khornate Daemonkin, Honsou, etc.) Terra should have been outright depopulated post-siege

 

Kinda wished they did kill them all seeing as it woulf fit what Mortarion said in present day, that they did so much damage Terra would never recover

[Scribe]

Mostly, because a lot of what you repeat as feasible, or even factual 'per the lore' is nonsense.

 

Terra depopulated? How? Do you realize how the siege ends? They had no intention of virus bombing it.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Because the vast, vast, vast majority of daemons/traitors were focussed on, you know, the Palace? The whole reason they were there in the first place? The whole reason the Emperors Children abandoning the fight for the Palace and terrorising the rest of the planet is so notable is precisely because they're basically the only ones that did so. The rest of the Traitor forces don't care about killing hab-block Omega-Delta-233345942 and all the 10,000 civilians hiding inside it, because it does absolutely nothing for their gain. They've already caused enough bloodshed to allow daemons to manifest on the planet without instantly getting annihilated.

They're on a timer, remember? They've got Guilliman and the combined naval forces of pretty much the entire loyal parts of the galaxy bearing down upon them. For Chaos/Horus to win, the Emperor has to die, and he has to be dead as soon as absolutely possible, preferably even sooner than that.

 

Killing those random civilians doesn't give them any benefit whatsoever. Oh, it kills possible defenders? Sure, but they're not the ones defending what they want to take. It's more dead civilians, and that's always good for Chaos? Well, not really, when Guilliman is bringing a crudload more to replace however many humans they kill away from the Palace.

 

Death Guard? Entirely focused on the Palace. Sons of Horus? Entirely focused on the Palace. Thousand Sons, Night Lords, Iron Warriors? You guessed it, entirely focused on the Palace. The Chaos Gods themselves? Entirely focused on the Palace.

 

And lastly, after everything you've said, with how things turned out, Mortarion spoke the truth. Terra was irreparably damaged by the Siege. It has not, and cannot, recover to what it was before. It's just that the damage was done in a way other than "and then these guys killed billions of people each, and it was just so many kills you guys, and Khârn was like braaar, and Mortarion was like glurrrr, and Dorn was like not today! but then Perturabo was like krakoooom".

Things can be damaged in a way that they never recover without just being "and then they all died".

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

Let's keep it friendly please.

 

=][=

[Moonreaper666]

Because the vast, vast, vast majority of daemons/traitors were focussed on, you know, the Palace? The whole reason they were there in the first place? The whole reason the Emperors Children abandoning the fight for the Palace and terrorising the rest of the planet is so notable is precisely because they're basically the only ones that did so. The rest of the Traitor forces don't care about killing hab-block Omega-Delta-233345942 and all the 10,000 civilians hiding inside it, because it does absolutely nothing for their gain. They've already caused enough bloodshed to allow daemons to manifest on the planet without instantly getting annihilated.

They're on a timer, remember? They've got Guilliman and the combined naval forces of pretty much the entire loyal parts of the galaxy bearing down upon them. For Chaos/Horus to win, the Emperor has to die, and he has to be dead as soon as absolutely possible, preferably even sooner than that.

 

Killing those random civilians doesn't give them any benefit whatsoever. Oh, it kills possible defenders? Sure, but they're not the ones defending what they want to take. It's more dead civilians, and that's always good for Chaos? Well, not really, when Guilliman is bringing a crudload more to replace however many humans they kill away from the Palace.

 

Death Guard? Entirely focused on the Palace. Sons of Horus? Entirely focused on the Palace. Thousand Sons, Night Lords, Iron Warriors? You guessed it, entirely focused on the Palace. The Chaos Gods themselves? Entirely focused on the Palace.

 

And lastly, after everything you've said, with how things turned out, Mortarion spoke the truth. Terra was irreparably damaged by the Siege. It has not, and cannot, recover to what it was before. It's just that the damage was done in a way other than "and then these guys killed billions of people each, and it was just so many kills you guys, and Khârn was like braaar, and Mortarion was like glurrrr, and Dorn was like not today! but then Perturabo was like krakoooom".

Things can be damaged in a way that they never recover without just being "and then they all died".

Have we been reading the same books? Because what you are saying is completely wrong

 

There are MOAR Daemons in the first few pages of Avenging Son than in the entirety of this novel! They are also much more proactive AND successful despite being only Khornate Daemons and lacking support from non-Daemon forces!?!

 

Daemons and Lost and the Damned have not been assaulting all-around the Palace non-stop. So what the heck are they doing! Lost have not been involve in every attack in Saturnine so your assumption is false

 

Magnus and Mortarion haven't done anything in this book but being orcuses on their thrones. Angron and Fulgrim actually pulled their weight in this novel, but they and their Legions seriously underperformed. Ka'Bandha and Doombreed haven't done anything as well

 

Billions died in both Solar War, Latd and First Wall. Only a few hundred thousand died in Saturnine which is a big letdown

 

Another thing that bothered me about just the EC Legion being used to assault the wall was the lack of Lost support for several reasons:

 

- The EC aren't the only ones thst would lose interest in the siege. Pirates, Opportunists and Slaanesh-influenced Lost would not be heavily attacking the Palace for many reasons. Ordering them to follow the EC Legion would improve morale and commit to the goal of being the first to breach and plunder the Palace in their heads

 

- Many Solar Auxilia, Knight Houses and Veteran Guardsmen have fought with the EC before and during the Heresy becoming loyal to them and corrupted by Slaanesh. Had such effective troops join the EC assault would have made a huge effect

 

- EC casualties would be much lower and the Lost would be much more effective. The first ones using the boarding pods or teleporting in would be the Lost to take the initial volley-fire of the defenders. Now that the Lost are on the wall they can use their greater number to more effectiveness to swarm the defenders and hit them more accurately with their guns. It would be impossible for Dorn and his very meagre reinforcements to drive them back on their own and impossible with the EC

 

I am surprised that the SoH vets did not use Lost support in the form of Solar Auxilia, Cultists as well as a few Daemons stored in the vehicles in their assault. The Lost would have taken the brunt of any surprises and allowed the SoH more time to analyse the situation and react accordingly. Lost would also be great distractiions forcing Dorn to redirect Loyalists to chase them around the Palace. Inside the Palace, the Lost are at more even footing against the non-Astarte defenders, especially if the form barricades and good defensive formations. SoH can move more freely and maybe ambush Loyal Astartes while they are busy fighting the Lost

 

Daemons can be packed like crazy into a vehicle since they don't take space or resources. They just phase out of the vehicle's wall and charge (a few throw warp-projectiles) at the Loyalists while the SoH have relative safety in getting out the vehicle and enough time to see and fire on the Loyalist. There aren't any anti-Daemon runes in many places inside the Palace. Once inside SoH, Lost and the more resilent Daemons can start destroying those runes to allow more Daemons manifest inside the Palace!

 

The Lost should have been used as meatshields/screening force to protect World Eaters, Death Guard and newly manifested Daemons. Suicide bombers hiding in the Lost horde would stop idiotic Loyal Marines on bikes from charging head long into a horde (Strange that suicide bombers are not used in the Siege. Abnett uses them in his Gaunt's Ghost storyline)

 

Killing Trillions in Terra would cause so much lost in knowledge and industrial power. These losses turn the HH-Imperium into the one we know in the 41st Millenium. Blind and unable to just swat its enemies like little flies anymore compared to the Imperium's height in the Great Crusade. Also, summons more Daemons and supercharges Chaos Sorcery. More Daemons summoned means more pressure on the defenders and less casualties on the Lost. Supercharging Sorcery would have allowed the Traitors to negate many of the Palace's defenses or destroy the defenders outright

[Scribe]

If you are surprised the SoH went alone you should reread why.

[Moonreaper666]

If you are surprised the SoH went alone you should reread why.

I know about the Surprise-Speartip tactic but it would not hurt to bring two companies of Traitor Solar Auxilia and some Daemons. Many Traitor Solar Auxialia are die-hard loyal to Horus. Daemons don't have loose lips to sink the ship so to speak

 

Besides the only reason that Abaddon and Perturabo only sent the best of the best was the argument that it's all they could afford which doesn't make sense since they have a lot of veteran Marines and veteran Humans that are better off used in the sneak attack than being wasted in frontal assaults in which the defenders had a massive advantage

 

Had Tybalt Marr's group been accompanied by Daemons they would have overwhelmed the enemy Company and destroy the Aegis on their own

 

It kinda make sense why it was retconned so that Lorgar, Konrad and the vast majority of Word Bearers were not in the Siege. The defenders would have lost very badly. Imagine if Lorgar and Konrad joined Abaddon's secret attack. Or the Word Bearers fleet was present in Solar War. Word Bearers assisting Death Guard and Night Lords would have inflicted very heavy casualties on the Loyalist. Aegis destroyed allowing the Traitor fleet to destroy the Imperial Palace and killing the Three (maybe Four if Vulkan lost his immortality like John) Primarchs and their Legions

[Scribe]

Go back and read it again, it was more than about secrecy.

 

We already know that if either the World Eaters, or EC could have been controlled, it would have been an easy victory for Horus, thats right out of the mouth of Sang or Dorn at the end of the book.

 

You still miss the point of why SoH went alone on the tunnel mission.

 

EDIT: I'll save you the time.

 

Abaddon wanted a clean, Astartes, Military Victory for the Siege, and this was the only way.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Scribe

[Noserenda]

Plus, if you had read it, they already stuffed as many SoH as they possibly could into their various tunnellers, why would you put humans or daemons in a space you could put Marine elites into? 

[Moonreaper666]

Plus, if you had read it, they already stuffed as many SoH as they possibly could into their various tunnellers, why would you put humans or daemons in a space you could put Marine elites into?

I was wrong about the Traitor Solar Auxilia but not the Daemons

 

The Daemons don't take up space in the vehicle. You can stack a lot of them inside the structure of the vehicle like its tires, walls, engines and doors. Plus, they just pop-out of the vehicle through its walls and head straight towards the enemy

 

Daemons could boost the speed of the engines and reduce noise and vibration. They would be very eager to join the SoH best in a speartip attack instead of being bogged down by walls. Heck, have the best Daemons join the SoH Speartip. Ka'Bandha, Doombreeder, Be'lakor and Skulltaker would be great tarpits and would have killed many Loyalists and even Dorn

 

The Lost and Daemons should have definitely served as meatshields, screening force and suicide bombers for the World Eaters and EC. I don't know why there aren't any suicide bombers in the Siege. Suicide bombers mixed-in with the Lost or Daemons would have killed most of the reckless White Scars

[Scribe]

...

 

How many Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, or Keepers of Secrets did you read about in the text?

 

You either have me on ignore or blocked, or you simply continue to ignore the underlying desire expressed by Abaddon.

 

Essentially, if you read the book, you are misunderstanding the story as told, and seeking to stamp your own view of the setting on it instead.

 

Suicide bombers?? Like...look at the scale, reread the book. Suicide bombers?

 

The traitors have every ability to hurl shells, unhindered, down range. Days long shelling.

 

Suicide bombers?

 

Why?

[Dagoth Ur]

 

Plus, if you had read it, they already stuffed as many SoH as they possibly could into their various tunnellers, why would you put humans or daemons in a space you could put Marine elites into?

I was wrong about the Traitor Solar Auxilia but not the Daemons

 

The Daemons don't take up space in the vehicle. You can stack a lot of them inside the structure of the vehicle like its tires, walls, engines and doors. Plus, they just pop-out of the vehicle through its walls and head straight towards the enemy

 

Daemons could boost the speed of the engines and reduce noise and vibration. They would be very eager to join the SoH best in a speartip attack instead of being bogged down by walls. Heck, have the best Daemons join the SoH Speartip. Ka'Bandha, Doombreeder, Be'lakor and Skulltaker would be great tarpits and would have killed many Loyalists and even Dorn

 

The Lost and Daemons should have definitely served as meatshields, screening force and suicide bombers for the World Eaters and EC. I don't know why there aren't any suicide bombers in the Siege. Suicide bombers mixed-in with the Lost or Daemons would have killed most of the reckless White Scars

Dude, Abaddon clearly states why there are no daemons present - poster above me even mentioned why in a spoiler.

Edited August 20, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead
unconstructive

[Lord_Caerolion]

Now that’s rich, MoonReaper accusing others of not having read the book.

 

EDIT:

 

 

 

There are MOAR Daemons in the first few pages of Avenging Son than in the entirety of this novel! They are also much more proactive AND successful despite being only Khornate Daemons and lacking support from non-Daemon forces!?!

Daemons and Lost and the Damned have not been assaulting all-around the Palace non-stop. So what the heck are they doing! Lost have not been involve in every attack in Saturnine so your assumption is false

Magnus and Mortarion haven't done anything in this book but being orcuses on their thrones. Angron and Fulgrim actually pulled their weight in this novel, but they and their Legions seriously underperformed. Ka'Bandha and Doombreed haven't done anything as well

Billions died in both Solar War, Latd and First Wall. Only a few hundred thousand died in Saturnine which is a big letdown.

 

Ok... So... Let's just take a moment to dissect this.

 

There are "moar" daemons discussed in Avenging Son because the entire point of that invasion was that it was done purely by Khornate daemons. During the Siege there absolutely are daemons taking part. That's part of the whole point of First Wall, was dealing with the increasing numbers of incarnating daemons of Nurgle among the victims of the Death Guard attacks. However, and I know this may be hard to understand but work with me here, but not every single thing can be included in a single novel. Daemons don't feature heavily in Saturnine because it's not their story. It's the story of Dorn, and of Abaddon wanting to prove that there is still a place for unchanged Astartes. That's what you keep ignoring with your "but why didn't Abaddon pack his vehicles full to the brim of magical shrinking daemons" stuff, because Abaddon doesn't want to use them! That's literally his story in the book! This also goes for Magnus and Mortarion, they're not "not doing anything", it's simply not being shown, because again, this isn't their story. 

 

Secondly, the Daemons and Lost/Damned, again, have been attacking constantly, however a significant of the general human troops was expended in the initial phase of the invasion, causing enough bloodshed to allow the daemons to incarnate. The novel just doesn't choose to focus on this because, once more, and say it with me this time, it's not their story.

 

And lastly, I just really gotta say this, but the book is disappointing because the death count is lower? There's more to battles than just smashing two armies against each other while stuff explodes. Victories aren't just about "but I killed more guys than you". This is a story centering on a single attack on the Saturnine Gate. Of course it's going to have a smaller death count than the book about the war for the entire bloody Solar System! Of course it's going to have a smaller death count than a story about the Traitor forces sending their own faceless hordes into a slaughter for ritual purposes! Does that make this book worse? No, because I don't base my opinion of a book on how many unnamed mooks get mowed down by whatever named characters exist in it. 

 

There's more to books than "but how many guys got killed in this one". Sure, Khârn doesn't go on an ax-rampage and kill countless thousands all by himself, and Mortarion doesn't depopulate entire Hives singlehandedly with his toxins, because that sort of thing being the only stuff a book features is childish and simplistic. There's more to 40k than kill counts.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[Noserenda]

 

I was wrong about the Traitor Solar Auxilia but not the Daemons

 

The Daemons don't take up space in the vehicle. You can stack a lot of them inside the structure of the vehicle like its tires, walls, engines and doors. Plus, they just pop-out of the vehicle through its walls and head straight towards the enemy

 

Daemons could boost the speed of the engines and reduce noise and vibration. They would be very eager to join the SoH best in a speartip attack instead of being bogged down by walls. Heck, have the best Daemons join the SoH Speartip. Ka'Bandha, Doombreeder, Be'lakor and Skulltaker would be great tarpits and would have killed many Loyalists and even Dorn

 

 

I think everyone else has torn the rest down but you still dont seem to understand how Chaos "works" 

 

1. Manifested Daemons are... manifest, they (mostly) cant noclip and are (generally) too proud to squeeze into a footlocker just for the lols. I mean, yeah you could squeeze in a bunch of nurglings or similar tiny beasties but why? 

 

2. Chaos gifts are not reliable and they generally come with a cost. Traditionally daemon transports east their passengers at random which is pretty sub optimal when every passenger is an elite veteran. I cant honestly think of any example where adding a daemon to something made it more efficient at anything other than killing things and not dying.

 

3. Even if Abbaddon wasnt trying to do this with only Marines, (Which he was) can you imagine the negotiations to get a great daemon to craw itself into a tunneller for hours without just killing everyone from stress and boredom? Thats even before you get into the effects of the wall, and the aegis which roughly matches it.

 

You just have this weird view of Chaos dude, i mean the big clue is in its various names...

[Scribe]

Wow, you actually solved the name of my next project. I hope it's not taken...

 

Much appreciated. :D

 

As to the topic here, the needs of the story must be respected.

 

That's what it really boils down to.

[b1soul]

Could someone remind...what were the Custodes and Valdor doing during the Saturnine speartip? All holed up in the Inner Palace? A squad or two of them among Garro and co. would've ended Abaddon badly

[Indefragable]

Could someone remind...what were the Custodes and Valdor doing during the Saturnine speartip? All holed up in the Inner Palace? A squad or two of them among Garro and co. would've ended Abaddon badly

Valdor is with Khan and Raldoron at the xyz gate (I can’t keep them apart sometimes). Many Custodes are with them, in part to bolster the force, in part to “encourage” Khan to stay at the xyz gate a bit longer before running off to retake the Lion’s Gate spaceport.

 

I am sure there have to be others elsewhere, but it’s the only specific mention of them in force in the whole book, if I recall.