Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett

[DukeLeto69]

@indefragable awesome review frater. Seriously awesome.

 

Makes me wanna read this NOW but I promised myself to read LotD, TFW & Saturnine back-to-back and needed to clear my reading pile before embarking on that epic journey.

 

Then BL releases Bloodlines which jumped to top of pile (seriously very good, am on chapter 13) then Avenging Son (which I was sceptical about until reading thoughts on here and now a must read too sitting on the shelf).

 

Kudos for the thought and eloquence that went into your post. Your “worldview” of BL and Abnett chimes with mine. He remains my favourite BL author but has flaws/imperfections.

[Petitioner's City]

On Jenetia Krole's invisibility, in Avenging Son

 

it is noted that the Sisters of Silence are also very hard to see - a baseline human, one of the main characters, finds it hard to see the Sisters, just as with Krole in Saturnine. A new facet of being a pariah, planned across releases - or maybe it's old lore :)

Edited August 25, 2020 by Petitioner's City

[DukeLeto69]

I mean it's kind of one of my issues with the setting. Is the tragedy what Abnett covers in the afterword?

 

Humanity needs their faith, even if that really just means Hell is real?

 

That Lorgar was right?

 

That the Imperial Truth was always just a lie?

 

That the entire crusade was built on a falsehood?

 

I mean as a forever Chaos player that simple rings as pure as it gets. :p

Well if it turns out the Emperor really was just a big lying douche bag it does achieve one thing...

 

It annoys the hell out of the TT players who believe the Imperium are the good guys and their regime is something to aspire to!

On Jenetia Krole's invisibility, in Avenging Son

 

it is noted that the Sisters of Silence are also very hard to see - a baseline human, one of the main characters, finds it hard to see the Sisters, just as with Krole in Saturnine. A new facet of being a pariah, planned across releases - or maybe it's old lore :)

Hmmm wonder if that will factor into Abnett’s Bequin books?

[Blindhamster]

 

I mean it's kind of one of my issues with the setting. Is the tragedy what Abnett covers in the afterword?

 

Humanity needs their faith, even if that really just means Hell is real?

 

That Lorgar was right?

 

That the Imperial Truth was always just a lie?

 

That the entire crusade was built on a falsehood?

 

I mean as a forever Chaos player that simple rings as pure as it gets.

Well if it turns out the Emperor really was just a big lying douche bag it does achieve one thing...

 

It annoys the hell out of the TT players who believe the Imperium are the good guys and their regime is something to aspire to!

On Jenetia Krole's invisibility, in Avenging Son

 

it is noted that the Sisters of Silence are also very hard to see - a baseline human, one of the main characters, finds it hard to see the Sisters, just as with Krole in Saturnine. A new facet of being a pariah, planned across releases - or maybe it's old lore

Hmmm wonder if that will factor into Abnett’s Bequin books?

 

nah, there is a difference between knowing religion is needed and hell is real and making a deal with the devil so to speak. Comparatively the loyalists are still the good guys, its just that really neither is "good", and the "good guys" original ethos was built on a lie - but at least when they came to know the truth, they didn't give in to the temptations of the warp.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

I mean it's kind of one of my issues with the setting. Is the tragedy what Abnett covers in the afterword?

 

Humanity needs their faith, even if that really just means Hell is real?

 

That Lorgar was right?

 

That the Imperial Truth was always just a lie?

 

That the entire crusade was built on a falsehood?

 

I mean as a forever Chaos player that simple rings as pure as it gets.

Well if it turns out the Emperor really was just a big lying douche bag it does achieve one thing...

 

It annoys the hell out of the TT players who believe the Imperium are the good guys and their regime is something to aspire to!

On Jenetia Krole's invisibility, in Avenging Son

 

it is noted that the Sisters of Silence are also very hard to see - a baseline human, one of the main characters, finds it hard to see the Sisters, just as with Krole in Saturnine. A new facet of being a pariah, planned across releases - or maybe it's old lore

Hmmm wonder if that will factor into Abnett’s Bequin books?

 

nah, there is a difference between knowing religion is needed and hell is real and making a deal with the devil so to speak. Comparatively the loyalists are still the good guys, its just that really neither is "good", and the "good guys" original ethos was built on a lie - but at least when they came to know the truth, they didn't give in to the temptations of the warp.

 

i get that most of us would choose to live on ultramar than sicarus

 

but are there any 40k books that lean into chaos being a good thing? into the positives of rebellion and anti authoritarianism and rock 'n roll? where the imperium is clearly the seven and chaos are the boys?

[smileyjim]

Great review and I agree with almost all. The one bit I really disliked was the dorn, fulgrim fight.

 

Fulgrim was meant to be one of the best fighters, and correct me if I'm wrong way better than dorn. Not only that but now he's a deamon prince. It felt like dorn was fighting a baseline human in the ease that he batted him away.

 

Another bugbear I have is more of a general HH one but nicely shown in this. The goodies do too well, their plot armour seems a tad too thick. I mean in named characters the traitors lost a sack full and loyalists 1/2? I hope this is evened out a lot in the last few books. The one thing I love about 40k is no one is good, every position is flawed. All the 'nice goodies' are genocidal :cusss to a man but more and more in the final books they give off a GI Joe vibe, probably just the number of IFs running around or how many seem to be generalised copies of loken. He was great at the start, as the books went on.... not so much.

[b1soul]

"Fulgrim was meant to be one of the best fighters, and correct me if I'm wrong way better than dorn."

 

You're wrong in that Dorn is no slouch

 

The odds between two primarchs is never going to be like 9-1 (unless it's something Horus vs. weak pathetic Lorgar)

[Indefragable]

 

<snip>

 

but are there any 40k books that lean into chaos being a good thing? into the positives of rebellion and anti authoritarianism and rock 'n roll? where the imperium is clearly the seven and chaos are the boys?

 

 

I can not think of any stories like that. I think the point though is the whole Slaves to Darkness thing: Chaos is corrupting and overwhelming. You always have to pay up in that Faustian bargain. The pitch of the setting:

 

to live in such times is to live under the most cruel regime in human history...

 

...but all there shall be is eternal war and the laughter of thirsting gods...

 

...says that you're stuck between a rock and hard place: be an expendable bullet in the inhuman war machine of the Imperium, or give your soul to Chaos for a fleeting moment of power. The setting pretty much lays out those are the options*.  I'll have the chicken, please. 

 

*unless you're kenos in which case it's just "survival" 

 

Great review and I agree with almost all. The one bit I really disliked was the dorn, fulgrim fight.

 

Fulgrim was meant to be one of the best fighters, and correct me if I'm wrong way better than dorn. Not only that but now he's a deamon prince. It felt like dorn was fighting a baseline human in the ease that he batted him away.

 

Another bugbear I have is more of a general HH one but nicely shown in this. The goodies do too well, their plot armour seems a tad too thick. I mean in named characters the traitors lost a sack full and loyalists 1/2? I hope this is evened out a lot in the last few books. The one thing I love about 40k is no one is good, every position is flawed. All the 'nice goodies' are genocidal :cusss to a man but more and more in the final books they give off a GI Joe vibe, probably just the number of IFs running around or how many seem to be generalised copies of loken. He was great at the start, as the books went on.... not so much.

 

I agree. It felt airy, no weight to it. I'm less disappointed in the fact that Dorn "won" so much as how it happened. It was like Rocky went out and manhandled Apollo Creed with a few punches in Rocky (as opposed to Rocky II + ). 

 

"Fulgrim was meant to be one of the best fighters, and correct me if I'm wrong way better than dorn."

 

You're wrong in that Dorn is no slouch

 

The odds between two primarchs is never going to be like 9-1 (unless it's something Horus vs. weak pathetic Lorgar)

Yes, Dorn is no slouch. Even his rules in 30k are quite good because they are subtle in their 1:1 capability. That being said, Fulgrim's whole shtick is that he an incredible duelist, among-if-not-THE-best of the Primarchs. Dorn slaps him silly with maybe one scratch in return. 

 

As I say above, it's not what happened so much as how and why it happened. Turn the tables around. Imagine if Fulgrim proved to be so supremely gifted a commander that he just waltzed into the palace effortlessly in a day after Perturabo and Horus have been trying for months to get a single crack in. That's basically the equivalent of the upset that Dorn pulls with his fight against (up-daemoned) Fulgrim. 

 

...once again, it's how it happens that is so upsetting. There is very little drama, very little concern for Dorn during the whole thing. THere's not even a moment of "uh oh, Dorn is overconfident here...this feels like Fulgrim is toying with him" until the very end when Fulgrim pulls his predictable "I'm bored shtick." 

 

IMHO, how it would have come off a bit better is that if:

 

A. Dorn knows he's going to have the fight of his life against Fulgrim, but goes anyways since it's about buying time for what he thinks is a kill shot on Horus himself.

B. Fulgrim has the upper hand and Dorn's skill is shown that he can hang on (kind of like Guilliman vs both Angron AND Lorgar in Betrayer: it's remarkable that he even survived, let alone held on as long as he did) in that matchup. 

C. Fulgrim is winning and then Dorn mentions that the plan has failed in which case Fulgrim gives up even though he is winning, b/c what's the point of it then? 

D. Dorn takes a knee and pants for a moment after it's over. Just a single moment to show that like....this was a title bout and not just a punching bag. 

E. any of the above

 

 

[Scribe]

The Dorn/Fulgrim, I think can be waved away as Fulgrim simply not caring.

 

He just heals himself up and floats away into a warp portal (in and of itself that's dumb, but it's probably a nod to Unremembered Empire, I seem to think that happened there too...)

 

Fulgrim and the EC have no skin in the fight, they no longer care for the objective.

 

Easy to not give your all when you can't die, you are eternal, and your just in it for the laughs.

[Moonreaper666]

The Dorn/Fulgrim, I think can be waved away as Fulgrim simply not caring.

 

He just heals himself up and floats away into a warp portal (in and of itself that's dumb, but it's probably a nod to Unremembered Empire, I seem to think that happened there too...)

 

Fulgrim and the EC have no skin in the fight, they no longer care for the objective.

 

Easy to not give your all when you can't die, you are eternal, and your just in it for the laughs.

Considering when Fulgrim later curbstomps Guilliman and the Ultramarines yeah Dorn and the Imperial Fists GOT REAL LUCKY. Surprised that Horus or the Chaos Gods didn't tell Fulgrim to destroy Dorn and his sons and thus winning the Siege then abd there

 

What is interesting about the Saturnine ploy is that

 

It was All For Nothing the first time around. Without John Grammaticus and Oll Perrson Horus still wins the Siege! The first time around John arrived on Terra six months too late and saw the carnage done in the aftermath of Horus' victory.

 

What I like in Solar War that wasn't in Saturnine was that the White Scars' tactics were not perfect. Abaddon used one of his ships as bait to lure out Jubla Khan and kill him. The White Scars are unplausibly OP in Saturnine

 

I hope that in Chris Wraight's book their tactics are turned against them by Mortarion and the Death Guard the same way Warmaster Abaddon did in the 13th Black Crusade. Conceal true size of your army untik the White Scars can't stop the charge then engage them in a brutal close-fight

[Scribe]

 

Surprised that Horus or the Chaos Gods didn't tell Fulgrim to destroy Dorn and his sons and thus winning the Siege then abd there

 

 

'So too Angron. The World Eaters, like the Emperor's Children, as you say, could win this outright. But they are wild, and will not be commanded. They do as they will, capricious as storms.'

 

- Sanguinius, Page 534.

[Fedor]

Fulgrim as a daemon primarch is not the same character as the standard version.

 

He's got no real edge or stake in the conflict anymore. Lorgar had to bind him to even get him to initially return to it. The Dorn confrontation has me hoping we don't actually get a the Khan vs Fulgrim confrontation that was mentioned a few years ago, at least in a traditional fighty manner. Hard to think where the authors could really take it now, with Mortarion being the more interesting foe by far after Scars, Path of heaven etc...

[b1soul]

I'm surprised Sigismind wasn't shredded, or at least badly hurt, by the dozens of EC elite when he fought with Dorn back to back...many of them, including Eidolon, had sonic attacks at their disposal.

 

Dan's a great writer, but I feel certain other writers put more thought into their work. Dan's all about free flowing ideas and punchy execution IMO.

[Scribe]

I'm not sure why this line of discussion continues. There are enough references to the fact that he doesnt die at Terra. They would not be so bold as to retcon that, its a future model they can sell, why would they?

[DarkChaplain]

They even made sure Vulkan could both "die" at Isstvan and still be at the Codex discussion table post-Heresy, where before the old fluff was contradictory at best. I don't see them killing off the Khan here, just as I don't think they'll okay the execution of Lorgar - something I really never understood certain fans and even authors desiring, anyway. Heck, I even take issue with Lorgar not being at Terra right now, despite old lore clearly depicting him as a Daemon Primarch on Terran soil.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Sigismund is supposed to be a step or two above the other Great Warriors...just not a league above them.

 

It's quite obvious from First Wall that

by giving themselves to Chaos, the likes of Khârn have gained a major advantage over Sigismund and other loyalist champions...another example would be Skraivok's Daemonsword giving him a marked advantage against Raldoron in LatD.

 

Interested in how another another authour executes the idea of Sigismund ascending to become the Emperor's Champion. Is the Emperor going to bless him or is Keeler going to unlock his faith and fury? Have to avoid it being hokey, like an RPG power-up

 

 

 

Perhaps Sigismund follows Lokens path.  The lines between psyker and the faithful are getting blurry.  Maybe the Black sword is more force then 'relic'.  Perhaps all that psyker hate is hypocritic, or a cover.  There is a curios amount of interaction between these two, startingin Horus Rising.  Their 11th hour conversation could be even more loaded with hidden meaning then even a fanatic like me could hope for.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

Sigismund is supposed to be a step or two above the other Great Warriors...just not a league above them.

 

It's quite obvious from First Wall that

by giving themselves to Chaos, the likes of Khârn have gained a major advantage over Sigismund and other loyalist champions...another example would be Skraivok's Daemonsword giving him a marked advantage against Raldoron in LatD.

 

Interested in how another another authour executes the idea of Sigismund ascending to become the Emperor's Champion. Is the Emperor going to bless him or is Keeler going to unlock his faith and fury? Have to avoid it being hokey, like an RPG power-up

 

 

Perhaps Sigismund follows Lokens path. The lines between psyker and the faithful are getting blurry. Maybe the Black sword is more force then 'relic'. Perhaps all that psyker hate is hypocritic, or a cover. There is a curios amount of interaction between these two, startingin Horus Rising. Their 11th hour conversation could be even more loaded with hidden meaning then even a fanatic like me could hope for.

And yet he fought and died like a normal Space Marine against Abaddon. Khârn has never died once (not sure if he died at First Wall) and he killed the weakling Saint Celestine (who has died millions of time). Faith for the most part is blind-folly in Warhammer.

 

In Last Chancers: Armageddon Saints, a handful of Khorne Berserkers decimated a few hundred Sisters of Battle along with the Last Chancers. Kinda wished the World Eaters in Saturnine were just as effective as those in LC:AS and Dawn of Fire (Only read the first-third of the Ebook but the Astartes are more competent there than in Saturnine)

 

Kinda wish Abnett had some influence on First Wall. He would have made the Zenobia Free Corps into the Traitor Gaunt's Ghosts and have them decimate thousands of Loyalists Solar Auxilia and dozens of Imperial Fists Astartes. The Zenobia Free Corps would then have the 'honor' of joining the EC in their mission in Saturnine

[Fire Golem]

 

 

Sigismund is supposed to be a step or two above the other Great Warriors...just not a league above them.

 

It's quite obvious from First Wall that

by giving themselves to Chaos, the likes of Khârn have gained a major advantage over Sigismund and other loyalist champions...another example would be Skraivok's Daemonsword giving him a marked advantage against Raldoron in LatD.

 

Interested in how another another authour executes the idea of Sigismund ascending to become the Emperor's Champion. Is the Emperor going to bless him or is Keeler going to unlock his faith and fury? Have to avoid it being hokey, like an RPG power-up

 

 

Perhaps Sigismund follows Lokens path. The lines between psyker and the faithful are getting blurry. Maybe the Black sword is more force then 'relic'. Perhaps all that psyker hate is hypocritic, or a cover. There is a curios amount of interaction between these two, startingin Horus Rising. Their 11th hour conversation could be even more loaded with hidden meaning then even a fanatic like me could hope for.

And yet he fought and died like a normal Space Marine against Abaddon. Khârn has never died once (not sure if he died at First Wall) and he killed the weakling Saint Celestine (who has died millions of time). Faith for the most part is blind-folly in Warhammer.

 

In Last Chancers: Armageddon Saints, a handful of Khorne Berserkers decimated a few hundred Sisters of Battle along with the Last Chancers. Kinda wished the World Eaters in Saturnine were just as effective as those in LC:AS and Dawn of Fire (Only read the first-third of the Ebook but the Astartes are more competent there than in Saturnine)

 

Kinda wish Abnett had some influence on First Wall. He would have made the Zenobia Free Corps into the Traitor Gaunt's Ghosts and have them decimate thousands of Loyalists Solar Auxilia and dozens of Imperial Fists Astartes. The Zenobia Free Corps would then have the 'honor' of joining the EC in their mission in Saturnine

 

No, he wouldn’t. 

[Kelborn]

Nor does it have to do with Saturnine at all.

 

Back to topic

[Scribe]

Kelborn, dub me Moderati Scribe, and the needful will be done. ;)

[Indefragable]

@Scribe and others who feel less than positively overall about Saturnine :

 

What were the good parts, if any and why (in your humble opinions)?

 

 

Also, I give permission to the community to smack me if they catch me snooping around the threads for whatever book 5 ends up being. I said I wouldn’t read spoilers for The Solar War but I did. Then I said the same about LatD, but read spoilers anyways. And then the same with The First Wall. And now with Saturnine. I am annoyed at myself for giving in and to the reddit types who reduce these books to one liners. It doesn’t do them justice by any means, and—whether you like them or not—the actual controversial sections are so much more with so much more context then the 2 sentence reddit spoilers.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Indefragable

[Kelborn]

Kelborn, dub me Moderati Scribe, and the needful will be done. ;)

Hahahahaha

 

 

 

No :P

[Scribe]

@Scribe and others who feel less than positively overall about Saturnine :

 

What were the good parts, if any and why (in your humble opinions)?

.

Everything about the Piers arc, unless his last stand is the formation of the Ollanius Guard legend.

 

I think this is actually the 'point' of the novel if you have to pick one.

 

Abaddon and his play for an Astartes win, and a clean death.

 

The vision sequence between Angron and Sanguinius.

 

The Diaz scene at the bridge.

 

So, 1 story arc, and a few set pieces.

[smileyjim]

I'm surprised Sigismind wasn't shredded, or at least badly hurt, by the dozens of EC elite when he fought with Dorn back to back...many of them, including Eidolon, had sonic attacks at their disposal.

 

Dan's a great writer, but I feel certain other writers put more thought into their work. Dan's all about free flowing ideas and punchy execution IMO.

Exactly, its just invincible shields on a bunch of goodies while they wade through hordes of their peers who have suddenly got the fighting skills of potatoes.

 

We know sigismond survives but he doesn't have to do it while killing half the opposing army without spilling his never ending cup of earl grey.

 

I'm actually starting to dread the end of this all if this type of thing continues. The loyalists only win because horus drops the shields but they way this feels like its going a good 90% of named loyalists will waltz through while 90% of tractors die.

 

And yeah, its not that dorn won it was how ridiculously easily he won a fight that realistically he could never win anyway... though I'm sure earl grey would have saved him, probably bringing some scones with him too ;)

[smileyjim]

There was a lot to like, bunch of nice set pieces, more so the scars and IG side of things. Abbadon was great as where the conversations between the primarchs, other than dorn and fulgrim.

 

It is on the whole a great book and the best in the siege of terra so far. Each one has been better than the last so I'm hoping they continue that trend.