5+ Flesh is Weak

[Cruor Vault]

 

 

We've already been through this problem with Guilliman.

 

Jacking the points on a single character doesn't scale to how much impact their buffs provide as games change in size.  Either their buff become useless in a small game, or overpowering in a large one.

 

Initially GW tried to bump specific unit's costs, but that made those units unplayable for Chapters that didn't have access to Guilliman (IE: Fire Raptors).  Next GW tried jacking Guilliman's points, and to a lesser extent that worked, except it made it impossible to bring him in anything less than a 2K game.

 

As to your side note: I 100% believe that it will be changed in the same fashion as the Iron Stone was.

 

Isn't that good though? Why would Guilliman, a primarch, be involved in a scout patrol? It just doesn't make sense. He should only be usable in larger engagements. The same with Feirros. In order to even have him and make it some-what effective you needed to build an Iron Council around him which ends up making the list quite expensive if you are trying to build a competitive list. I agree with not letting his aura affect flyers. That is perfectly reasonable. But nerfing the Iron Stone was not needed. Hell the Eldar have that same effect on every single one of their Wave Serpents. I don't remember anyone freaking out about that. It was good but it wasn't game breaking. It trapped all those units together making them easy to assault and tie down. It also created a sort of death ball that could be some-what avoided using terrain and faster units/vehicles. 

 

So I just don't agree with most the arguments stating that it needed to be nerfed. "Easy to play" & "Point and click" is not a reason to nerf things. Everyone enjoys different play-styles. I remember people being salty for years about the old T'au lists with triple riptides. But people played around them. The meta shifted and changed. It just doesn't make any sense from a competitive stand point to have this knee jerk reaction. Give the meta time to adjust. It will adjust and things you think are op might not be as bad as you thought. It was certainly strong and there are certain aspects of Iron Hands that are still really good. But I guess I'm just more against the instant outrage and rioting over it so fast and GW's reaction to it. Most of us still don't know what is in store for Xenos and Chaos or what crazy combos are going to come out of that. Also, Genestealer lists were still beating the IHs lists from what I recall. But I don't see any outrage against the Genestealer codex. 

 

I think the main issue is that people were able to paint the black over all their minis so fast that you saw a flood of IHs players. Making the problem seem larger that it actually was. I really like defending my point so I appreciate the arguments. I hope that I am sounding calm, because I am. Also if I come across as insulting I do not mean it. Just having a discussion with people that enjoy the same game I enjoy.

 

 

The IronStone's aura on a trio of Executioners has significantly more impact on game balance than a Serpent Shield on a Wave Serpent.  The damage output of a Wave Serpent is nothing compared to an Executioner.  

 

How do you balance an Executioner that is buffed with both the IronStone and Fierros' Aura?  Do you increase its points cost?  Does that work for the other Space Marine factions that lack the ability to grant their Executioners Invulnerable Saves and Damage reduction? 

 

How about increasing Fierro's cost?  Double it?  Triple it?  How does that impact his value in a 1000pt game?  A 2000pt game?

 

Massive Aura sub-faction specific buffs like these don't balance at all well.

[WarriorFish]

This is about the Chief Apothecary, please stay on topic.

[Aothaine]

 

Massive Aura sub-faction specific buffs like these don't balance at all well.

Throwing my rebuttal into spoilers to be safe :D

Fair enough. Then, if this is how you feel, should apothecaries for IHs now be getting nerfed? 5+++ on top of Feirros' 5++ save? How far are you willing to take this? It is one of those slippery slopes. You can use this argument over and over attacking the next big thing and the next big thing. I just think that jumping on rules changes so quickly is a poor way to handle things. Not that it did not need to be nerfed. But give the meta time to shift, look and the future rules that are coming out, then make changes in the big FAQs. These mini updates after codex release should only be used for clarification of rules and corrections of major issues. This wasn't major for me.

 

 

This is about the Chief Apothecary, please stay on topic.

 

My apologies. Back on topic.

 

So as far as the Chief Apothecary goes. He is going help a more foot-slogging based army. I would love to see him with three devastator squads with lascannons and three Eliminators with las fusils. This is a crazy strong fire base with Iron Hands and synergizes extremely well with the Chief Apothecary. 

 

So you'll have 12 lascannon shots (15 on one turn with the cherub), 6-9 las fusil shots on a mobile platform that rerolls 1s to hit, can move and fire their weapons with no penalty, has an additional -1 ap modifier from the heavy doctrine and is active on turn 1. Ohh and the improved over watch. 

 

Keeping the units clustered makes assaulting them a nightmare. Because the opponent will have to declare multiple charges and face all that improved over watch or have like 3-6 models max in assault range. 

 

Good things are coming. :D

[Cruor Vault]

 

 

Massive Aura sub-faction specific buffs like these don't balance at all well.

Throwing my rebuttal into spoilers to be safe

Fair enough. Then, if this is how you feel, should apothecaries for IHs now be getting nerfed? 5+++ on top of Feirros' 5++ save? How far are you willing to take this? It is one of those slippery slopes. You can use this argument over and over attacking the next big thing and the next big thing. I just think that jumping on rules changes so quickly is a poor way to handle things. Not that it did not need to be nerfed. But give the meta time to shift, look and the future rules that are coming out, then make changes in the big FAQs. These mini updates after codex release should only be used for clarification of rules and corrections of major issues. This wasn't major for me.

 

 

This is about the Chief Apothecary, please stay on topic.

 

My apologies. Back on topic.

 

So as far as the Chief Apothecary goes. He is going help a more foot-slogging based army. I would love to see him with three devastator squads with lascannons and three Eliminators with las fusils. This is a crazy strong fire base with Iron Hands and synergizes extremely well with the Chief Apothecary. 

 

So you'll have 12 lascannon shots (15 on one turn with the cherub), 6-9 las fusil shots on a mobile platform that rerolls 1s to hit, can move and fire their weapons with no penalty, has an additional -1 ap modifier from the heavy doctrine and is active on turn 1. Ohh and the improved over watch. 

 

Keeping the units clustered makes assaulting them a nightmare. Because the opponent will have to declare multiple charges and face all that improved over watch or have like 3-6 models max in assault range. 

 

Good things are coming.

 

 

This is exactly the type of combo that breaks game balance as an aura.

 

This Iron Hands Chief Apothecary is enhancing all those Devastators and Eliminators to be ~33% more resilient.  Stacked on with the inherent Iron Hands re-rolls and abilities you've got roughly 900pts of the army gaining ~33% extra wounds and hitting with ~11% improved accuracy for 1CP and ZERO points cost?

 

How does one balance that at all?  If you increase the cost of the Apothecary or the Devastators they're not worth taking for any other sub-faction.

 

If you change bonus FnP to a single unit it doesn't scale perfectly, but skewing a single 300pt unit is a LOT better than skewing 1000 or more points of models.

[Aothaine]

 

 

This is exactly the type of combo that breaks game balance as an aura.

 

This Iron Hands Chief Apothecary is enhancing all those Devastators and Eliminators to be ~33% more resilient.  Stacked on with the inherent Iron Hands re-rolls and abilities you've got roughly 900pts of the army gaining ~33% extra wounds and hitting with ~11% improved accuracy for 1CP and ZERO points cost?

 

How does one balance that at all?  If you increase the cost of the Apothecary or the Devastators they're not worth taking for any other sub-faction.

 

If you change bonus FnP to a single unit it doesn't scale perfectly, but skewing a single 300pt unit is a LOT better than skewing 1000 or more points of models.

 

I understand where you are coming from. The death ball that I listed above is exactly that. It is scary. What I was trying to point out though is that there are scary comps like this with every faction. So reaction nerfing one thing will just lead people onto the next thing. I can build something similar with Ultramarines, Salamanders,White Scars, etc. You can do this with Eldar and T'au, Orks and Necrons. It is part of the game to have scary synergies. The problem when you do stuff like this, especially with auras, is you lock those units into a position that is bad when you are playing the game with objectives and other ways to score points than just killing your opponent. 

 

Maybe this is another area where a disconnect happens. People freak out about things like this but fail to realize how it plays out in a game where capturing objectives and playing the maelstrom matters more than just killing your opponent. I've seen it multiple times on batreps. The army playing the objectives and maelstrom wins 90% of the time.

 

 

Something else that we can use the Chief Apothecary for is to setup medical stations. So you use the first born marines, throw the apothecary in a Rhino with some bloaks rush the rhino up, pop smoke, turn 2 deploy to setup the forward medical station that your firing base can then deploy from. Alternatively you can use him to run Aggressors up the field with Fierros. Ohhh!!!!

 

Fierros, Chief Apothecary, Bolter Aggressor Squad (6-man squad), Executioner/Repulsor/Levi Dread, or Dev Centurions (6-man) Grav/Hurricane. Good lord that is scary! I love it! Oh you didn't wipe out my Centurions? Let me heal them twice! Twice!!! Muahhahaah! 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Aothaine

[zero88]

Since the Apothecary upgrade is an "Aura", can you give him the Primaris relic for +3" to Aura ranges? An 18" Diameter of 5++ is kind of crazy

[Aothaine]

Since the Apothecary upgrade is an "Aura", can you give him the Primaris relic for +3" to Aura ranges? An 18" Diameter of 5++ is kind of crazy

 

I didn't write the rules. I just abuse them. :D

 

Seriously though. I'm pretty sure you can do this. I'm also pretty sure you'll only be wanting to do this type of stuff at really competitive tournaments. You take this to your LFGS and look for pick up games and you will not have many friends.

[chapter master 454]

Been thinking about this whole thing in use with the big fat boys we all love/hate to hate/love: Centurions, Devastator style.

 

Put Grav-Cannons and Hurricanes on them and 3 full squads of 6 will cost 1260 points and each squad literally is a walking 24" bubble of death. While range can be an issue, if the opponent is spending the game hiding in a corner (and not on objectives) then win there I suppose.

 

T5, 2+ save, 4 Wounds and add disgustingly resilient to them now you have some of the bulkiest firepower boys that even burst cannons can struggle against. Not hard to toe-tap with the 6" aura from "Father of the Future" for all 18 to basically begin walking towards the centre of the board and take claim of it. Even if charged (lol, charging Iron Hand Centurions...haha...oh your serious? Didn't know you wanted to pack that unit away already!) these bad boys throw out some pretty good melee and are still durable in melee too (still...2+ save, T5, 4 wounds, 5+++).

 

The main concern I had with this concept is sniping the apothecary out from under them even with "cogitated martyrdom" (remember that is a thing!) however thoughts go towards using the Gorgon's Chain (even on the primaris apothecary, 4++ too valuable). Put that with a chapter master, the set-up is barely 4CP for some fairly scary firepower (I say 4 for those successors, true iron hand can save the CP there).

 

Further support elements can comprise of lieutenant and Librarian for the wound re-rolls and the Librarian for Psychic Defence along with Psysteel Armour (I didn't notice is works on any iron hand unit!) to further boost a unit. I did consider a Chaplain but I considered it too many moving parts really and you have a Chapter Master already, no need for Litany of Shoot betterer. Main reason is I would be concern about things like the plaguebearer spam or powers like doom/guide being a big issue where I would consider a neural shroud librarian (again, more CP but more on that later).

 

The list really wouldn't even run that much CP actively. It only really wants to use Trans-human physiology once really, the other two stratagems you want to hold up would be Martyrdom and Grav-Amp and that's it really.

Give them some Intercessor support to help cover other areas and boom, you have a really nasty grinder list.

 

Each Centurion unit is 24 wounds, T5, 2+ save with 5+++ which against most things makes them near enough equal to the plaguebearers in hard to killness (with support from the apothecary meaning wounds can be hard to keep stick) and if you opt for the "stay out of reach" method then quickly their moving into the centre of the board will rapidly reduce options with the weapons they carry being effective against anything really. Charging them is just straight up suicide without Overwatch negation and even if you get into melee they aren't exactly easy targets (Strength 5, T5 (again), 3 attacks base. They aren't easy to shift even in melee) and you would need to be able to lock up all of them to really make it annoying (again, good luck. On the first round of melee with shock assault, 6 centurions throw at full strength 25 attacks).

 

Deathball returns?

[Aothaine]

 

Deathball returns?

 

I think the main issue is that Iron Hands are just better Plague Marines right now. There are a few variations of this deathball list.  I think some armies are going to eat this list alive and others will struggle with it. In the end it is a dice game. You can roll bad and still lose. But Iron Hands are no joke right now. Even after the nerf of the Chapter Master they are still solidly in the top armies list. 

 

You drop this list down on the table and you opponent is just going to pack up though. Have to remember that this is a game and as much as you want to win it is more important that both parties are enjoying themselves. From what I've read, snipers are starting to come back. Characters and the auras they provide are really dangerous, this applies to every army. It only makes sense that the meta would shift toward character assassination. 

 

The 5+++ will help a lot! So will the 5++ granted by Feirros. Another thing I want to point out is that your talking about someone dropping ~$500 into Dev Centurions. I can't imagine a lot of people would do this. I mean.. it is something I would consider. But I really love the Centurion models. But for most people it is very unrealistic. 

 

Interesting idea though. I say keep the Chaplain though. Give him the crozius relic and turn him into a bash chaplain. He is scary in melee.

[chapter master 454]

 

 

Deathball returns?

 

I think the main issue is that Iron Hands are just better Plague Marines right now. There are a few variations of this deathball list.  I think some armies are going to eat this list alive and others will struggle with it. In the end it is a dice game. You can roll bad and still lose. But Iron Hands are no joke right now. Even after the nerf of the Chapter Master they are still solidly in the top armies list. 

 

You drop this list down on the table and you opponent is just going to pack up though. Have to remember that this is a game and as much as you want to win it is more important that both parties are enjoying themselves. From what I've read, snipers are starting to come back. Characters and the auras they provide are really dangerous, this applies to every army. It only makes sense that the meta would shift toward character assassination. 

 

The 5+++ will help a lot! So will the 5++ granted by Feirros. Another thing I want to point out is that your talking about someone dropping ~$500 into Dev Centurions. I can't imagine a lot of people would do this. I mean.. it is something I would consider. But I really love the Centurion models. But for most people it is very unrealistic. 

 

Interesting idea though. I say keep the Chaplain though. Give him the crozius relic and turn him into a bash chaplain. He is scary in melee.

 

 

Yes, people play for various reasons but thats why you read the room with your opponent. If you are trying a tournament list, you let them know and see if that is alright...only reason you don't is because its a "that guy" or just someone who isn't really nice in general.

 

However I would comment that Feirros isn't actually good for the list. The 5++ is completely useless imo unless you get mobbed by AP4 somehow (guess they paired you with the guy who brought 18 assault centurions with meltaguns in raven guard!), they have a 2+ save by default so AP3 puts them to 5+ anyway (I call this the "Terminator 22 paradox"). Not to mention in relation to Chaplain Club, this list isn't designed around melee. While focus is nice, it isn't going to make or break the army. If you were to argue Chaplain I would actually argue for bringing him ether for Iron Hands litany just to aid the squads all round for fighting (S6 being a break point against T3).

 

Also...I have 15 centurions...(3 hard modelled as Devastators with Grav, 3 Hard modelled as assault with flamer, 9 still in progress of getting magnets...what a pain)...I like centurions...to be honest I really like them because they feel like how tanks should: hit like a truck and take a licking keep on ticking!

[Aothaine]

 

 

Yes, people play for various reasons but thats why you read the room with your opponent. If you are trying a tournament list, you let them know and see if that is alright...only reason you don't is because its a "that guy" or just someone who isn't really nice in general.

 

However I would comment that Feirros isn't actually good for the list. The 5++ is completely useless imo unless you get mobbed by AP4 somehow (guess they paired you with the guy who brought 18 assault centurions with meltaguns in raven guard!), they have a 2+ save by default so AP3 puts them to 5+ anyway (I call this the "Terminator 22 paradox"). Not to mention in relation to Chaplain Club, this list isn't designed around melee. While focus is nice, it isn't going to make or break the army. If you were to argue Chaplain I would actually argue for bringing him ether for Iron Hands litany just to aid the squads all round for fighting (S6 being a break point against T3).

 

Also...I have 15 centurions...(3 hard modelled as Devastators with Grav, 3 Hard modelled as assault with flamer, 9 still in progress of getting magnets...what a pain)...I like centurions...to be honest I really like them because they feel like how tanks should: hit like a truck and take a licking keep on ticking!

 

 

Ahh solid point about about the 5++ with Feirros. The Bash Chaplain serves more than one purpose though. You get the litany, reroll everything in meele, and a character that is going to really wreck other power balls with his heroic intervention. It will prevent those knights from tying down a important part of your army. Because a Knight will totally assault a unit of 6 Dev Cents. They will also most likely survive. If it is a Chaos Knight they can assault with no over-watch if I am remembering correctly. So having that hammer just sitting in the mess of things buffing and waiting for the opponent to think they are safe in melee is never a bad idea imho.

 

Also, I'm impressed with your Cent count! I approve! Love the Centurion models and I'm so happy they are getting game time again.

[chapter master 454]

Well to wrap up the discussion on the centurions then steer back to the 5+++ I suppose.

Not seeing what would allow chaos knights to ignore overwatch...must be missing the key piece of rule there (I have nearly all codexes on my tablet) but even a knight would still look at charging a full strength centurion squad with some concern because you can go optimal repulse with grav-amp...you REALLY want to charge 24 grav shots with re-roll to hit (on 4+) and re-roll to wound? Would math it but I am sure the knight would make it but not so complete as you might think!

Also good point on the bash chaplain though I would contest it may be an idea to instead equip the captain for anti-big stuff. Remember, this list at best will have 9 CP really (battalion + Spearhead) and the base level combo for successors is 4 CP (2 for chapter master, 1 for chief apothecary, 1 for "gift from papa chapter") leaving it with 5 CP. Very CP hungry. So you can take ether the chaplain or a librarian for the third HQ, suppose that comes down to your preference.

 

 In regards to the 5+++, it is kinda nuts how much a difference going from 6 to 5 is. I would wager no-one would ever bat an eye for a 6+ FNP (in fact, I would save father of the future is terrible in that regard) but when it is a 5+ FNP suddenly the effectiveness is just amazing. Then again, going from 1/6 wounds ignored to 1/3 wounds ignored is a big jump really.

 If it is normal chapters I would think the other trait would be better overall, ESPECIALLY if you want to run suicide plasma veterans (be able to pick up 2 dudes a turn). Might actually make a thread about that in general marine talk.

[Aothaine]

Well to wrap up the discussion on the centurions then steer back to the 5+++ I suppose.

Not seeing what would allow chaos knights to ignore overwatch...must be missing the key piece of rule there (I have nearly all codexes on my tablet) but even a knight would still look at charging a full strength centurion squad with some concern because you can go optimal repulse with grav-amp...you REALLY want to charge 24 grav shots with re-roll to hit (on 4+) and re-roll to wound? Would math it but I am sure the knight would make it but not so complete as you might think!

Also good point on the bash chaplain though I would contest it may be an idea to instead equip the captain for anti-big stuff. Remember, this list at best will have 9 CP really (battalion + Spearhead) and the base level combo for successors is 4 CP (2 for chapter master, 1 for chief apothecary, 1 for "gift from papa chapter") leaving it with 5 CP. Very CP hungry. So you can take ether the chaplain or a librarian for the third HQ, suppose that comes down to your preference.

 

 In regards to the 5+++, it is kinda nuts how much a difference going from 6 to 5 is. I would wager no-one would ever bat an eye for a 6+ FNP (in fact, I would save father of the future is terrible in that regard) but when it is a 5+ FNP suddenly the effectiveness is just amazing. Then again, going from 1/6 wounds ignored to 1/3 wounds ignored is a big jump really.

 If it is normal chapters I would think the other trait would be better overall, ESPECIALLY if you want to run suicide plasma veterans (be able to pick up 2 dudes a turn). Might actually make a thread about that in general marine talk.

 

Ahhh I might not be remembering it correctly. I though Knights and Chaos Knights had the ability to charge and ignore over watch. I know for a fact that Blood Angels can do this with their relic jump pack and Flesh Tearers can do this with two assaults. The JP relic and their warlord trait. I was mainly trying to get across that the list will have it's weaknesses as it should. It should be pretty strong though. I would also try and squeeze in at least two more apothecaries so you can attempt to raise once on every unit. 

 

The 5+++ is indeed amazing. It really does make a difference. I'm sure Death Guard players are going to be quite miffed about this for awhile. I hope they get something decent in return. +1W on all Death Guard data sheets would go a LONG way to helping them out imho.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Aothaine

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It shouldn’t be that hard for certain armies to tag the Cents and shut them down. That’s why you need a hard melee counter to clear out.

[casb1965]

I used the Apothecary and 3 units of Devs the other day, was very hardy. I threw in a Lieutenant (they are so cheap) in to the group as well just to get re-roll 1s to wound in addition to the re-roll 1s to hit.

[Rodrick]

so, anyone has tested 6 dev centuions with chief apothecary?

[Aothaine]

so, anyone has tested 6 dev centuions with chief apothecary?

 

I really think there are better options for Iron Hands. Cents are good for sure. They will perform similarly to the Aggressors I think. But if you're going to make a fire base like this maybe run something like this?

 

1 unit 6 Dev Cents (They can be taken in 6 right?) and 1 Executioner. Have the power Apothecary and Tech Marine allowing you to heal and rez a good portion of the two units. You'll want some defense for the characters though. Take the guys that can soak hits with Stormbolters and Stormshields maybe? 

 

This way everything has a decent save, heal, resurrect, etc.

[chapter master 454]

I'll try and cook something up for this week to test it. Sadly can't go full ham, biscuits and wine with 18 but can get to 12 Devastator Centurions. No executioner because those shoe boxes aren't fun.

 

Going to see if I can try and do some form of "grinder" style list. Just walk up the board with a 5++ backing me and see what happens. Will have to pad out the infantry with intercessors sadly but oh well. See how it goes.

[faithonwings]

I'll try and cook something up for this week to test it. Sadly can't go full ham, biscuits and wine with 18 but can get to 12 Devastator Centurions. No executioner because those shoe boxes aren't fun.

 

Going to see if I can try and do some form of "grinder" style list. Just walk up the board with a 5++ backing me and see what happens. Will have to pad out the infantry with intercessors sadly but oh well. See how it goes.

Interested in you'r findings, let me know how it goed.

[Aothaine]

I'll try and cook something up for this week to test it. Sadly can't go full ham, biscuits and wine with 18 but can get to 12 Devastator Centurions. No executioner because those shoe boxes aren't fun.

 

Going to see if I can try and do some form of "grinder" style list. Just walk up the board with a 5++ backing me and see what happens. Will have to pad out the infantry with intercessors sadly but oh well. See how it goes.

 

Jebus 12 Dev Cents. I would love some pics and a batrep if you have the time for it. Also, Intercessors are really really good with Iron Hands. Give them the sniper rifle for some S4 -3 D2 goodness at 36". They are damned scary with Iron Hands. When I start building my primaris line of Iron Hands they are all going to have Stalker Bolt Rifles.

 

If you have the ability, be sure to grab that new apothecary so you can give some of the units the 5+++ as well. 

[chapter master 454]

So an update and to be honest, more of a eulogy than a battle report really because the opponent wasn't exactly high grade competitive and more fluffy however it did show some power of the list.

 

Key notes: opponent with dumb luck shouldn't be used to measure success. He had a demon prince of nurgle multi-charge my 2 centurion squads (they were next to other) and somehow barely died...it was a total of 9 centurions with good chunk of grav and some lascannons, 5 of them on 4+ to hit on the overwatch and it was close.

 

However my luck wasn't exactly great ether. My rolls on the 5+ FNP was fairly miserable while my opponents dice had a serious case of "one-o-phobia" where they seemed to roll 1s so few times it was just insane.

 

However the game was still fairly one sided. The Centurions did prove as tough as I would of expected along with just as deadly in return. 2+ save helping immensely but utlimately the 5+++ was just bad luck for me (out of a series of rolls, I made I think a total of maybe 3-4 out of 25), my scouts had better luck with their raw 6+++ they had which says a lot about the game.

So really, needs more testing but I will say there may be a failing in the ability to support the unit. While the unit is beastly by itself and chapter master support does what it always does, there did seem to be a sense of anaemic ability, however that could be the fact the game was called at turn 3 (he had basically nothing left, a squad of blightlords DS in to only get auspex scanned straight back off which shows his awareness and level) and thus the main element to test being the longevity of the unit wasn't really seen. Chief Apoth did well though I would comment that I don't know how relics work in relation to opponents but certainly the list would use different relics for different lists, the gorgon chain just never did anything (because nothing survived long enough to threaten him).

 

Again, the centurions really need something stiffer to face to really test them sadly, ether some list with immense firepower/attack power to test the durability of them OR another grinder list to see if they can indeed grind it out. 

[Aothaine]

I hope you bought the other player a beer/soda after that game. Losing like that can be a bit rough and talking it over a pint/soda can go a long way to keeping someone in the hobby and enjoying the game. Thank you for the update for sure! Were you able to snap any photos? I'm sure the sight of 12 centurions was a frightening scene.

[faithonwings]

So an update and to be honest, more of a eulogy than a battle report really because the opponent wasn't exactly high grade competitive and more fluffy however it did show some power of the list.

 

Key notes: opponent with dumb luck shouldn't be used to measure success. He had a demon prince of nurgle multi-charge my 2 centurion squads (they were next to other) and somehow barely died...it was a total of 9 centurions with good chunk of grav and some lascannons, 5 of them on 4+ to hit on the overwatch and it was close.

 

However my luck wasn't exactly great ether. My rolls on the 5+ FNP was fairly miserable while my opponents dice had a serious case of "one-o-phobia" where they seemed to roll 1s so few times it was just insane.

 

However the game was still fairly one sided. The Centurions did prove as tough as I would of expected along with just as deadly in return. 2+ save helping immensely but utlimately the 5+++ was just bad luck for me (out of a series of rolls, I made I think a total of maybe 3-4 out of 25), my scouts had better luck with their raw 6+++ they had which says a lot about the game.

So really, needs more testing but I will say there may be a failing in the ability to support the unit. While the unit is beastly by itself and chapter master support does what it always does, there did seem to be a sense of anaemic ability, however that could be the fact the game was called at turn 3 (he had basically nothing left, a squad of blightlords DS in to only get auspex scanned straight back off which shows his awareness and level) and thus the main element to test being the longevity of the unit wasn't really seen. Chief Apoth did well though I would comment that I don't know how relics work in relation to opponents but certainly the list would use different relics for different lists, the gorgon chain just never did anything (because nothing survived long enough to threaten him).

 

Again, the centurions really need something stiffer to face to really test them sadly, ether some list with immense firepower/attack power to test the durability of them OR another grinder list to see if they can indeed grind it out. 

 

Thanks for the recap. Works for me.

 

So the apothacary didn't do as expected, but when it comes to having to roll 5+++ it could be considerd normal when rolling poor for them during one game. Did you gave the apothacary any warlord traits? Did you menage to heal/ revive any dead centurions?

[chapter master 454]

Aothaine: He is actually a regular opponent I face at the club between him and his brother. They are kinda new to the game still in a lot of aspects and are enjoying the fluff side of it but sadly for them the club is leaned towards the competitive side of things with only a few fluffy players kicking around really and he is determined to beat me one day...reminds me of myself when I started 40k and kept getting beaten by eldar. As for a picture...no...my centurions aren't painted along with a good chunk of my marines. Heck, my Tau are more painted than my marines and I've had them a fraction of the time!

 

Faithonwings: He did have a warlord trait...that's how you get the 5+++ on your units in Iron Hands. "Father of the Future" normally emits a FNP aura at 6" of only a 6+++ but with Iron Hands it is modified to being a 5+++. As for relics, already covered that. In terms of reviving centurions, yes I did. Despite his great luck at saves, he somehow always exact change killed a centurion in one squad which meant I would get an attempt at reviving and the re-roll did help, brought a centurion back twice.

 

Further to my thoughts there: pocket Apothecaries for all centurion squads in the future may be a good idea. Due to Chief Apothecary only working on revive rolls, the other Apothecaries can be used purely for the healing part and only revives when nothing else is needed while Chief Apothecary focuses on getting revives done and only healing when nothing else needs done. Really, my biggest annoyance is we can't get "Father of the Future" and "Selfless Healer" on the same guy...but that would be kinda nutty!

[faithonwings]

Oops, I meant a second warlord trait. Isn't it possibble to give the apothacary the double heal and 5+++ buffs by making him the warlord and giving him 2 traits?