Black Templar Warlord Trait Tactica

[Medjugorje]

- Heroic Interventions on 6" (still sucks)

- deny a psychic power like a sourcerer  (its okay)

- Mortal wound if charged (BS)

- always fight first (no one Need such BS like this)

- ap increase by 6s bubble (seems okay)

- plus one to charges and advancing. (could be a Thing)

 

again i am very disappointed. Even because the emperors Champion cannot take "Champion of humanity" it makes him worse then before...

to be honest - our Special Charakters have the better ones.

[Punchomatic]

Did you just make two separate threads to complain about how disappointed you are?

 

Where’s your zeal, brother? Have heart, we are better than before and there are a lot of positives in the new rules!

[Medjugorje]

no. I want to discuss just those WL-Traits. And in the other thread i want to talk just about the lithany table.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

- Heroic Interventions on 6" (still sucks)

- deny a psychic power like a sourcerer  (its okay)

- Mortal wound if charged (BS)

- always fight first (no one Need such BS like this)

- ap increase by 6s bubble (seems okay)

- plus one to charges and advancing. (could be a Thing)

 

again i am very disappointed. Even because the emperors Champion cannot take "Champion of humanity" it makes him worse then before...

to be honest - our Special Charakters have the better ones.

 

1: it's OK. Probably the second weakest of the bunch, but could be used in a gunline army to have a Teeth of Terra marshal killing chargers on thier turn.

 

2: Situational. Between this, Grimaldus, and our chapter tactic, we can seriously screw with psychers now. Toss in the 2+ psychic wounds relic and or the -1 to casts relic and we can be a serious pain for any psychic heavy army.

 

3: If this were 1 mortal per model, or 1d3 per unit, it'd be worth considering. I'd put it on a chaplain dread. But as it stands it is clearly the weakest of the bunch.

 

4: Your assessment here is far from accurate. With the way charges work, any army that wants to multi charge you has to fear this tactic. It gives the character a 2+ CP strat for free as wella s allow ing you to interrupt their charges twice rather than once, potentially screwing up the trian of attacks they'd like to do. But more importantly than that, consider our new 1 CP strat for piling in and consolidating 6". A killy warlord with this can slay a unit, consolidate into another unit that has already fought (or hasn't and the marshal can survive), and kill that one with 3 CP CP fight again, consolidate another 6 inches onto a third target, deny that target from falling back in the opponent's movement phase, then fight first in the opponent's turn. Now, this requires the luck of the dice to go your way, but fighting first can seriously up the survival of a Marshal who is abusing consolidation to jump around.

 

5: My personal least favorite after the 2+ mortals. I don't think it stacks with assault doctrine, and the potential utility of our other WT edge it out.

 

6: It just works. Whether combined with other nonsense to make a turn 1 charge work, increasing deepstrike odds, or getting you that extra inch to sprint onto a last minute objective, this is good.

 

 

In short, I feel that we didn't come up too badly here. We obviously didn't get some of the insanity of others like consolidating 6 away from enemies after fighting, or halving all incoming damage, but we didn't get nothing. There are strengths hidden in these traits to be played to.

[Medjugorje]

on Point 4:

 

 if you have any unit with his ability the enemy starts to attack this model/unit at first. There are some possibilities:

 

 

1. another Units get charged and they are very important so them would be attacked first - (it means that your character is not as important)

2. another Unit get charged which is not that imporatant like your Charakter - the enemy will ignore them.

3 there is no other Charge - wasted

4. more then one enemy unit charged your Charakter - the strongest will hit first, so it doesnt matter.

 

 

and on Point 5 ( If I read correctly - then it stack with the doctrine) seems okay if you have enough attacks.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

on Point 4:

 

 if you have any unit with his ability the enemy starts to attack this model/unit at first. There are some possibilities:

 

 

1. another Units get charged and they are very important so them would be attacked first - (it means that your character is not as important)

2. another Unit get charged which is not that imporatant like your Charakter - the enemy will ignore them.

3 there is no other Charge - wasted

4. more then one enemy unit charged your Charakter - the strongest will hit first, so it doesnt matter.

 

 

and on Point 5 ( If I read correctly - then it stack with the doctrine) seems okay if you have enough attacks.

 

1: If that's the case and your character is charged but the enemy attacks the more important unit first, then you get to fight directly after. That means you save the 2 cP that you would have had to spend to itnerrupt and possibly save your character. Also, I'd need to check the language, but you might be able to use the 1CP pile in strat on your opponent's fight phase as well, meaning that you can give it to the character after charges are made, possibly tempting them into attacking him first. If they do, then the more important unit you were worried about can spend 2+ CP or use one of our litanies to interrupt. If they don't, then he can try to kill what charged him and then get a 6 consolidate.

 

2: If this is the case and they charge your character with only 1 unit, the warlord trait is mostly useless, unless that character that charged him is buffing another squad that charged something else. If the warlord was charged by 2 or more units, then this warlord trait will activate after the first, letting you punch back and saving you 2 CP, which is a point you bring up in 4 but you make a false assumption there.

 

3: only wasted if you can't abuse it the next turn by fighting first then.

 

4: Incorrect. While it is true that the strongest unit will always fight first, it is flat wrong that the other units fighting wont' matter. If you are charged by a squad of lightning claw terminators and a smash captain, and you survive one or the other, you will absolutely want to interrupt and try to kill the second before it can finish you. This saves you the 2 CP you'd need to spend to do that, which is big in an army that will be starving for CP like ours.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

 

on Point 4:

 

 if you have any unit with his ability the enemy starts to attack this model/unit at first. There are some possibilities:

 

 

1. another Units get charged and they are very important so them would be attacked first - (it means that your character is not as important)

2. another Unit get charged which is not that imporatant like your Charakter - the enemy will ignore them.

3 there is no other Charge - wasted

4. more then one enemy unit charged your Charakter - the strongest will hit first, so it doesnt matter.

 

 

and on Point 5 ( If I read correctly - then it stack with the doctrine) seems okay if you have enough attacks.

 

1: If that's the case and your character is charged but the enemy attacks the more important unit first, then you get to fight directly after. That means you save the 2 cP that you would have had to spend to itnerrupt and possibly save your character. Also, I'd need to check the language, but you might be able to use the 1CP pile in strat on your opponent's fight phase as well, meaning that you can give it to the character after charges are made, possibly tempting them into attacking him first. If they do, then the more important unit you were worried about can spend 2+ CP or use one of our litanies to interrupt. If they don't, then he can try to kill what charged him and then get a 6 consolidate.

 

2: If this is the case and they charge your character with only 1 unit, the warlord trait is mostly useless, unless that character that charged him is buffing another squad that charged something else. If the warlord was charged by 2 or more units, then this warlord trait will activate after the first, letting you punch back and saving you 2 CP, which is a point you bring up in 4 but you make a false assumption there.

 

3: only wasted if you can't abuse it the next turn by fighting first then.

 

4: Incorrect. While it is true that the strongest unit will always fight first, it is flat wrong that the other units fighting wont' matter. If you are charged by a squad of lightning claw terminators and a smash captain, and you survive one or the other, you will absolutely want to interrupt and try to kill the second before it can finish you. This saves you the 2 CP you'd need to spend to do that, which is big in an army that will be starving for CP like ours.

 

 

 

There is a player at my LGS that runs a lot of Slaanesh. When this rule is army wide it is absolutely stronger than just slapping it on one or two units, but the inconvenience you can cause your opponent by being able to interrupt two, or even 3 times during the charge phase shouldn't be ignored. We can get up to 3 interrupts if we use the warlord trait, litany, and 2 CP strat, possibly breaking the back of a series of charges if our enemy leans too heavily on a mass strike. Facing any sort of charge heavy army like Khorne, Orks,  or Nids will see this pay off.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

on Point 4:

 

 if you have any unit with his ability the enemy starts to attack this model/unit at first. There are some possibilities:

 

 

1. another Units get charged and they are very important so them would be attacked first - (it means that your character is not as important)

2. another Unit get charged which is not that imporatant like your Charakter - the enemy will ignore them.

3 there is no other Charge - wasted

4. more then one enemy unit charged your Charakter - the strongest will hit first, so it doesnt matter.

 

 

and on Point 5 ( If I read correctly - then it stack with the doctrine) seems okay if you have enough attacks.

 

1: If that's the case and your character is charged but the enemy attacks the more important unit first, then you get to fight directly after. That means you save the 2 cP that you would have had to spend to itnerrupt and possibly save your character. Also, I'd need to check the language, but you might be able to use the 1CP pile in strat on your opponent's fight phase as well, meaning that you can give it to the character after charges are made, possibly tempting them into attacking him first. If they do, then the more important unit you were worried about can spend 2+ CP or use one of our litanies to interrupt. If they don't, then he can try to kill what charged him and then get a 6 consolidate.

 

2: If this is the case and they charge your character with only 1 unit, the warlord trait is mostly useless, unless that character that charged him is buffing another squad that charged something else. If the warlord was charged by 2 or more units, then this warlord trait will activate after the first, letting you punch back and saving you 2 CP, which is a point you bring up in 4 but you make a false assumption there.

 

3: only wasted if you can't abuse it the next turn by fighting first then.

 

4: Incorrect. While it is true that the strongest unit will always fight first, it is flat wrong that the other units fighting wont' matter. If you are charged by a squad of lightning claw terminators and a smash captain, and you survive one or the other, you will absolutely want to interrupt and try to kill the second before it can finish you. This saves you the 2 CP you'd need to spend to do that, which is big in an army that will be starving for CP like ours.

 

 

 

There is a player at my LGS that runs a lot of Slaanesh. When this rule is army wide it is absolutely stronger than just slapping it on one or two units, but the inconvenience you can cause your opponent by being able to interrupt two, or even 3 times during the charge phase shouldn't be ignored. We can get up to 3 interrupts if we use the warlord trait, litany, and 2 CP strat, possibly breaking the back of a series of charges if our enemy leans too heavily on a mass strike. Facing any sort of charge heavy army like Khorne, Orks,  or Nids will see this pay off.

 

Slaanesh is SOOO DIFFERENT to our one model. REALLY. Because you have so much units with this special rule. One model with this rule is BS... a lot of them keep the enemy often from charging.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

 

 

 

on Point 4:

 

 if you have any unit with his ability the enemy starts to attack this model/unit at first. There are some possibilities:

 

 

1. another Units get charged and they are very important so them would be attacked first - (it means that your character is not as important)

2. another Unit get charged which is not that imporatant like your Charakter - the enemy will ignore them.

3 there is no other Charge - wasted

4. more then one enemy unit charged your Charakter - the strongest will hit first, so it doesnt matter.

 

 

and on Point 5 ( If I read correctly - then it stack with the doctrine) seems okay if you have enough attacks.

 

1: If that's the case and your character is charged but the enemy attacks the more important unit first, then you get to fight directly after. That means you save the 2 cP that you would have had to spend to itnerrupt and possibly save your character. Also, I'd need to check the language, but you might be able to use the 1CP pile in strat on your opponent's fight phase as well, meaning that you can give it to the character after charges are made, possibly tempting them into attacking him first. If they do, then the more important unit you were worried about can spend 2+ CP or use one of our litanies to interrupt. If they don't, then he can try to kill what charged him and then get a 6 consolidate.

 

2: If this is the case and they charge your character with only 1 unit, the warlord trait is mostly useless, unless that character that charged him is buffing another squad that charged something else. If the warlord was charged by 2 or more units, then this warlord trait will activate after the first, letting you punch back and saving you 2 CP, which is a point you bring up in 4 but you make a false assumption there.

 

3: only wasted if you can't abuse it the next turn by fighting first then.

 

4: Incorrect. While it is true that the strongest unit will always fight first, it is flat wrong that the other units fighting wont' matter. If you are charged by a squad of lightning claw terminators and a smash captain, and you survive one or the other, you will absolutely want to interrupt and try to kill the second before it can finish you. This saves you the 2 CP you'd need to spend to do that, which is big in an army that will be starving for CP like ours.

 

 

 

There is a player at my LGS that runs a lot of Slaanesh. When this rule is army wide it is absolutely stronger than just slapping it on one or two units, but the inconvenience you can cause your opponent by being able to interrupt two, or even 3 times during the charge phase shouldn't be ignored. We can get up to 3 interrupts if we use the warlord trait, litany, and 2 CP strat, possibly breaking the back of a series of charges if our enemy leans too heavily on a mass strike. Facing any sort of charge heavy army like Khorne, Orks,  or Nids will see this pay off.

 

Slaanesh is SOOO DIFFERENT to our one model. REALLY. Because you have so much units with this special rule. One model with this rule is BS... a lot of them keep the enemy often from charging.

 

 

I agree. but we can get up to 3. If you choose the correct 3, that can be devastating. This warlord trait is just one piece of a bigger series of tactics. I'd say it's far from bad. The only really awful trait we got is the 2+ mortal wounds. I'm a fairly tactical player, though, so having odd ways to throw my opponent off their game plays well to my strengths. This is an ability that I could use to surprise the hell out of someone who wasn't expecting it, and against tournament level players it's going to dictate where and how many of their forces they expend in a single round of charges. Though, being honest, I've never faced a tournament level player that multi charged much anyway. All the tournament lists I struggle with are heavily shooty, which is why I'm perfeclty fine with a couple ways to slap fight first into my army and abuse the hell out of 12 inch movement in the fight phase.

[Medjugorje]

its possible with the lithany, the WL-Trait and 3 Company veterans (i think they have the same rule).

Vanguard Detachment with Emperors Champon + 3x Company Veteran sounds funny.

[Palmu]

Having options is nice, but looking over the entire book, our WT's are just...So disappointing. On one hand, we have one extremely good WT in Frontline Commander, and since we already have Master Swordsman from Vigilus we're basically all set on the WT side of things, but on the other we have 5 boring, weak or unimaginative ones. Contrast and compare with damn near ALL heretic WT's, where I struggled to find even a single bad or boring one. 

 

Grass is greener and all that, but just take a look through the heretic sides of the book, big oof. I have to wonder who was in charge of the BT side of things for the book. 

[Schlitzaf]

So WT;

SwordMaster - WT of Trolls

Deny Trait - Is Amazing. It gives us a third deny built into our army. Grimaldus, Abhor and now this. Needing more than 2 is debatable.

Fighting First - Between this and Litany, plus counter attack makes us solid at withstanding assault

Storm of Fire for Assault - Not foo Flashy, but it gets the job done. Solid for Soup Templar’s wouldn’t use it elsewhere.

Mortal Charge - I don’t see this trait anymore...we only have 5 traits in this book right guys?

Assault&Charge - Just like NotStorm is a solid trait, well rounded. It’s not bad but competes with Deny Trait, Swordsman and Vanilla Marine ones. But solid to have.

 

In general nothing here is superb or to right home about they are in general just solid. Which is fine by me.

[AlmightyWalrus]

+1" to charges from something was the number one thing on my wishlist, because it makes our Deep Strike charges actually work. I might actually be able to use my TH/SS or Lightning Claw Terminators again, because by far their biggest issue has been delivery, and now we can reliably get them into combat.

 

Yes, a lot of the others are meh, but I'm just extatic about Frontline Commander at the moment. I'll go back to griping once the novelty wears off.

[Palmu]

Assault&Charge - Just like NotStorm is a solid trait, well rounded. It’s not bad but competes with Deny Trait, Swordsman and Vanilla Marine ones. But solid to have.

 

We can have basically guaranteed +6 charges from deep strike, with re-rolls. While this isn't the edition of close combat, that's still ridiculously good and will probably define all half-competitive BT lists to come. 

[Schlitzaf]

 

 

Assault&Charge - Just like NotStorm is a solid trait, well rounded. It’s not bad but competes with Deny Trait, Swordsman and Vanilla Marine ones. But solid to have.

 

We can have basically guaranteed +6 charges from deep strike, with re-rolls. While this isn't the edition of close combat, that's still ridiculously good and will probably define all half-competitive BT lists to come.

You know this trait and canticle doesn’t stack right?

[Palmu]

Canticle specifies that it doesn't stack with ABILITIES. Warlord Traits and Stratagems aren't Abilities, or are they?

[Lysere]

 

 

 

Assault&Charge - Just like NotStorm is a solid trait, well rounded. It’s not bad but competes with Deny Trait, Swordsman and Vanilla Marine ones. But solid to have.

 

We can have basically guaranteed +6 charges from deep strike, with re-rolls. While this isn't the edition of close combat, that's still ridiculously good and will probably define all half-competitive BT lists to come.

You know this trait and canticle doesn’t stack right?

What makes you say they don't stack? Unless either of them explicitly say they don't stack they will. Different rules boosting the same roll or stat will stack.

 

I guess with the wording that begs the question what is an ability, and what even counts as an aura.

 

Might be good faq question considering we have several ways to boost our auras.

 

Yeah re read canticle of hare. Honestly forgot it even said that. So with our warlord trait and strats we can get a similar effect as canticles of hate. So either that's a good reason to take different litanies or we can do that for several units at once.

[Palmu]

I've been digging through the rulebook, and for the time being I've yet to find anything that specifies what exactly is an "Ability", which is quite frustrating. You'd think that all these keywords would actually specify what falls within their range of effect. 

[Hymnblade]

I suspect "ability" is supposed to be a catch-all that means "any other effect".

[Palmu]

That WOULD be logical, but there are a few places in the rulebook where abilities, rules and warlord traits are referred to as their own entities, for example this cut from Matched Play:

 

The limit of gaining or refunding 1 Command Point per battle round

does not apply to the Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities,

or to the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait – in these cases, the

ability/Warlord Trait can refund or gain the player more than 1

Command Point.

 

Things like this are what I absolutely hate and GW rules-writing has always been riddled with. 

[Medjugorje]

 

Assault&Charge - Just like NotStorm is a solid trait, well rounded. It’s not bad but competes with Deny Trait, Swordsman and Vanilla Marine ones. But solid to have.

 

We can have basically guaranteed +6 charges from deep strike, with re-rolls. While this isn't the edition of close combat, that's still ridiculously good and will probably define all half-competitive BT lists to come. 

 

 

at the first sight i thought it is a okay but now I am sure its a very good choice. The question is if you want a buff character or a Fighter like our "Swordmaster". Helbrecht is strong now and fulfill both now... I like his new WL-Trait.

 

Canticle of hate is more for a chaplain with Jump pack who jumps to deepstriking Units while Helbrecht (or any other char) pushes (with Stratagem to advance and Charge) give 2+ on Charge to disembarked unit for example.

[redmapa]

So would it be possible to have a Phobos army and have 2 Warlords (with the Hero of the Chapter stratagem), one with Frontline Commander and another with Master of the Vanguard, to have an army that has +2" to advance/charge? Im not sure how viable this would be but it seems like a neat combo and would alleviate the weakness an infiltrating list has by not having the first turn as you can deploy more conservatively and still reach the enemy.

[Acebaur]

 

 

Assault&Charge - Just like NotStorm is a solid trait, well rounded. It’s not bad but competes with Deny Trait, Swordsman and Vanilla Marine ones. But solid to have.

 

We can have basically guaranteed +6 charges from deep strike, with re-rolls. While this isn't the edition of close combat, that's still ridiculously good and will probably define all half-competitive BT lists to come. 

 

 

at the first sight i thought it is a okay but now I am sure its a very good choice. The question is if you want a buff character or a Fighter like our "Swordmaster". Helbrecht is strong now and fulfill both now... I like his new WL-Trait.

 

Canticle of hate is more for a chaplain with Jump pack who jumps to deepstriking Units while Helbrecht (or any other char) pushes (with Stratagem to advance and Charge) give 2+ on Charge to disembarked unit for example.

 

 

You can't use The Emperor's Will strat to advance and charge on a turn you deepstrike because that happens at the end of the movement phase. A unit can only advance when they are chosen to move. 

[Medjugorje]

 

 

 

Assault&Charge - Just like NotStorm is a solid trait, well rounded. It’s not bad but competes with Deny Trait, Swordsman and Vanilla Marine ones. But solid to have.

 

We can have basically guaranteed +6 charges from deep strike, with re-rolls. While this isn't the edition of close combat, that's still ridiculously good and will probably define all half-competitive BT lists to come. 

 

 

at the first sight i thought it is a okay but now I am sure its a very good choice. The question is if you want a buff character or a Fighter like our "Swordmaster". Helbrecht is strong now and fulfill both now... I like his new WL-Trait.

 

Canticle of hate is more for a chaplain with Jump pack who jumps to deepstriking Units while Helbrecht (or any other char) pushes (with Stratagem to advance and Charge) give 2+ on Charge to disembarked unit for example.

 

 

You can't use The Emperor's Will strat to advance and charge on a turn you deepstrike because that happens at the end of the movement phase. A unit can only advance when they are chosen to move. 

 

I mean that each of them buff different units... for both its +2" what is huge

[Champion Rawne]

Which warlord trait does Grimaldus have to take?