Clarification on New 'Dex/Combat Doctrines/Imp Soup

[Godspear]

So, in the discussion about the PA2 book rumors currently underway, I noticed something I'd like to discuss a little more deeply.  New codex rules are pretty clear when it comes to combat doctrines and Imp Soup lists, right?  But can the same be said for marine soup lists?  I'll use the example I provided in the thread for clarification.

 

You have a list containing the new BT as previewed in PA2 in a good ol' fashioned LRC armored battalion formation.  You want these guys to benefit from the Knights of Sigismund doctrine, so they can have a totally sweet mob charge out of LRC and rhinos or whatever.  They're BT.

 

For fire support, you've included BT Hellblasters in Impulsors or Devestators or whatever, using the IF supplement in a spearhead detachment.

 

The idea is to be able to use the IF doctrine while the devastator doctrine is active and the BT doctrine while the assault doctrine is active.  The consensus seems to be that this is not possible, due to the new combat doctrine rules, HOWEVER, could marines still not function with other marines, due to the fact that they all have the Angels of Death keyword which is the new umbrella rule that includes Combat Doctrine?

 

This would mean that, as opposed to forsaking your doctrines, individual detachments of marines could still utilize the doctrines associated with their chapters, because every marine in the army still has the Angels of Death rule.  As it stands differentiating between specific "super doctrines" to limit play does not align with RAW because all doctrines fall under the Angels of Death rule.  At least, that's my interpretation.

 

I put it to you, brothers.

[tvih]

"First up is Knights of Sigismund, which is available to armies comprised entirely of Black Templars." If you have a detachment that isn't BT, you lose it. Same thing for the IF doctrine bonus; if you have BT, you can't have that. From a rules point of view that really is basically the end of discussion.

[Godspear]

"First up is Knights of Sigismund, which is available to armies comprised entirely of Black Templars." If you have a detachment that isn't BT, you lose it. Same thing for the IF doctrine bonus; if you have BT, you can't have that. From a rules point of view that really is basically the end of discussion.

 

Ah, I was looking at the wrong book.  Thanks for the clarification.

[Acebaur]

"First up is Knights of Sigismund, which is available to armies comprised entirely of Black Templars." If you have a detachment that isn't BT, you lose it. Same thing for the IF doctrine bonus; if you have BT, you can't have that. From a rules point of view that really is basically the end of discussion.

 

That's not what Legacy of Dorn states. If every unit in your army is from the Imperial Fists or an Imperial Fists Sucessor chapter then you get to use Legacy of Dorn. Black Templars are a IF successor.  Unless GW specifically says that you can't use both in PA2 or an Errata, then you get both. If you are entirely Black Templars then you are also entirely an IF successor. 

[DranuTemplar]

Interesting...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Agreed.

[Marshal Vespasian]

Huh. Thats actually pretty nice. Lets see what PA2 makes of that

[SirJyo]

It will either be an IF supplement errata this weekend or in PA2.

 

Doubt they would make us that competitive, but I can dream.

[MajorNese]

That's not what Legacy of Dorn states. If every unit in your army is from the Imperial Fists or an Imperial Fists Sucessor chapter then you get to use Legacy of Dorn. Black Templars are a IF successor.  Unless GW specifically says that you can't use both in PA2 or an Errata, then you get both. If you are entirely Black Templars then you are also entirely an IF successor.

...and that's not exactly what Legacy of Dorn states.

 

units in your army [...] gain the Legacy of Dorn ability so long as [...]

every unit from your army is an IMPERIAL FISTS unit

or

every unit from your army is from the same Imperial Fists successor Chapter (see below).

While it may be up to debate/future clarifications if BT can go the successor route or not, mixing and matching CTs doesn't work for Legacy of Dorn.

Note that it does not say "every unit from your army is an IMPERIAL FISTS or from an Imperial Fists successor chapter", which would allow combining IF and a successor. Either your entire army is IF, or your entire army is from the same successor chapter.

 

There's a reason why no one (especially the tournament scene) tries to mix and match detachments from different successor chapters, as effective as it would be from a CT point of view. While Doctrines still apply (everything has Angels of Death), you lose the super doctrines once there are 2 different chapters in your army.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

What difference does the word 'same' make if everyone in your army is still a Black Templar?

 

If the bar to using the IF supplement rules comes, it will be in PA2, because as far as I can see there is nothing in the IF Supp to prevent BT using their rules as things stand.

[DranuTemplar]

Either your entire army is IF, or your entire army is from the same successor chapter.

 

 

Not sure I follow. The entire army, if BT, it would be the same successor chapter (namely BT). Hence both the IF and BT super doctrine would seem to apply.

 

I doubt GW will allow this for long but BT might have just become the strongest chapter for a time.

[Godspear]

It's not a mix of CTs if you get both anyway. BT are an IF successor. We've answered my initial question with a resounding, "No, that's not how that works," which is great, but we've also added the addendum, "it works this way instead." I can absolutely understand now why you wouldn't want to mix CTs or try and cherry pick super doctrines. It doesn't jive with the rules. Great, but if PA2 releases without an errata, or a statement by GW in the book stating otherwise, then it's reasonable to conclude that because BT are an IF successor and you are fielding all BT in the same army, they would benefit from both Legacy of Dorn and Knights of Sigismund. Right?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

At this stage, without anything being seen from PA2 to say the contrary. Yes.

 

I expect that it's more likely that any rule in PA2 will make you have to elect one or the other.

[Godspear]

At this stage, without anything being seen from PA2 to say the contrary. Yes.

 

I expect that it's more likely that any rule in PA2 will make you have to elect one or the other.

 

Yeah, I'll take what I can get.  I've been waiting for a new BT codex for over a decade.  These rules are fantastic.  I just thought it was an interesting point of debate.

[tvih]

 

 

That's not what Legacy of Dorn states. If every unit in your army is from the Imperial Fists or an Imperial Fists Sucessor chapter then you get to use Legacy of Dorn. Black Templars are a IF successor.  Unless GW specifically says that you can't use both in PA2 or an Errata, then you get both. If you are entirely Black Templars then you are also entirely an IF successor. 

 

I simply meant - for the IF part - that it still has to be the same chapter.

 

What difference does the word 'same' make if everyone in your army is still a Black Templar?

 

If the bar to using the IF supplement rules comes, it will be in PA2, because as far as I can see there is nothing in the IF Supp to prevent BT using their rules as things stand.

Because BT (IF supplement) and BT (PA2 supplement) aren't the same thing. In fact it's quite clear why BT is not really even mentioned in the IF supplement (at least that's what I heard) - it's so that we don't use the stuff from it. Don't kid yourselves by thinking we'll have access to both at the same time, we aren't "IF+". Even if they somehow forgot to add this limitation in the initial print, it'll be FAQed in a hurry. We all know this - why are we really even debating the point? Nothing but disappointment down that road.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

No one is saying that.

[Acebaur]

Ok there seems to be some confusion going on here. I'll try to clear it up. 

 

Chapter Tactics or CT are only available to those particular chapters unless you take the Inheritors of the Primarch successor trait. Black Templars can only take the BT one. 

 

Doctrines - All SM chapters get the basic doctrines and one buffed or Super Doctrine depending on what chapter you are or which successor you are. 

 

Legacy of Dorn is the IF Super Doctrine and you qualify for it if your army is Battle Forged and are either A) entirely Imperial Fists or B ) entirely made up of units from the same successor chapter. Same goes for IF Warlord Traits, Strategems, Special Issue Wargear and even Relics if you spend the CP on the strat that lets you take one. 

 

So an entire army of Black Templars is:

An army made up entirely of a singe IF successor chapter

An army made up entirely of Black Templars

This fulfills the requirements for both Legacy of Dorn and Knights of Sigismund

That means that unless there is wording preventing it in PA or an forthcoming errata, BT have access to both Super Doctrines.   

[Medjugorje]

RAW it will be so as Long as GW faq´ed this. But it could be a rule in this Supplement which deny us to use IF Supplement.

[Acebaur]

RAW it will be so as Long as GW faq´ed this. But it could be a rule in this Supplement which deny us to use IF Supplement.

 

Yeah, and I'm sure there will be, or one that makes us choose one or the other which would be fine with me as well. I just hope that we still have access to the Special Issue Wargear at a minimum. 

[Medjugorje]

The absense of Special Issue Wargear is the only sign that this is the way GW want us to buy both books to Play ( and i would like that)

[Sete]

Then when everyone is playing IF theres no reason to update BT, the cynical in me thinks...

 

I want restrictions in place. You play BT or you play IF. No lollygaging.

[Medjugorje]

(I dont believe it BUT) It could be - the rules say so for now. We are a successor and we are BT. So both conditions are fulfilled. RAW its okay. And to be honest - we dont have Special issue wargear and no good Superdoctrine. Each unit which prefer the one doctrine dont get improved that much by the other one - and our CT dont synergize with the IF Doctrine so we would not be OP in this case.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

I would assume that by a successor chapter they mean one that has been created according to the rules in Codex: Space Marines. There is no rule that states BT are an IF successor (yet?), it's all fluff. Until we've seen PA2 we won't know for sure, but I'd guess if they don't clear it up immediately with the book (which would actually surprise me) they would soon(ish) afterwards release an FAQ. I can't imagine it is intended for us to benefit from basically two chapter rules. Noone else can, afaik.

[Medjugorje]

But Crimson Fists use the rule from IF too ;P

[Sword Brother Adelard]

We play within the IF Supplement in exactly the same way as the CF do. (Except for the CF exclusive rules)