Unit of the Week: Vanguard Veteran Squad

[Paladin777]

On the charge (not in assault doctrine), A VV Against MEQ a single lightning claw still edges out a single PS on the charge when combined with red thirst.

 

The LC does 1.18W whereas the PS does 1.11.

 

In assault doctrine the LC does 1.97 and the PS does 1.85.

 

Just saying...

 

When you get rid of the Red Thirst (using a successor tactic or something), then the claw still edges out the sword.

Out of Assault doctrine the claw is 1 wound, and the Sword is .89

In assault doctrine the claw is 1.66 wound and the sword is 1.48.

[Morticon]

Ahoy!

Just throwing some thoughts into the mix here:

Squad of 5 VanVets assuming Assault Doc and Charge
 

5 claws, vs 10Claws vs PS (Red Thirst vs BH/WWoW Successors)

 

RED THIRST
 

5 Claw V AOC-MEQ:

11.5Dam- 5Dead

 

10 Claw V AOC-MEQ:

13.7Dam - 6Dead

 

5 Power Swords V AOC-MEQ

9.7Dam - 4Dead

 

BH/WWoW
 

5 Claw V AOC-MEQ:

13Dam- 6Dead

 

10 Claw V AOC-MEQ:

15.5Dam - 7Dead

 

5 Power Swords V AOC-MEQ

11.6Dam - 5Dead

 

 

Assuming you were charged (RT is unchanged) 

 

BH/WWoW
 

5 Claw V AOC-MEQ:

10.8Dam- 5Dead

 

10 Claw V AOC-MEQ:

12.9Dam - 6Dead

 

5 Power Swords V AOC-MEQ

9.7Dam - 4Dead

 

 

 

[Paladin777]

Are your numbers for BH/WWoR made using both of the chapter tactics at the same time? Just wanting to make sure.

[keeblerartillery]

My issue with BH/WWoR is that it is fairly easily duplicated within our lists as is - so I can effectively get those benefits AND +1 to wound and charge. But cheers on the work!

[Paladin777]

Another way of thinking about it is that with the red thirst going, 4 PS attacks has the same output as 5 LC attacks against MEQ. This means that your model has to have 4 attacks without the claw's bonus attack for the PS to break even. Once you hit 5 attacks and up without the claw's bonus, the PS starts edging out the claw.

 

Without RT going the ratio is 5 PS to 6 LC, requiring greater than 5 attacks per model before the claw's bonus attack in order for the sword to pull ahead.

 

In assault doctrine, 6 PS attacks has the same output as 7 LC attacks with red thirst. In assault doctrine without RT, 10 PS attacks is equal to 11 LC attacks.

 

So I f you're using BH and WW together to get a bazillion bonus attacks, then yes the PS can edge out the LC when combined with models that have a decent number of attacks base. However, in pretty much all other circumstances the LC is still probably going to edge out the PS.

 

Edit: Against TEQ, the Sword starts to look a lot more competitive until the assault doctrine kicks in, then the claw defends it's title as the best 1D weapon.

 

It's a little more than 3 sword attacks to 4 claw attacks with or without Red Thirst going, so if the model has more than three attacks before any bonus for the claw the sword is better. Less than three and the claw is better. at three attacks the difference is negligible.

 

In the assault doctrine it's 4 sword attacks to 5 claw attacks with the red thirst, and without the red thirst its about 6 sword attacks to 7 claw attacks.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Paladin777

[Morticon]

My issue with BH/WWoR is that it is fairly easily duplicated within our lists as is - so I can effectively get those benefits AND +1 to wound and charge. But cheers on the work!

 

The same combo (+1 to hit, exploding 6's and +1 to wound ) is just as easily duplicated  with a Chaplain with the BH/WWoW combo.

The other way around requires an Ancient/Relic and a Librarian and is only for one unit.  

 

The second you put rerolls to hit into the mix, its even more in favour of the successors. 

If all your units put out better damage and one unit puts out the same, the net gain is in favour of the successors.  

 

Are your numbers for BH/WWoR made using both of the chapter tactics at the same time? Just wanting to make sure.

Defintiely, yeh. 

[keeblerartillery]

I disagree mort. Sang guard get +1 to hit from the warlord. Quake bolts give it to anyone attacking the felled target. Astorath with mass and Ancient to round out.

 

True on the exploding 6’s though. So I guess it depends on your list construction. But passing out 2s to hit is fairly easy and all those units were already things I was running - and only got better with the update.

 

Food for thought!

[Paladin777]

It really depends on your army composition. If you're running around with a bunch of blade guard veterans and Sanguinary guard with some chain sword death company on the side then red thirst is definitely better! however, if you've got a bunch of hammers and fists, then the extra hits provided by WW/BH are definitely going to be preferable. IIRC, Lightning claws tend to favor extra hits, but only by a very small amount.

 

Ultimately, they're both quite viable.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Paladin777

[Morticon]

I disagree mort. Sang guard get +1 to hit from the warlord. Quake bolts give it to anyone attacking the felled target. Astorath with mass and Ancient to round out.

 

True on the exploding 6’s though. So I guess it depends on your list construction. But passing out 2s to hit is fairly easy and all those units were already things I was running - and only got better with the update.

 

Food for thought!

Makes perfect sense if its all already in your list! Must be super exciting now. I think players playing with this style are going to absolutely love it. 

 

For me, Ive never considered Astorath (though, may really reconsider now with his 2+), but if i did, would not use MoD. Not worth the risk for me - especially with expensive models. 

I also, wouldn't personally waste a relic slot on Quake Bolts.   I also havent been using the Ancient, which some swear by! Just cant bring myself to pay 110 for that model.  The Wrath of Baal/WL combo for him seems to work well, I just...cant seem to justify it in my lists.  (And this is being said knowing full well that the most successful BA lists in tournaments in the last 18 months have been the triple SG/Wrath Ancient lists - just doesn't play into my style well).

 

I found my playstyle with the SG didnt work well with having the WL and the SG work together, as they often needed to go solo.  Tagging a character with them to get that +1 always felt too much of an investment for what its worth. 

 

It really depends on your army composition. If you're running around with a bunch of blade guard veterans and Sanguinary guard with some chain sword death company on the side then red thirst is definitely better! 

How do you figure matey? I've been running all of those for a while, and the damage output is lower with just RT when just comparing the raw numbers to the BH/WWoW combo. Curious to hear in what what you rate its better? 

[Karhedron]

I quite like Quake bolts on my Eliminator sergeant and Eliminators look even tastier with AoC.

[Paladin777]

How do you figure matey? I've been running all of those for a while, and the damage output is lower with just RT when just comparing the raw numbers to the BH/WWoW combo. Curious to hear in what what you rate its better?

I was more referring to the damage aspect of RT vs the damage aspect of either BH or WWoR, not both. If I was to play successor rules I would more likely take WWoR in conjunction with Stalwart, or maybe the one with reroll one's on bolters (I really like bolter inceptors and I'm looking forward to trying my bolter aggressors with AoC!) for my second tactic over BH, so knowing what I'm giving up is important.

 

I freely acknowledge that using both together definitely outdamages RT on its own, but it's also comparing two chapter tactics against one. RT still gives the extra 1" to charge and Advance rolls, which would be nice on the aforementioned aggressors or anything else with assault weapons for that matter!

 

Though against anything with THP or similar, RT does fall flat on it's face and really needs to be able to ignore it..

 

Edit: In order for the RT to beat out both WW and BH together, you'd either have to be swinging at something at double toughness; or be swinging at a target with equal or greater toughness than your strength while already having a 2+ to hit without BH.

 

Both of which are very niche scenarios.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Paladin777