Gabriel Seth & Flesh Tearers News! (12/06/2019)

[Aothaine]

 

Flesh tearers have been getting a lot of attention for a long time. They're about as storied as black templars honestly. With their parent chapter placing a lot or trust in them for a long time now.

 

I must have been blinded by warp storms then. :/ I've always thought of them more as Novamarines. There but not really highlighted.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

Flesh tearers have been getting a lot of attention for a long time. They're about as storied as black templars honestly. With their parent chapter placing a lot or trust in them for a long time now.

 

I must have been blinded by warp storms then. :/ I've always thought of them more as Novamarines. There but not really highlighted.

 

 

The have a lot of short stories available, they feature in quite a lot of the blood angels own novels and even have a couple of shorts of their own. They also featured heavily in the supplements around devastation of baal. Id wager they've had about as much rules content as black templars since templars stopped being in their own book, and they probably have not much different content from Black Library.

 

Dante and Seth are on pretty good terms generally, Seth is usually portrayed as having a lot of respect for Dante and Dante has a lot of trust in Seth, their relationship is really cool to see in the novels usually.

 

Interested to see what info we get in the upcoming stuff!

Edited November 29, 2019 by Blindhamster

[Indefragable]

 

 

 

Flesh tearers have been getting a lot of attention for a long time. They're about as storied as black templars honestly. With their parent chapter placing a lot or trust in them for a long time now.

 

I must have been blinded by warp storms then. :/ I've always thought of them more as Novamarines. There but not really highlighted.

 

 

The have a lot of short stories available, they feature in quite a lot of the blood angels own novels and even have a couple of shorts of their own. They also featured heavily in the supplements around devastation of baal. Id wager they've had about as much rules content as black templars since templars stopped being in their own book, and they probably have not much different content from Black Library.

 

Dante and Seth are on pretty good terms generally, Seth is usually portrayed as having a lot of respect for Dante and Dante has a lot of trust in Seth, their relationship is really cool to see in the novels usually.

 

Interested to see what info we get in the upcoming stuff!

 

 

Hunger is a must listen for all Flesh Tearers fans (and genuinely any fan of any sons of Sanguinius). This is the closest thing to GW-sanctioned Angry Marines there will be

 

My favorite part is how the Chaplain  gets the Death Company Dreadnought to listen...

 

...he uses a Power Fist!

 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Indefragable

[Panzer]

Seth and Dante kinda have been buddies for a while now. Seth needs Dante to keep him in check and Dante needs Seth to remind him that not every successor is like the parent chapter and because he get's things done. So Blood Angels and Flesh Tearers are closer than the other successor chapters.

 

In Devastation of Baal Dante even gave Seth the last Feather of Sanguinius with a drop of the Primarchs blood on it to keep safe. Also he stationed the Flesh Tearers and Seth on the moon where he knew the Knights of Blood set up away from the others despite knowing Seth hates them, presumably to give Seth a subtle nudge that he has to slow down and not let his chapter fall to the Red Thirst the same way the Knights of Blood did (the Feather also calms down any Marine of Sanguinius' blood so that's probably another reason why he gave it to Seth at that time).

Edited November 29, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Aothaine]

Seth and Dante kinda have been buddies for a while now. Seth needs Dante to keep him in check and Dante needs Seth to remind him that not every successor is like the parent chapter and because he get's things done. So Blood Angels and Flesh Tearers are closer than the other successor chapters.

 

In Devastation of Baal Dante even gave Seth the last Feather of Sanguinius with a drop of the Primarchs blood on it to keep safe. Also he stationed the Flesh Tearers and Seth on the moon where he knew the Knights of Blood set up away from the others despite knowing Seth hates them, presumably to give Seth a subtle nudge that he has to slow down and not let his chapter fall to the Red Thirst the same way the Knights of Blood did (the Feather also calms down any Marine of Sanguinius' blood so that's probably another reason why he gave it to Seth at that time).

 

Interesting. I suppose I need to read more of the books. From DoB I took that Seth respected Dante but was not afraid to speak out against him if he thought Dante was making mistakes.  I'll have to look into this more for sure. But you are spot on. Dante does trust Seth and wanted to help keep him and the Flesh Tearers alive. Otherwise, why give him that relic?

 

 

 

Hunger is a must listen for all Flesh Tearers fans (and genuinely any fan of any sons of Sanguinius). This is the closest thing to GW-sanctioned Angry Marines there will be

 

I'll look into it and hopefully pick it up this holiday. Love learning more about the Flesh Tearers.

 

 

 

The have a lot of short stories available, they feature in quite a lot of the blood angels own novels and even have a couple of shorts of their own. They also featured heavily in the supplements around devastation of baal. Id wager they've had about as much rules content as black templars since templars stopped being in their own book, and they probably have not much different content from Black Library.

 

Dante and Seth are on pretty good terms generally, Seth is usually portrayed as having a lot of respect for Dante and Dante has a lot of trust in Seth, their relationship is really cool to see in the novels usually.

 

Interested to see what info we get in the upcoming stuff!

 

I suppose the interaction that really stuck with me between them was at the end of DoB. Seth seems to like Dante, disapproves a little about his appearance, doubts himself and his chapter, but wants to prove himself worthy to Dante. Kind of like a competing younger brother. But he speaks his mind, albeit in private, to Dante. Something that I didn't feel any of the other chapter masters would do. To me it gave Seth the appearance of a loyal attack dog that might be starting to show signs of going wild(Black Rage). I know all the chapters have to fight against the Black Rage, but that fight just feels different with the Flesh Tearers. Almost like they are a candle at the end of the wick, ready to be snuffed out any moment. Though that is a lot more unlikely now that primaris have filled the ranks. I hope we get a lot of lore and perspective from these angles in the upcoming books. 

 

Really enjoy the education btw. :D I really do love the Flesh Tearers.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

 

 

The have a lot of short stories available, they feature in quite a lot of the blood angels own novels and even have a couple of shorts of their own. They also featured heavily in the supplements around devastation of baal. Id wager they've had about as much rules content as black templars since templars stopped being in their own book, and they probably have not much different content from Black Library.

 

Dante and Seth are on pretty good terms generally, Seth is usually portrayed as having a lot of respect for Dante and Dante has a lot of trust in Seth, their relationship is really cool to see in the novels usually.

 

Interested to see what info we get in the upcoming stuff!

 

I suppose the interaction that really stuck with me between them was at the end of DoB. Seth seems to like Dante, disapproves a little about his appearance, doubts himself and his chapter, but wants to prove himself worthy to Dante. Kind of like a competing younger brother. But he speaks his mind, albeit in private, to Dante. Something that I didn't feel any of the other chapter masters would do. To me it gave Seth the appearance of a loyal attack dog that might be starting to show signs of going wild(Black Rage). I know all the chapters have to fight against the Black Rage, but that fight just feels different with the Flesh Tearers. Almost like they are a candle at the end of the wick, ready to be snuffed out any moment. Though that is a lot more unlikely now that primaris have filled the ranks. I hope we get a lot of lore and perspective from these angles in the upcoming books. 

 

Really enjoy the education btw. I really do love the Flesh Tearers.

 

 

I think he speaks his mind because Dante and Seth have quite a history together at this point, and Dante has pretty consistently been shown to legitimately believe in Seth, even when Seth himself doesn't.

 

Seth is quite unusual for flesh tearers in that he is the closest thing to a restrained chapter master they've had in a long time, and its been under his guidance that they've come back from the brink.

[Aothaine]

 

 

I think he speaks his mind because Dante and Seth have quite a history together at this point, and Dante has pretty consistently been shown to legitimately believe in Seth, even when Seth himself doesn't.

 

Seth is quite unusual for flesh tearers in that he is the closest thing to a restrained chapter master they've had in a long time, and its been under his guidance that they've come back from the brink.

 

 

Yeah that does make sense. I remember in DoB when he was leaving one of Baal's moons he watched helpless as some of his own brothers succumbed to the Black Rage. He beat it back himself with effort but he did not seem to be as hampered as his brothers. This could have more to do with the feather being on his person though maybe? Regardless, I'm really looking forward to see what GW does with Seth.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

If we're being honest the comparisons between Dante and Seth mirror those of Azkaellon and Amit during the horus heresy. That's the impression I've recently developed from the two. 

Before Dante, Azkaellon to many of us was considered one of the greatest arch angels.

 

It is interesting that the audio drama Sins of the Father; Virtues of the sons is very reflective of what we've recently learned about Mephiston from the spoilers. But in a very subtle sense.

Where before it was Amit and Azkaellon fighting over Sanguinius, Now the new entities fight over the sons of the angel by comparison.

Though I really feel as though Seth has inherited a part of Amit's soul if not all of it. The reflection of the two is almost a mirror reflective of time.

I still really want to know what happened at the end of Hunger. 

I hope some of that literature wasn't just some throw away lines, but those of substance and that we see those things resurface in the coming books!

 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Indefragable]

...I think Seth is more controlled than Amit. Which is to his credit considering how 10,000 years of geneseed and tactical degeneration would make it that much harder for Seth to keep a lid on things.

 

I see Dante as very much the inheritor of Raldoron. Ral’s greatest strength was that he kept his head at all times, knowing when to let the fury of his blood work to his advantage and when to resist it as well as his ability to always know the hearts and minds of the Space Marines under his command. He was the fulcrum to which the Legion balanced, with Amit’s explosive rage and Azkaellon’s intense protectiveness pushing with side of the see-saw down. I love that Dante has many of those same aspects without being a clone of him .

[Panzer]

 

 

 

I think he speaks his mind because Dante and Seth have quite a history together at this point, and Dante has pretty consistently been shown to legitimately believe in Seth, even when Seth himself doesn't.

 

Seth is quite unusual for flesh tearers in that he is the closest thing to a restrained chapter master they've had in a long time, and its been under his guidance that they've come back from the brink.

 

 

Yeah that does make sense. I remember in DoB when he was leaving one of Baal's moons he watched helpless as some of his own brothers succumbed to the Black Rage. He beat it back himself with effort but he did not seem to be as hampered as his brothers. This could have more to do with the feather being on his person though maybe? Regardless, I'm really looking forward to see what GW does with Seth.

 

 

Red Thirst, not Black Rage. The Black Rage isn't really something to fight back and the Feather helps with the Red Thirst since Sanguinius was known to calm the Thirst in Blood Angels around him.

[Aothaine]

 

 

Red Thirst, not Black Rage. The Black Rage isn't really something to fight back and the Feather helps with the Red Thirst since Sanguinius was known to calm the Thirst in Blood Angels around him.

 

Wait so the Knights of Blood were giving into the Red Thirst in DoB? Ohhh I thought they were falling to the Black Rage. My bad. 

 

Edit: Giving it some more thought this actually makes way more sense. I need to look into the Black Rage more now. This sets upon the angels prior to battle if I remember correctly right? Where the Red Thirst usually comes up during battle.

 

 

Edit: Updated the main post with info obtained from winter's SEO review. LOTS of great news for Flesh Tearers! Potentially two characters that cannot be over watched. Added Fury Within to the main post as well for reference. If anyone has the stats on the chainsword that would be awesome! I'm pretty sure it will be like the other chainswords though 2 attacks, dmg 2 etc.. 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Aothaine

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

 

 

Red Thirst, not Black Rage. The Black Rage isn't really something to fight back and the Feather helps with the Red Thirst since Sanguinius was known to calm the Thirst in Blood Angels around him.

 

Wait so the Knights of Blood were giving into the Red Thirst in DoB? Ohhh I thought they were falling to the Black Rage. My bad.

 

 

Edit: Updated the main post with info obtained from winter's SEO review. LOTS of great news for Flesh Tearers! Potentially two characters that cannot be over watched. Added Fury Within to the main post as well for reference. If anyone has the stats on the chainsword that would be awesome! I'm pretty sure it will be like the other chainswords though 2 attacks, dmg 2 etc.. 

 

 

The Knights of Blood Red Thirst transformation is one of the most controversial idea Guy Haley put in DoB, i did have prefer to stay with the Flesh Tearers aspect, with the KOB being unable to control themselves rather than physically transforming.

 

-----------------------------------

 

Now, regarding the Flesh Tearers in the new supplement, Blood of Baal :

 

First, it is always great to have the Flesh Tearers being given special rules and stuff, BUT, for myself, i feel a big disapointement regarding the quantity given, it feel like GW did the minimum job required to say that they worked on it. (In french we call it the "Minimum Syndical", which is the 10.00 on 20, you do the job but nothing more.)

 

I personally, given GW recent and good Space Marines Supplement, was expecting, 6 Warlord Traits and 6 Relics, and perhaps 2 to 4 more Stratagems, plus a special Flesh Tearers Litany for Chaplains, and even perhaps some psychic powers.

 

Instead we got the Crimson Fist treatment, who in the Imperial Fist supplement got nearly the same amount of work.

 

In the end, i can confort myself at the fact that what the Flesh Tearers got is still pretty powerfull and thematic.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Frater Antodeniel

[Panzer]

 

 

 

 

Red Thirst, not Black Rage. The Black Rage isn't really something to fight back and the Feather helps with the Red Thirst since Sanguinius was known to calm the Thirst in Blood Angels around him.

 

Wait so the Knights of Blood were giving into the Red Thirst in DoB? Ohhh I thought they were falling to the Black Rage. My bad.

 

 

Edit: Updated the main post with info obtained from winter's SEO review. LOTS of great news for Flesh Tearers! Potentially two characters that cannot be over watched. Added Fury Within to the main post as well for reference. If anyone has the stats on the chainsword that would be awesome! I'm pretty sure it will be like the other chainswords though 2 attacks, dmg 2 etc.. 

 

 

The Knights of Blood Red Thirst transformation is one of the most controversial idea Guy Haley put in DoB, i did have prefer to stay with the Flesh Tearers aspect, with the KOB being unable to control themselves rather than physically transforming.

 

 

The Red Thirst transformation is not completely Haleys idea though. He just revived a concept that existed but never got mentioned for years. And since the Black Library writers work a lot more closely together with GW mainstudio these days he most definitely got the okay from GW to reintroduce that concept.

 

Anyway, yes it's the Red Thirst not the Black Rage. Though I think when the Knights of Blood went to sacrifice themselves to let the Flesh Tearers escape they also fell to the Black Rage but I don't quite remember that part anymore. ^^

[Aothaine]

 

Now, regarding the Flesh Tearers in the new supplement, Blood of Baal :

 

First, it is always great to have the Flesh Tearers being given special rules and stuff, BUT, for myself, i feel a big disapointement regarding the quantity given, it feel like GW did the minimum job required to say that they worked on it. (In french we call it the "Minimum Syndical", which is the 10.00 on 20, you do the job but nothing more.)

 

I personally, given GW recent and good Space Marines Supplement, was expecting, 6 Warlord Traits and 6 Relics, and perhaps 2 to 4 more Stratagems, plus a special Flesh Tearers Litany for Chaplains, and even perhaps some psychic powers.

 

Instead we got the Crimson Fist treatment, who in the Imperial Fist supplement got nearly the same amount of work.

 

In the end, i can confort myself at the fact that what the Flesh Tearers got is still pretty powerfull and thematic.

 

See I disagree here. I think everything GW has given Flesh Tearers is outstanding. I am sad to hear they didn't get the +1" to charge. But that is fine. We have other tools that shape out the Flesh Tearers and how they work on the table. The fact that they are getting anything at all is impressive in my opinion. I'm really happy with this release. I'm hoping to be able to secure one of the Limited Edition books if I like the cover art. Otherwise it will just get dropped onto my iPad book list. I LOVE that GW has these eBooks. Just stay away from the enhanced versions. You can't zoom in with them for some stupid reason. The other thing that kind of bugs me is that you cannot put the books in landscape on the iPad. Just doesn't make sense to me. But I love having my entire collection in my iPad for reference material.  Only exception to this is collecter's stuff. Like my Collector's Blood Angels codex. Damn thing is pristine and beautiful. I stroke it sometimes. Yes.. I'm a weirdo. Lol!

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

 

Now, regarding the Flesh Tearers in the new supplement, Blood of Baal :

 

First, it is always great to have the Flesh Tearers being given special rules and stuff, BUT, for myself, i feel a big disapointement regarding the quantity given, it feel like GW did the minimum job required to say that they worked on it. (In french we call it the "Minimum Syndical", which is the 10.00 on 20, you do the job but nothing more.)

 

I personally, given GW recent and good Space Marines Supplement, was expecting, 6 Warlord Traits and 6 Relics, and perhaps 2 to 4 more Stratagems, plus a special Flesh Tearers Litany for Chaplains, and even perhaps some psychic powers.

 

Instead we got the Crimson Fist treatment, who in the Imperial Fist supplement got nearly the same amount of work.

 

In the end, i can confort myself at the fact that what the Flesh Tearers got is still pretty powerfull and thematic.

 

See I disagree here. I think everything GW has given Flesh Tearers is outstanding. I am sad to hear they didn't get the +1" to charge. But that is fine. We have other tools that shape out the Flesh Tearers and how they work on the table. The fact that they are getting anything at all is impressive in my opinion. I'm really happy with this release. I'm hoping to be able to secure one of the Limited Edition books if I like the cover art. Otherwise it will just get dropped onto my iPad book list. I LOVE that GW has these eBooks. Just stay away from the enhanced versions. You can't zoom in with them for some stupid reason. The other thing that kind of bugs me is that you cannot put the books in landscape on the iPad. Just doesn't make sense to me. But I love having my entire collection in my iPad for reference material.  Only exception to this is collecter's stuff. Like my Collector's Blood Angels codex. Damn thing is pristine and beautiful. I stroke it sometimes. Yes.. I'm a weirdo. Lol!

 

 

It is not the quality that i argue about, but the quantity, 6 relics are always better than 2. Personally, i love all the Flesh Tearers things that are in the supplement, and i must add that i do like the Special Issue Wargear as much (especially the Special grenade and the Icon that allow to reroll a charge dice, the quake bolt look good too.)

 

I should add, to make it clear that regarding the quality, GW worked around the Flesh Tearers idea of hitting strong rather than fast, and i like this.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Frater Antodeniel

[Dumah]

Looking at the supplement reviews, the relic Narthecium that Flesh Tearers get seems amazing. Slap that bad boy on a Sanguinary Priest or Primaris Apothecary and escort a full squad of Aggressors or Inceptors. With the heal twice stratagem, you could bring back two Aggressors/Inceptors per turn with full wounds. Seems legit. Add an ancient with Standard or Sacrifice and things really get nutty...

[Panzer]

Yeah it's really strong. However so is the +1 to charge rolls the parent chapter gets. Best would probably to soup but once we go that route it begs the question why not take something from the vanilla Marine codex as well. It's a rabit hole, really. 

[Aothaine]

Yeah it's really strong. However so is the +1 to charge rolls the parent chapter gets. Best would probably to soup but once we go that route it begs the question why not take something from the vanilla Marine codex as well. It's a rabit hole, really. 

 

Yeah I'm thinking this same thing. The combat doctrine of +1 attack on T3 on isn't really stellar. It is really fluffy though. But I'm not entirely sure it is strong enough to want to stay mono chapter. Blood Angels really help Terminators for sure. I can see TH/SS terminators making their way into Blood Angel lists to have them drop in on T3 for mop up duty. Still it is a lot of points to keep in reserve until T3. I really think that the combat doctrine that is specialize to each chapter should be dropped. Just keep the main three doctrines that all space marine share and you'll have more balanced lists and play. 

 

 

 

 

It is not the quality that i argue about, but the quantity, 6 relics are always better than 2. Personally, i love all the Flesh Tearers things that are in the supplement, and i must add that i do like the Special Issue Wargear as much (especially the Special grenade and the Icon that allow to reroll a charge dice, the quake bolt look good too.)

 

I should add, to make it clear that regarding the quality, GW worked around the Flesh Tearers idea of hitting strong rather than fast, and i like this.

 

Fair enough. I honestly think the two relics are more than enough. We have ways to get access to the Blood Angel relics now. We don't really need a huge list of our own relics we'll just ignore because we want the Angels Wings. 

 

The Flesh Tearers hitting strong rather than fast is a solid point. But they still want to get in melee most times and that +1" to charges that we lack is going to be felt sometimes. Funny thing, right now Flesh Tearers -1 ap on nat 6 in the fight phase does not stack with the -1ap from the assault doctrine. In a sense I guess you could say the Flesh Tearers have the assault doctrine from turn one if you roll a nat 6. 

[Blindhamster]

 

 

Yeah it's really strong. However so is the +1 to charge rolls the parent chapter gets. Best would probably to soup but once we go that route it begs the question why not take something from the vanilla Marine codex as well. It's a rabit hole, really.

Yeah I'm thinking this same thing. The combat doctrine of +1 attack on T3 on isn't really stellar. It is really fluffy though. But I'm not entirely sure it is strong enough to want to stay mono chapter. Blood Angels really help Terminators for sure. I can see TH/SS terminators making their way into Blood Angel lists to have them drop in on T3 for mop up duty. Still it is a lot of points to keep in reserve until T3. I really think that the combat doctrine that is specialize to each chapter should be dropped. Just keep the main three doctrines that all space marine share and you'll have more balanced lists and play.

 

 

 

 

It is not the quality that i argue about, but the quantity, 6 relics are always better than 2. Personally, i love all the Flesh Tearers things that are in the supplement, and i must add that i do like the Special Issue Wargear as much (especially the Special grenade and the Icon that allow to reroll a charge dice, the quake bolt look good too.)

 

I should add, to make it clear that regarding the quality, GW worked around the Flesh Tearers idea of hitting strong rather than fast, and i like this.

Fair enough. I honestly think the two relics are more than enough. We have ways to get access to the Blood Angel relics now. We don't really need a huge list of our own relics we'll just ignore because we want the Angels Wings.

 

The Flesh Tearers hitting strong rather than fast is a solid point. But they still want to get in melee most times and that +1" to charges that we lack is going to be felt sometimes. Funny thing, right now Flesh Tearers -1 ap on nat 6 in the fight phase does not stack with the -1ap from the assault doctrine. In a sense I guess you could say the Flesh Tearers have the assault doctrine from turn one if you roll a nat 6.

Why wouldnt it stack?

[Panzer]

I really think that the combat doctrine that is specialize to each chapter should be dropped. Just keep the main three doctrines that all space marine share and you'll have more balanced lists and play. 

I disagree. Why should they do that? I like getting another boost turn 3+. No need to hold your reserves back this long if you think it's not worth it but you should still have other units around once you enter turn 3 who can benefit from it. The Assault Doctrine turns basically every of our units into a melee unit be it Intercessors, Tacticals or even Devastators.

[Aothaine]

 

Why wouldnt it stack?

 

The assault doctrine states that it doesn't stack unless the rules specifically states it stacks. It was most likely intended to stack and will be FAQed. But right now it does not say it stacks with the Assault Doctrine. So it doesn't stack. :/ According to The Chef from Tabletop Tactics anyway.

 

 

 

I disagree. Why should they do that? I like getting another boost turn 3+. No need to hold your reserves back this long if you think it's not worth it but you should still have other units around once you enter turn 3 who can benefit from it. The Assault Doctrine turns basically every of our units into a melee unit be it Intercessors, Tacticals or even Devastators.

 

I suppose it adds additional flare to the armies they apply to. And it does kind of push people into wanting to at least try to run mono-armies. For some it is really good and others it is kind of lack-luster. I understand the benefits of having +1A from Turn 3 onwards but every batrep I've seen, especially in competitive games, by T3 there is not much left on the board. You're getting washed out by T2 or you're both completely devastated. I just don't think having that +1 attack is going to amount to much. Especially with an army that wants to be in the opponents lines T2 at the latest. Just a personal opinion though. I think it is super fluffy as the Red Thirst starts to affect the army as the battle goes on. Meh I dunno. I was just throwing a thought out to the wind really.

[Panzer]

 

 

Why wouldnt it stack?

 

The assault doctrine states that it doesn't stack unless the rules specifically states it stacks. It was most likely intended to stack and will be FAQed. But right now it does not say it stacks with the Assault Doctrine. So it doesn't stack. :/ According to The Chef from Tabletop Tactics anyway.

 

 

 

I disagree. Why should they do that? I like getting another boost turn 3+. No need to hold your reserves back this long if you think it's not worth it but you should still have other units around once you enter turn 3 who can benefit from it. The Assault Doctrine turns basically every of our units into a melee unit be it Intercessors, Tacticals or even Devastators.

 

I suppose it adds additional flare to the armies they apply to. And it does kind of push people into wanting to at least try to run mono-armies. For some it is really good and others it is kind of lack-luster. I understand the benefits of having +1A from Turn 3 onwards but every batrep I've seen, especially in competitive games, by T3 there is not much left on the board. You're getting washed out by T2 or you're both completely devastated. I just don't think having that +1 attack is going to amount to much. Especially with an army that wants to be in the opponents lines T2 at the latest. Just a personal opinion though. I think it is super fluffy as the Red Thirst starts to affect the army as the battle goes on. Meh I dunno. I was just throwing a thought out to the wind really.

 

 

But removing the bonus doesn't help with being defeated turn 3? That's pretty flawed logic.

 

Also competetive games have the problem of sticking to ITC which is kind of weird anyway. When using CA18 missions and proper terrain games shouldn't be over by turn 3 anymore. I know none of my games are unless it's a REALLY onesided match.

[Aothaine]

 

 

But removing the bonus doesn't help with being defeated turn 3? That's pretty flawed logic.

 

Also competetive games have the problem of sticking to ITC which is kind of weird anyway. When using CA18 missions and proper terrain games shouldn't be over by turn 3 anymore. I know none of my games are unless it's a REALLY onesided match.

 

This is a really fair point. I shouldn't have made that statement. I apologize. Viewing the rules only from a competitive point of view is something I need to try and pull back from. It is hard though as I am a very competitive player, but I have my limits. I'm not a WAAC player. I want to enjoy the game, I just want to win while having fun lol. But even watching some of those games from Tabletop Tactics that are not hyper competitive you see what is left on the table by turn 3 and it is usually like 1-2 characters and maybe a few other units that are nearly gone.

 

Here is a good example: https://youtu.be/AsPzgyA5NVA

 

T3 for the Blood Angels seems to have 1 Razor Back, Two 5-man tactical squads, a few scouts and their characters left. Now, this is just once example. But what I'm trying to point out here is that by T3 that +1A return on investment is really lack-luster. When Compared to some of the stuff other chapters get. I think that was what was leading me to suggest removing the empowered combat doctrines. But it is all good. Back on topic yes?

Edited November 30, 2019 by Aothaine

[Indefragable]

...the AP bonuses should absolutely stack. I mean, that’s why there’s all this sky-is -falling talk about IH and WS and stuff...precisely b/c of how things stack. 

[Aothaine]

...the AP bonuses should absolutely stack. I mean, that’s why there’s all this sky-is -falling talk about IH and WS and stuff...precisely b/c of how things stack. 

 

I agree. It should. But RAW vs. RAI. RAW they don't stack. RAI they most likely should stack. Just need to wait for clarification.

 

Not really sure what stacking you're talking about in regards to doctrines for the IH or the WS though :/ Maybe I'm forgetting something. I know with IH none of their rules interact directly with the Dev doctrine giving an extra -1 ap.