Unit of the Week: Vanguard Veteran Squad

[Jolemai]

Welcome to part three of the Blood Angels Unit of the Week Series!

Following the release of the 8^th edition Codex, there is no better time to discuss all the units we have access to. Each week a different unit will appear, with the idea being that we discuss how best to use that model on the battlefield. Where part one will focus on the unique BA units and part two will focus on BA units that are new to this edition of the Codex, part three will discuss how to get the best use the generic units from the past that are still with us (and that many of us have in our armies still).

Note, this isn't to lament any nerfs, etc, from previous editions; the rules are as they are so try to unlock its potential for those who wish to use them all the same. Similarly, this thread is only for using the option being discussed; it matters not if you feel something is a better choice as such comments aren't constructive to the topic and shall be removed.

Without further ado, here's this week's entry:

Vanguard Veteran Veteran Squad

VAS, Auberon

What are you thoughts here folks? How best would you use some VAS?

• To compliment a list, or to build a list around? Will the beta rules affect your list(s)?
• Will you be running multiples? MSU or full squads? Do you make use of the Combat Squads special rule?
• Footslog, jump pack, or transport?
• What weapon choices do you prefer and how much does it depend on the above choices?
• Are you buffing this unit? If so, how?
• Stratagems of note?

Over to you.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Jolemai

[Jolemai]

Should you want your model on display here (or on another thread from the series), then submit a photo here please.

[Xenith]

I've used a couple of squads recently, 5 with 2 shields, and 10 with 7 shields. The 7 shields did much better. I'd go full shields, if points allow, for 20pts for the unit its a steal and a massive boost to survivability. 

[Karhedron]

There are a couple of draws for Vanguard Veterans to my mind. Firstly, a crazy number of cheap attacks if you equip with dual chainswords. Secondly you can take cheap invulnerable saves. Thirdly you can take hard hitting weapons for smashing large targets. With those 3 facts in mind, I think the following 3 builds are the logical conclusion. I would always take Jump Packs to get them where we are going.

 

The Blender

 

Dual Chainswords. 5 attacks each on the charge with Red Thirst is crazy and these guys will mulch pretty much any infantry without power armour. Whether you need to clear screens or get a blob off an objective, these guys will deliver the goods.

 

The Tarpit

 

Chainswords and Storm Shield. Not quite as choppy as the Blender but still a respectable 4A per model and the durability really gets a boost from the 3++. Even a small squad of these guys can lock down down big monsters from rampaging through your lines for a couple of turns until you can bring heavy weapons to bear or Captain Smash wanders over to do what he does best.

 

The Big game Hunters

 

Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield. Cheap flying thunder hammers backed up by an Invulnerable save. Whilst not quite in the league of Captain Smash, they do generate a respectable number of attacks for their points. Even at -1 to-Hit, some of them are going to stick. There is a good chance that THs for characters will be going up in CA19 to match the new SM Codex so these guys might look even more attractive in comparison.

 

Although extreme, the beauty of VanVets is their flexibility meaning you can mix or match within a squad for TAC lists if necessary. I think that these guys are better than DC in a lot of cases thanks to their ability to take Storm Shields for just 2 points. Even with SSs, they are cheaper than DC and a 3++ will likely keep more guys alive than a 6+++. I really like Van Vets.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Karhedron

[Majkhel]

Lets not forget the power fist option.

Quoting after Morticon from his China Open thread:
 

 

Curious Morticon, about the fists in your DC compared to Hammers.
I know there cheaper, but I've been burned by d3 damage before.
How has it been for you?
...

They're brilliant, and I don't see myself going back to hammers again.  

It's 3 hammers vs 5 fists, 12 attacks vs 20.  The d3 damage evens out nicely - also, more importantly, vs single wound tough models, you're smashing with wounding on 2s with a boat load of attacks - throw in Astorath and you're laughing. 

If you're used to 2 hammers in a DC squad, i can understand.  If you're used to 5 for example, try 8 fists! I promise, you wont be sorry. 

This is ofcourse about DC, but the same applies to VV.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Majkhel

[Panzer]

Yeah with the current points situation I'd rather take fists over hammers on regular infantry.

[Neuralshock]

I think pound for pound the vanguard vets are the better but in comparison to the death company. You have a Sargent for one, more survivable with ss, for less points. You don't get some of the DC support, but I think these guys are more likely to stick around longer

[Morticon]

I've been playing 10 vanguard with my BA for a while now. 

I've always struggled with their damage output prior to the Shock Assault buff, and while I was much happier after, I still wasn't sold.  This changed for me when I changed their load out. 

I now run 5 powerfists and 10shields (235 points).  Occasionally I drop 2 shields and go double swords (Since BA can still do this- while Vanilla cant) - but I have been SUPER happy with them.  

They are MVPs in my recent games. 

[Jolemai]

Those having success with them, how are you using them? What are you using in support?

[Klod]

I'm thinking about making a fluffy unit of 5 Vanguard.

 

An elite squad of veterans, let's call them "Celestial Hunters", who have a particular theme and style to them. Not only visually, but also fluff-wise. Let's say their role is to hunt down the toughest, meanest monsters on the battlefield.

 

Rough concept of how I see them:

 

Rulewise, I will probably equip them with an index option of power lances, and kit them out with Prosecutor Tridents (below, not my model), plus some other Stormcast bits.

 

 

Thoughts?

[Morticon]

Those having success with them, how are you using them? What are you using in support?

 

With my BA, i'm using Astorath and DC.  I *may* switch to 2x 10 Vanguard because the new marine meta requires 3++. 

[Damon Nightman]

I'm sure there are better plasma options, but I absolutely love my 5 man squad with all dual plasmas. They come down with a capt with a combiplasma (sometimes with the +1 damage trait) and blast stuff. Look cool on the table too.

 

I try to avoid the typical loadouts for VVs if possible just for fun. Like instead of TH/SS I'm building a squad with 7 inferno pistols and mix of power swords, shields, and fists. I cant wait to get them on the table and just melt everything with those pistols... if I can get them in range ;). I'm sure TH/SS is a better loadout though

[Jolemai]

You give the Captain Artisan of War in this setup? Edited November 21, 2019 by Jolemai

[Jolemai]

 

As for your other builds, it just goes to show how flexible they are. I've fancied a squad of gunslinging VAS since 6th and I know Charlo has the option of doing it with hand flamers...

[Damon Nightman]

Oh I have a hand flamer squad in the works too lol. Partly if not fully inspired by charlo. I started them right before the change from D3 to D6 for hand flamers coincidentally. I'm a slow painter though...

 

So, I have a 10 man squad with mix of hand flamers and chainswords, 10 man squad with the inferno pistol/shields/power swords/power fists, then my 5 man dual plasma squad. I've only used the plasma squad in game. I want to add more bodies to the plasma guys since they perform well for me (and look so cool). Can't wait to run all 3 squads together at some point.

 

I use the artisan of war on the combiplasma. The straight 2 damage or 3 with overcharging is nice. It has been a lot more effective than putting the extra damage on his melee weapon. If it wasn't obvious, I'm not very competitive.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Brother Lemartes

[Indefragable]

As another data point to consider, I run them as the follows:

 

5x VV

-jump packs

-Sgt Thunder hammer and inferno pistol

-3x vets w chainswords and storm shields

-1x w/ dual chainswords

 

The concept here is that they tie up scary things with their 3++ shields. They exist to keep the Sgt alive so that it’s basically 4x ablative wounds for him. With 4A on the charge, he can do work with the TH and I’m a known fan of sprinkling inferno pistols for targets of opportunity. Getting locked in combat can be great as well for inferno pistols, doing an additional D6 damage before swinging with a TH is not bad at all.

 

The dude with chainswords is there to add some more attacks against light enemies and to be the first casualty against bolter spam. If you have the points, then there’s nothing wrong with going 4x SS dudes instead. If you went 6+ bodies I would add more SS then non-SS dudes until you have 6x SS and 3x non SS + the Sgt. This seems like a weird condo guy ration, but that’s kind of the point: it confuses the enemy as well. Mixed saves in a unit are fun since plasma is “wasted” against the unit because you can use 3++ shields against it, yet bolter spam is “wasted” because you can have cheap-ish 3+/2+ in cover ablative wounds to absorb. Maybe it’s because I’ve played against a lot of Deathwatch, but i find it effective.

 

A mixed setup like this also tends to scare your opponent, since they are just scary enough to be disastrous to ignore, yet it takes a disproportionate amount of attention to remove them from the board: attention not going elsewhere.

 

Granted i haven’t used them a ton, but my reps have been effective as planned and promising. I don’t think one way to run them, but I’m not saying it’s the best. VV are an incredible option because there’s so much choice to them.

[Xenith]

Thoughts on 1x10 man v 2x5?

 

2x5 you get an extra attack from the second sergeant, and mess with your opponents target priority a bit more - with 10 man he can just point everything at them and forget, while 2x5 he has to divide the shooting and risks overkill or underkill.

 

Downside is spending CP on 2 small units over 1 large. Captain rerolls dont care, though. 

[Majkhel]

Thoughts on 1x10 man v 2x5?

 

2x5 you get an extra attack from the second sergeant, and mess with your opponents target priority a bit more - with 10 man he can just point everything at them and forget, while 2x5 he has to divide the shooting and risks overkill or underkill.

 

Downside is spending CP on 2 small units over 1 large. Captain rerolls dont care, though. 

All fair points.

I'd add: 1 less drop for a 1x10 unit in missions where it matters.

[Panzer]

Unless you want to use Stratagems on them like the 3d6 charge one, or psychic powers like the +1A one, I'd always go with 2x5 over 1x10. MSU has still most of the advantages.

[Morticon]

With us likely to be getting the regular SM strats  - Transhuman + 3++ followed by a 5+++ pushes these guys to a near auto-include. 

[Karhedron]

With us likely to be getting the regular SM strats  - Transhuman + 3++ followed by a 5+++ pushes these guys to a near auto-include.

The 5++ from the SoS or Litany of Faith? Or does it not matter?

[Indefragable]

If the -1 To Hit for Death Masks thing is to be believed, then I think it's going to still be a tough choice between Van Vets and Sang Guard.

 

Vanguard Veterans: 3+/3++, Transhuman, 5+++

Sanguinary Guard: 2+, -1 To Hit, Transhuman, 5+++

 

Obviously some matchups are better than others (i.e. SW neutralize -1 To Hit) and I suspect that the Death Mask buff is only in melee.

[Panzer]

Don't forget that SG has two wounds. It would give them the edge imo.

[Xenith]

I think for sanguard to be better the cost of encarmine weapons needs to drop down to be the same as the identical force weapons.

 

But that's beside the point of this thread.

 

 

Are we seeing any benefit/use to traditional pistol and weapon vanguard, or is the 2pt stormshield just too good to pass up? Maybe I should make a couple of ablative wounds with 2x swords?

[Indefragable]

I think for sanguard to be better the cost of encarmine weapons needs to drop down to be the same as the identical force weapons.

 

But that's beside the point of this thread.

 

 

Are we seeing any benefit/use to traditional pistol and weapon vanguard, or is the 2pt stormshield just too good to pass up? Maybe I should make a couple of ablative wounds with 2x swords?

 

To me, the reason to bring VV is the 3++. Almost anything else can be done better by someone else. I consider DC > VV for chainsword attacks since DC can Forlorn Fury and get re-rolls from Lemartes.

 

The one place VV have a weird but potent angle is taking 2x inferno pistols, but I have used Company Vets for that instead since you can go 2-5 bodies on CV.