Unit of the Week: Vanguard Veteran Squad

[Morticon]

I think for sanguard to be better the cost of encarmine weapons needs to drop down to be the same as the identical force weapons.

 

But that's beside the point of this thread.

 

 

Are we seeing any benefit/use to traditional pistol and weapon vanguard, or is the 2pt stormshield just too good to pass up? Maybe I should make a couple of ablative wounds with 2x swords?

 

I usually play 10 man, 5 fists, 8 shields.  The 2 without usually soak mortals.  Don't play without a majority of shields !!

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

Same could be said about the 3++, plus they get the bodyguard rules. The thing that separates VV from Coy. Vets in my mind is the jump packs, yes I know with the index we can still take them, but they might not even make it to legends, as they are not an index unit, and AFAIK legends is going to be for units, merely a unit option. Also what separates Coy Vets from sternguard is heavy weapons and special issue bolters.

[Charlo]

With the new rules and bonuses to charge from deep strike im still going to give my maxxed hand Flamers unit a go!

 

It's a fairly cheap distraction with the potential to do a silly amount of hits.

 

I also think it may be worth keeping them back and just jumping forward like normal too.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

re-Bumping for relevance. 

That's pretty solid Charlo. There's so much win for them with the update.

[Charlo]

Just realised that the hand flamers would be AP1 in assault doctrine too.

 

Laughs in Burn.

[Loishy]

With the new rules and bonuses to charge from deep strike im still going to give my maxxed hand Flamers unit a go!

 

It's a fairly cheap distraction with the potential to do a silly amount of hits.

 

I also think it may be worth keeping them back and just jumping forward like normal too.

 

Sorry I don't understand what you intend to do with your hand Flamers squad. I must forget something 

 

Can you explain a little more  ? 

[BluejayJunior]

A squad of all dual hand flamers would put out 10d6 auto hits. Only S3, but it will take out screens easily. And once in Assault Doctrine, it's at -1 AP as well. 

[Panzer]

A squad of all dual hand flamers would put out 10d6 auto hits. Only S3, but it will take out screens easily. And once in Assault Doctrine, it's at -1 AP as well. 

 

Not just screens. With an average of 35 S3 AP-1 hits you can take out basically any single wound infantry unit. ^^

[Damon Nightman]

Have hand flamers gone up in points yet since the D3 to D6 change? I need to finish painting my VV hand flamer squad!

[Charlo]

Have hand flamers gone up in points yet since the D3 to D6 change? I need to finish painting my VV hand flamer squad!

 

90% sure they're still 1pt in the new Chapter Approved.

[Damon Nightman]

 

 

Have hand flamers gone up in points yet since the D3 to D6 change? I need to finish painting my VV hand flamer squad!

90% sure they're still 1pt in the new Chapter Approved.

Wow that seems ridiculous with D6 shots but what do I know...

 

Hand flamers for everyone!!!

[Indefragable]

...and AP-1 in the Assault phase!

[Dont-Be-Haten]

So all models have the gunslinger rule now right? You can shoot all weapons or pistols or throw a grenade right?

 

I've not been clear on that since they removed the rule.

[Charlo]

Yup. You can shoot:

 

- All weapons except pistols + one model Chuck's a Grenade instead

- All pistols + one Grenade instead

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Yup. You can shoot:

 

- All weapons except pistols + one model Chuck's a Grenade instead

- All pistols + one Grenade instead

Too bad you have to be so damned close to get the bookoos of shots off.

 

Still I think we should name the unit "Yeet Cannon"

[Loishy]

A squad of all dual hand flamers would put out 10d6 auto hits. Only S3, but it will take out screens easily. And once in Assault Doctrine, it's at -1 AP as well. 

I get this point, but with the short range of the hand-flamers I don't understand how you can be very effective. 

 

Or you intend to play them like a counter attack unit ? 

 

 

[BluejayJunior]

 

A squad of all dual hand flamers would put out 10d6 auto hits. Only S3, but it will take out screens easily. And once in Assault Doctrine, it's at -1 AP as well. 

I get this point, but with the short range of the hand-flamers I don't understand how you can be very effective. 

 

Or you intend to play them like a counter attack unit ? 

 

 

 

You would start them on the board and move them up to where they are needed. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

 

 

A squad of all dual hand flamers would put out 10d6 auto hits. Only S3, but it will take out screens easily. And once in Assault Doctrine, it's at -1 AP as well.

I get this point, but with the short range of the hand-flamers I don't understand how you can be very effective.

 

Or you intend to play them like a counter attack unit ?

 

 

You would start them on the board and move them up to where they are needed.

The new standard that gives jumpy boys an additional 2" movement at the start of the movement phase may be a requirement. This is charlo's unit from when flamers were fantastic and we had templates. Since we lost templates hand flamers have fallen by the wayside

[Charlo]

They're a relatively *cheap* unit that because of their uniqueness, opponents may well over estimate and sink fire into.

 

If they do make it, they can put out silly amounts of dice and are just overall fun.

 

I don't plan on them being insanely effective but I do think they'll be maximum FUN.

 

And yeah, DBH is right, I started to build the unit in 7th ed back when you could cause impact hits on landing then shoot all your flamers point blank. Deep strike flamers was my bag in 7th.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Charlo

[Thoridon]

Also as requested, 9th edition numbers for VV (single model with jump pack charging, unbuffed and without stratagems):

 

 

With the current rules, lightning claws seem to be the real winners. 1 is already more efficient than other power weapons and can be paired with a SS for resilience. 2 claws will shred infantry and still be ok against tough targets.

 

Hammer + Shield can also work for monster hunting, lacking the raw damage of some other units but the 2+ / 4++ perhaps allowing them to survive a monster hitting back over a turn or two.

 

There are then the pistol options which can be a nice addition for these chaps.

[aquamarine]

Nice to see they were allowed to keep the double chainsword option where other had a max 1 limit imposed

[Hintzy]

Are folks bothering to give the Sergeant anything special, like a Thunder Hammer or relic blade? And with the new options he could even take Teeth of Terra, Master-Crafted Weapon, or Quake Bolts.

[AngelofRedemption]

Are folks bothering to give the Sergeant anything special, like a Thunder Hammer or relic blade? And with the new options he could even take Teeth of Terra, Master-Crafted Weapon, or Quake Bolts.

 

Master-crafted relic blade seems pretty tasty!

[Indefragable]

Also as requested, 9th edition numbers for VV (single model with jump pack charging, unbuffed and without stratagems):

 

 

With the current rules, lightning claws seem to be the real winners. 1 is already more efficient than other power weapons and can be paired with a SS for resilience. 2 claws will shred infantry and still be ok against tough targets.

 

Hammer + Shield can also work for monster hunting, lacking the raw damage of some other units but the 2+ / 4++ perhaps allowing them to survive a monster hitting back over a turn or two.

 

There are then the pistol options which can be a nice addition for these chaps.

 

 

Nice to see they were allowed to keep the double chainsword option where other had a max 1 limit imposed

 

@Thoridon how would double chainswords factor into this graph? I have to imagine that dual LC's would still be better in a vacuum, but for point efficiency I have to imagine dual chainswords skyrocket to the top against anything T4 or under. 

[Jolemai]

Interesting discussion and mathhammer going on here following the AoC change:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373896-vanguard-vets-loadout-changes/?do=findComment&comment=5817358

 

How could we use this to our advantage?