Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett

[Brother Lunkhead]

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All of this discussion about daemons, cultists, and suicide bombers is getting a bit way too overheated. Right or wrong, everyone has an opinion and no matter how hard you try, you are highly unlikely to change anyone's mind on either side.

 

Keep in mind that we are talking about a book based on a game with little toy space soldiers. Perspective and patience please.

 

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[Scribe]

Lunkhead, and I mean this in the least antagonistic way possible, there must be lines in the sand.

 

There must be a basis of logic, of understanding, of consensus, on the reality of a text, and what it says.

 

Everyone who has read and comprehends what they read, understands some of what was being discussed.

 

In short? Incorrect assertions must be corrected, or this branch of the forums is useless.

[mc warhammer]

well, that sounds like a noble battle

 

but really, what is the end goal in changing one poster's opinion, right or wrong?

 

if the day comes when you finally triumph, and that poster 'bends the knee'....what have you won? what's been achieved? correctnessness?

 

the majority of this forum agrees on the fundamentals of the 40k universe, what's one stray sheep from the flock? does it really make the entire board "useless"? there's 45 pages of robust discussion that says differently.

 

personally, i always allow for difference of cultural, social and yes, comprehension ability when reading other people's posts. some people are always going to approach life differently because of whatever their situation is and as long as it isn't malicious or harmful... that has to be ok.

 

i'm with lunkhead on this one.

[Marshal Rohr]

I know about the Surprise-Speartip tactic but it would not hurt to bring two companies of Traitor Solar Auxilia and some Daemons. Many Traitor Solar Auxialia are die-hard loyal to Horus. Daemons don't have loose lips to sink the ship so to speak

Two companies of auxilia is like 300 men tops. Also the ‘trillions’ number you keep throwing out is incorrect. We went over this when you said Khârn personally killed a trillion people and it would mathematically takes thousands of years, over 31,000. Considering the siege lasts a year, well....

Edited August 20, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Dagoth Ur]

I mean, there is a difference between ambiguity and Abbadon quite *literally* saying - in writing - why he doesn't want humans OR daemons. Like, this is not a point of opinion, it is plainly - in black and white - told to us in the novel.

 

As rarely as I agree with Scribe, I have to give him full support here - there has to be SOME standard to any discussion if we are meaning to discuss novels of whatever quality ( and no, I am not buying the argument that toy soldier novels dont count, because at that point you might as well throw out The Tales of Hoffmann because one of them is literally about some dudes robo waifu). Besides, MoonReaper has been filling up threads recently with points and theories grasped out of thin air, just as he did some time back.

 

Am I the only one remembering the collectivized thread for all his theories that devolved into gakposting two posts after the OP? Gakposting where even the MODS were involved? No? Good, because this feel eerily similar looking at his recent posting patterns and tendencies to bog down threads.

Edited August 20, 2020 by The Observer

[Scribe]

if the day comes when you finally triumph, and that poster 'bends the knee'....what have you won? what's been achieved? correctnessness?

.

After correction has been provided?

 

Yes, actually.

 

Abaddon went with the force he went with for a specific and clearly stated reason.

 

To correct faulty lines of discussion is no sin. It established the basis for further understanding of a shared setting.

[Dagoth Ur]

 

if the day comes when you finally triumph, and that poster 'bends the knee'....what have you won? what's been achieved? correctnessness?

.

After correction has been provided?

 

Yes, actually.

 

Abaddon went with the force he went with for a specific and clearly stated reason.

 

To correct faulty lines of discussion is no sin. It established the basis for further understanding of a shared setting.

This. If we are to discuss the metaphorical importance of something that is plainly stated, then we have to acknowledge that it IS stated.

[Brother Lunkhead]

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...and time out.

 

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[Brother Lunkhead]

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Game on.

There are just two ground rules that need to be observed to keep this thread open:

 

BE FRIENDLY

and

BE FOCUSED

 

PLAAAAY BALL

 

=][=

[Scribe]

Abaddon, on why the Speartip Strike was his troops alone.

 

"Because I saw it. Because I want it. It's a military win.'

...

"...You want to prove what you are. A soldier. Not a child of the warp. An Astartes.' (Perturablo)

...

"I want the glory, and I want to win it with the skill of my blade and superiority of my troops. As I did in the old days, as I have always done, as an Astartes."

 

Page 141, Saturnine.

 

Nothing further need be said on this.

[Indefragable]

Indy’s review 

 

 

Part 1

The bold claim. 

 

Hidden Content

Saturnine by Dan Abnett is the best 40k* book published by Black Library. 

 

(*and by extension HH/30k)

 

Is it perfect? No. 

Does it have the best action scenes in all of 40k? No, but there are some truly good ones.

Does it have the best character arcs and  development in all of 40k? No, but there is some nice development. 

Does it have the best dialogue? No, but none of it is bad. 

 

So why is Saturnine so good? 

 

It is the thesis of the Warhammer 40,000 setting. 

Within it’s pages is the single most succinct capture of why 40k exists. Of why all of us are interested in it. Of why it has endured. Of why so many of us tear it apart and lambast the company that makes it and all their decisions and gripe like a bunch of old men. It is summarized in a single scene, in a few short sentences (see below). 

 

I often mention how my English professor and mentor would say “that book is a nice story, but what does it say?” What purpose does a story serve? Why do we need to hear the story, how are we bettered as human beings for having consumed the work? The purpose of literature is provide answers to those types of questions. It is hard, nigh impossible ,to apply such criteria or the term “literature” to works of 40k since they are by and large pulp. Just “nice” stories to consume. Candy bars, if you will. And hey, who doesn’t enjoy candy now and then? 

 

Saturnine is literature. In its own way** it answers some of the above criteria. It provides enlightenment on the human condition (in its own way) that my English professor saw as the purpose of his profession. 

 

That single scene, those few sentences I have transcribed from the audiobook below. Multiple layers of Spoiler tags because to truly capture the import of these words, the text should be absorbed in its entirety, like listening to a full song rather than just a few riffs. Yet, how can I possibly convey all that has been stated above without giving up the goods? 

 

It is thus: 

 

 

“Kintsugi,” he said. “I love kintsugi work. To take time and huge skill to rebuild a broken thing.” He ran his fingers along one of the beaker’s crooked broken seams. “Other cultures would discard it: broken pottery. But no, the craftsman puts it back together, fuses each piece with gold. And he uses gold because he doesn’t want to hide the fact that it was broken. It wears its scars and turns them into beauty. I think kintsugi pieces are more wonderful than original, unbroken pots.” 

 

 

Imagine a friend or family or your boss asks you why you like Warhammer 40,000. What about a setting so bleak and miserable and depressing could possibly make you feel good about life? Read the above to them. 

 

So for that reason alone, and many accompanying aspects to the above dialogue, Saturnine stands alone. 

 

**by the standards of literature this would not hold up against To Kill a Mockingbird or any other such enshrined work, but that the fact that it takes a novel essentially about toy soldiers and elevates them to the realm of literature—as opposed to pulp—is a feat in and of itself. 

 

 

 

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Part 2

About the controversial stuff.

 

Hidden Content

I’m not a fan of the Perpetuals in the HH series. 

 

I think they are a distraction from what we want to see. They feel like an unnecessary element to a story that should be gloriously straightforward in its mythology. More characters strutting onto an already overcrowded stage and ones who’s presence feels at odds with the others. 

 

This book changed my mind.  Henry Ford supposedly said “if I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” The skill of an artist is often her ability to get someone to enjoy a work they might not normally appreciate. 

 

One of my peeves about the Siege of Terra series so far is how no one has talked to the Emperor. Not even his 2nd in command, not even his bodyguards and most trusted commander. It seems so strange to me that nobody, not Malcador, not Valdor, not Dorn, nor anyone else we interact with as characters in the series has even so much as popped their head into the Emperor’s chamber and been like “you good in there? Need some water or some tp or anything? No? Your’e cool? Great.” Like the Vice President just…..doesn’t communicate with the President at all? Even the Secret Service doesn’t know what’s up with the President? It seems so at odds with me. Unrealistic in many ways. You mean neither Darth Vader nor Grand Moff Tarkin have any idea what the Emperor is up to? 

 

Wait a second…

 

I am not a fan of the Perpetuals, but scenes in this book have presented a new idea to me, one I had not considered before, yet now I cannot help but be intrigued by. The idea that The Emperor is so removed from the rest, that he has a court all to himself, that not even Malcador or Valdor are familiar with . I am reminded of the scenes in Star Wars: Return of the Jedi where even Vader is uneasy entering the Emperor’s chamber. The feeling of mystery and intrigue and unease the Star Wars’ Emperor’s weird purple attendants and red storm troopers present at first viewing (before all the expanded universe stuff expanded on them).

 

In essence, there is a scene in Saturnine that is the 40k equivalent of the “Before the Dark Times” scene in Star Wars: A New Hope.  ( https://youtu.be/tpJnMVKO6Vo ) A pivotal moment, in many ways, featuring Perpetuals, that is crucial for bringing up just as many further questions as it provide answers. Just as Obi-Wan’s dialogue in that aforementioned scene is essentially the pivot point of the entire Star Wars saga, so I only wonder if some of this dialogue is a similar pivot point. It provides just enough hints about life Before to intrigue and make you realize that the Perpetuals are, in essence, the true inhabitants of the setting. Everyone is just strutting their hour upon the stage full of sound and fury. To everyone else, the Imperium is the pinnacle, it is the only way. For some of these characters, its Wednesday. 

Where the Perpetuals become interesting in this book is that they provide a context not unlike Obi-Wan does: here is what it was like before, here is where are now, here is where we see things going. 

 

They are still certainly not my favorite part of the setting, but for the first time in all of the HH, I am interested and intrigued and have an inkling of where Abnett may be going with them as we slide inexorably to the close of this whole thing. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Part 3

Everything else in the book.

 

Hidden Content

This book has everything : 

 

-eat the rich wealth-inequality-gr.png

 

-why stories exist

 

-how to tell a true war story

 

-the purpose of religion

 

-how myths are created and their purpose

 

-what the title Saturnine actually refers to (hint: it’s not the wall)

 

 

…and that’s before we even get to the actual Warhammer 40,000 stuff, like dudes in power armor beating on each other…

 

Of which there is so much to talk about that I am going to simply copy+paste the notes I took as I read this:

Hidden Content

 

-Dorn and Sinderman at the cliff is a great little scene. Beautiful insight into the -human- mind.

 

-Sanginius’ moment with Rann’s group was badass. Just what we’ve been looking from hawk boy all along…

 

-….but him soloing tightens is becoming a bit of a trope. He did it in the Black Books, in Titandeath, and now Saturnine. It’s cool, but he’s got to have some other tricks up his sleeve, right? For me it has a lot of the elements that have plagued Sanguinius’ showing in the whole HH series: no weight. For me, a character commenting about “can he do that to all of them?” or “who needs Titan support when we have The Angel!” or such would bring things home. How we would react to seeing that, and multiple times.

 

-Jeanna Krole’s voice. In the audiobook, it switches from Jonathan Keeble to Emma Gregory. This is excellent for a number of reasons, including that Emma has a great voice for narration and the fact that the character has no voice but that in her own head being reflected in a jarring switch of narrator for us as the consumers of the audiobook…is just an excellent way to sympathize with the character. Well done. 

 

-the meeting between Dorn, Valdor, Krole, and Malcador is what the HH series in the big picture, and the SoT series in the smaller picture, has needed all along. Seeing the chessboard as they do, with the strategies and decisions needed to influence that chessboard. Most especially since the IP of 40k is so intrinsically tied to tabletop gaming, where players look at the field and the armies and have to decide on courses of action that determine the outcome, putting the SoT into such terms is precisely what we have been lacking all along. It works both in the historical perspective “this is what was happening,” but also in the narrative perspective of setting up the gist of the tale to come. I can’t really harp on this enough: why haven’t we had more of this sort of thing all along?

 

-White Scar charge: like Sangy’s moves against the Titans earlier, this was so well described. This is how a charge from them should have been portrayed all along. 

 

-…the above being said, from a big picture perspective, this is what, the third time this has been done? Starting to become a big repetitive, and you’d think they’d catch-on in-universe. 

 

-Diaz’s line in the sand

 

-exposition with Neeberand (sp?) and Shiban Khan. Good example of “exception that proves the rule” when it comes to White Scars tactics.

 

-Sanguinius’ visions of Pert + Abaddon. This sort of commentary from one Primarch about another is what I’ve wanted to know all along. “I don’t know if I could beat him in this type of fight.” 

 

-The image of an Iron Warriors Cataphractii terminator with heavy flamers mounted on the shoulders firing in triumph, roaring for being the first traitor to get inside the inner sanctum….and then a sword comes out of nowhere and neatly slices him in half, knocking him off the wall as Sanguinius casually takes him out. Cinematic reveal. 

 

-Dorn vs Fulgrim. A bit too much “tell” and not enough “show” in my opinion. It feels a bit off….like lines of a play being read and not acted. I get what was going on here and why it was included, but it felt rushed. 

 

-I don’t get the whole Magnus part….he and Ahriman could have taken a wall, but they held back just to make Mortarion fail? 

 

-I sometimes can’t tell Loken, Garro, or any other of the “independent” characters apart at times. I want to like Loken more, but I’m having trouble getting any feels out of him. Garro and the Knights Errant I just don’t care about these days <shrug>. 

 

-The entire Jeanna Krole part. How it cuts to her first-person view of things, her inner monologue. The tragic life she lives as a voiceless being who’s power is a curse. Even her death is well done in how it simply cuts off. Perhaps this is part of the audiobook experience, but the narrator changes from Jonathan Keeble to Emma Gregory for these parts. And when she is killed Emma simply ceases talking mid-sentence and it goes back to Jonathan. It’s a beautiful, heartbreaking, effective moment. I totally get the complaints of how her death is a bit of a letdown and seems kind of out of nowhere….valid in so many ways and the sheer experience of the technique of inserting Emma’s narration feels too short-lived….but for what it’s worth it is an amazing experience while it lasts. I started looking up more narration by Emma Gregory as a result. 

 

-The end ambush. 

 

-Diaz’s line in the sand gets all the manly tears it seems, but to me Abaddon crying is one of the most beautiful moments of the HH. Not because I’m rooting for/against him (a critique of mine for another time), but because it is a felt moment. Someone as scary and powerful as he reduced to shambles for a relatable reason, a warrior’s moment. “Send me back…” 

 

-Not sure how I feel about Sanguinius’ vision of the destruction of Angron’s homeworld being such a plot hinge for the rest of the series. Seems a bit thin (as of right now), kind of like the Lion picking up Curze’s reveal that he will be killed by an assassin sent by the Emperor is that one little clue that ends the entire Imperium Secundus arc. 

 

-Am I reading too much into this, or are we set up for the Sanguinius vs Angron showdown? 

 

-Corswain’s arrival at the end….not sure what to make of it, but for the context of the HH and the SoT, it’s one helluva cliffhanger. 

 

-My four favorite moments from the book (unranked) : 

 

—“Send me back…”

—The entire Jeanna Krole part. 

—The Imperial Fist ordered to guard High Primary Neeberand:  when he realizes that Neeberand realizes its a suicide mission, but is going anyways….and that his orders are to keep Neeberand alive no matter what…so he steps onto the transport as well. 

—Kintsugi 

 

 

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Part 4

Thoughts and closing

 

Dan Abnett supposedly said that this was the hardest book for him yet to write, because it’s so packed with people and places and things and themes. I feel him since even this review I write feels the same way…there’s just so much going on and so much of it is good. I don’t know if I can call it great, but there’s just so much good that it’s taken me a week to get even this pointless review typed up. 

 

Dan Abnett factor:

Hidden Content

Abnett is a bit of a divisive figure in the 40k community. The reputation is that he produces awesome stuff, but tends to just go off and do it own thing, that he “disrespects established lore.” 

 

For me, Saturnine is the most Dan Abnett-y of books. If you love him you’ll love this and if you don’t like him, well, you’ll find even more ammo to load your displeasure-gun with. 

 

I have to say I love him. If he were a chef, and was tasked with making a stereotypical Thanksgiving meal as portrayed in all the movies, he would make Asian-fusion potatoes instead of mashed potatoes, a Mexican mole-sauce smoke turkey instead of just a roasted turkey, and so on. Regardless of how you feel about it, you’ll remark “I never thought of Thanksgiving this way….”

 

For some, that is ruinous. Understandably so. Sometimes you just want Grandma’s traditional recipe (I often fall into that camp). But at the end of the day, I like that change. The unexpected. The stuff that stops and makes you think and have to focus for a moment. 

 

…and to be honest, Saturnine is just as “pure” in its 40k-ness as it is “disruptive” to its 40k heritage. Sanguinius is Sanguinius-ier than ever. The Khan is super Khan-y. Dorn is the most Dornified as I’ve seen him. Yet that is counter-weighted by the injection of Erda and that whole dialogue, of stopping the action to conduct interviews in prison with someone complaining about the lingering socio-economic inequality. A complaint of mine about previous entries in the SoT was just that: in the biggest battle in human history, how can anyone have time to do anything other than survive? 

 

Many have also commented on the Khan’s use of the word “” during a specific scene. It is particularly jarring. Perhaps it is the effect of the audiobook, but it is very striking how it is delivered. However, I think it is deliberate. It is meant to create that dissonance. We the readers are meant to feel as taken aback and tossed off as the mortals hearing the Khan say it are. The feeling of being dismissed and disrespected is, I believe, intentional. I get why others would see it as inappropriate, but in a meta sort of way, I feel that was the point. 

 

Those contradictions and more are what makes Saturnine so very Dan-Abnett-y and in my personal opinion, a worthwhile journey to embark on. 

 

The Blood Angels factor:

Hidden Content

Being the BA fanboy that I am, I have to comment about them. 

 

-Is Bel Sepitus (sp?), the guy who leads the BA contingent in the ambush kill-teams a Crimson Paladin? A Sanguinary Guard? A term of I have never heard before is used to describe the unit he leads, it sounds almost like Katatoni or such, but that is something I have never heard before. In Black Book VIII: Malevolence, the BA’s FIrst Sphere is described as having the Ikrisat (Sanguinary Guard), Keruvim (Crimson Paladins), and the Ofanim (Burning Eyes). I get the impression that they were supposed to be “Keruvim” and Abnett got his terminology wrong (whether his fault or just a general disconnect between departments of GW), but Bel Sepitus is described as using a jump pack at one point….so they I thought they were Sanguinary Guard. It’s an admittedly Comic Book Guy level critique, but if I don’t raise the point, who will? It’s also an example of how people bashing the book for its lore inconsistencies are not off base and I understand where they are coming from. 

 

-Sanguinius felt good in this. Not great, but there was an even-keeled portrayal to him that I feel we have not seen in sometime. In contrast to my criticism of the “telling, not showing” quality to the Dorn vs Fulgrim fight, we get—for the first time it feels—the full on “show, not tell” experience of his visions. What it’s like for him, the overpowering nature, how he can’t even hear the raging battle 10ft away because of how debilitating they are. Yet also how insightful and how they make him a strategic asset. 

 

-Raldoron likewise came off well, but not too well. That’s a plus. He comes across as the unifier, the person sent to keep morale up…not through rallying speeches, but rather through calm demeanor and honest evaluations and reports to other commanders. He thus comes across as someone you can trust. I like it…nothing flashy. 

 

-Dominion Zephon…..we barely knew ye. 

 

 

If you made it through all of the above, thank you. Simply put, Saturnine is a helluva ride. If this is what Dan Abnett has for his warmup/halfway through the series entry…what are we in-store for in the finale? 

 

I struggle to give this one a score in my arbitrary numerical ranking system…it’s got so much to it. There’s so much good, and so much good that is totally unexpected. On the other hand, there are some things that feel off and a bit out of place. Like a bowl of mustard served with pizza. At the end of the day though, there’s just too much happening and too much of it is good—even if it’s not great—for any fan to miss. Like Horus Rising, you simply have to read it. and for that reason it gets a 9/10. 

 

The Solar War: 7.5/10

The Lost and the Damned: 5/10

The First Wall: 6.5/10

Saturnine: 9/10

Edited August 21, 2020 by Indefragable

[Darkwrath121]

(snip)

 

Regarding Bel Sepatus, he's the Captain-Paladin of the Keruvim according to the Dramatis Personæ. So yeah, crimson paladins.

 

Way I see it, they're not afraid to shed their terminator armour when need be. So that's how I choose to justify the wargear choices. Surprising as they may be for the mission.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Darkwrath121

[Indefragable]

 

(snip)

 

Regarding Bel Sepatus, he's the Captain-Paladin of the Keruvim according to the Dramatis Personæ. So yeah, crimson paladins.

 

Way I see it, they're not afraid to shed their terminator armour when need be. So that's how I choose to justify the wargear choices. Surprising as they may be for the mission.

Appreciate the clarification. Audible does not provide the dramatis personae. And the way the narrator says it, it’s sounds he’s saying “Kataphroni” or something...definitely not “Keruvim.” Can you confirm how it’s spelled in the narrative text itself?

[Scribe]

*** stifles unbecoming screeching ***

 

Ahem. I believe what you reference (Sang/Angron) took place.

 

They connect and mentally/vision style, stare each other down. I can find a page reference if you like.

 

As to the rest (and I did read it) I cannot possibly agree on much of it.

 

He certainly did inject his Perpetual creation straight into the marrow of a setting they have part in though. As you say he seems to wish to have them be central to the story.

[Darkwrath121]

 

 

(snip)

 

Regarding Bel Sepatus, he's the Captain-Paladin of the Keruvim according to the Dramatis Personæ. So yeah, crimson paladins.

 

Way I see it, they're not afraid to shed their terminator armour when need be. So that's how I choose to justify the wargear choices. Surprising as they may be for the mission.

Appreciate the clarification. Audible does not provide the dramatis personae. And the way the narrator says it, it’s sounds he’s saying “Kataphroni” or something...definitely not “Keruvim.” Can you confirm how it’s spelled in the narrative text itself?

Katechon. The second squad of the Crimson Paladins. When they first appear they're in cataphractii, so Abnett didn't forget. Bel made the wargear decision, it seems.

[Sothalor]

The Dramatis Personae entry for Bel Sepatus lists him as "Captain-Paladin of the Keruvim Host".

 

Which incidentally, is a frickin' awesome title.

[Moonreaper666]

I think that Magnus is not contributing a lot in the siege because of his alternative motives. The Novella Wrath of Magnus would expand on that.

Still, I want to see the Traitor Primarchs actually be very badass and actually show off just how powerful they have become

I don't want the Fulgrim vs Dorn fight to be repeated with other Primarch fights in the Siege. Dorn 'won' only because Fulgrim didn't take him seriously. Mortarion, Magnus and Angron should be outright be dominating their fights against the Loyalist Primarchs during the Siege

Is it possible that the 'Kibre' we know throughout the HH and present was actually the Aphotic Daemon all along and that Kibre is just one host who died at Saturnine. Find it strange that Abaddon distrusts Daemons yet his second-in-command for over ten millenia is a Daemon. Many SoH vets have made deals with Daemons and the Dark Gods in Solar War. Wished that the SoH vets had Daemon weapons or minor beneficial warp corruption at Saturnine

9k defenders vs Angron and the World Eaters (admittedly there were many more Loyalist reinforcements to Saturnine port but most of them were killed in the journey) even if Dorn and his kill-teams were assigned to the Spaceport they would have all died

I find it odd that neither the SoH and the Kill-Teams deck everyone out in Terminator Armor. The fight would have been more even as the SoH groups wouldn't be as isolated from one another and it would mitigate the element of surprise the Kill-teams had. The SoH vets died way too easily compared to who they were in Solar War

Still find it odd that Slaanesh-cultists didn't join the EC in their attack. Those three ships were big enough to accomodate thousands of Lost plus the EC's warp-teleportation would have allowed them to bring in hundreds of Cultists that way. After all, if Perturabo and Abaddon were worried that the EC might abadon the siege then wouldn't they also worry that certain elements of the Lost would bail as well?

Surprised that Abaddon and Perturabo did not contact Magnus and the Apostle of the Unspeaking to give Daemonic support to Fulgrim once they realized the entire EC is committed to attack

Funnily, had a Traitor Primarch joined Abaddon in his underground sneak attack the Traitors would have won the Heresy. Perturabo would have easily crushed the kill-teams and destroyed the Aegis

Daemons are in good behaviour as shown in Solar War. They only attacked the Loyalist ships.

[Scribe]

*** stifles unbecoming screeching ***

 

Ahem. I believe what you reference (Sang/Angron) took place.

 

They connect and mentally/vision style, stare each other down. I can find a page reference if you like.

This is page 399 BTW. One of the better scenes in the book.

 

Of course, this is a canonical event, but even this he had to change. :)

[Indefragable]

*** stifles unbecoming screeching ***

 

Ahem. I believe what you reference (Sang/Angron) took place.

 

They connect and mentally/vision style, stare each other down. I can find a page reference if you like.

This is page 399 BTW. One of the better scenes in the book.

 

Of course, this is a canonical event, but even this he had to change.

 

The original Bill King (I think that

Edited August 22, 2020 by Kelborn

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

*** stifles unbecoming screeching ***

 

Ahem. I believe what you reference (Sang/Angron) took place.

 

They connect and mentally/vision style, stare each other down. I can find a page reference if you like.

 

As to the rest (and I did read it) I cannot possibly agree on much of it.

 

He certainly did inject his Perpetual creation straight into the marrow of a setting they have part in though. As you say he seems to wish to have them be central to the story.

I have not been a fan of the Perpetuals either.

 

However, this one changed my mind a bit. I reference that scene with Obi Wan because I feel that had the controversial Saturnine scene come up earlier in the series (both HH and SoT), I think there would be a different perspective on things.

 

I have a feeling we are being setup for something quite grand and the role they play is yet to come and will come together as things progress. Again, I have not been a fan of them either, but this is starting to give me hope about how it all comes together.

The Siege is like the last days of the Perpetuals. At least their relevance in lore like a last dance. Like a certain Sabaton song (paraphrasing) when the new meets the old, the old will go out with a bang

 

The GK have one in their ranks but he is not important. If he ever fights someone who can bypass his immortality he is as good as dead

[DarkChaplain]

If he ever fights someone who can bypass his immortality he is as good as dead

 

 

And people die when they are killed.

[Kelborn]

Except Vulkan! *stomp stomp*

 

 

 

 

Damn, I couldn't resist....

[Scribe]

 

However, this one changed my mind a bit. I reference that scene with Obi Wan because I feel that had the controversial Saturnine scene come up earlier in the series (both HH and SoT), I think there would be a different perspective on things.

 

I have a feeling we are being setup for something quite grand and the role they play is yet to come and will come together as things progress. Again, I have not been a fan of them either, but this is starting to give me hope about how it all comes together.

 

 

I dont want to harp on this forever but...this is kind of my point.

 

He's injected something unneeded, that didnt exist, that does not even tie in with the rest of the setting or game (and this IS tie in fiction) and for what?

 

He's (seemingly) changed the Sang/Angron stare down to now be a Vision/Beyond Time and Space astral plane stare down...for what?

 

Because he simply cannot help himself, and just hit the damn story beats.

 

I dont want Perpetuals to be a grand part of anything, we have 2-3 books left no? The only way they can be something grand at that point, is if they absolutely dominate one of the books, and if its the last one???

 

I'll be inconsolable. 

[Moonreaper666]

 

If he ever fights someone who can bypass his immortality he is as good as dead

And people die when they are killed.

Find it interesting about John's remark that he first arrived six months too late. So without him and Oll Perrson Horus kills the Emperor and conquers the Galaxy.

 

Guess the Chaos Gods are fine keeping Horus as their champion so long as he permanently kills the Emperor. Reminds me of the Alpha Legion's MO: So long as the end result fits within the mission parameters

Edited August 23, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead
off topic

[Fedor]

That was a great review indy, agree with much of it however i can't get on board with the Bold Claim part. Within the framework you lay out there are little bits and pieces throughout plenty of BL books (including plenty of other Abnett ) that could be analysed in such a way as to claim a genuinely literary statement has been made. I don't see anyone actually doing that for one as making a bold claim, so much as something that has no value that couldn't be achieved by simply saying there was some good writing in here that made me think about xyz, without sticking in the claim to academic authority of what real literature is.