Reconciling Firstborn Marines in your army?

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

See, here's the thing. I'm a Chaos player. Some of the "current" Chaos sculpts are still older, smaller Marines from before the new wave of Plague Marines, Rubrics, Havocs, Raptors and basic CSM got upscaled so they're about the size they should be - namely, Berzerkers. How would you reconcile your 'Zerkers being a head shorter than the rest of your army in lore, and how would you make them feel like a good height in modeling (say, taller bases)?

I figure this topic also applies to loyalist players, since their Firstborn stuff hasn't been upscaled either. Thoughts, fellow power armor players?

In order to clarify, a "Firstborn Marine" would be any Space Marine or Chaos Marine sculpt older/shorter than the current Chaos sculpts (resin Plague Marines, plastic Berzerkers and current Tacticals are good examples of this).

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Edited November 26, 2019 by Chaplain Dosjetka
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[Slave to Darkness]

I dont mix old and new sculpts in the same army, when Emperors Children get an update Ill end up with two Slaanesh marine armies. . As for loyalists Ill never use Primaris so the scale difference wont be an issue. 

[Dagoth Ur]

I don't mix old and new sculpts as well when it comes to infantry. I'll get new Zerkers when they get made or convert them from the NEW csm if they dont need to be overtly khornate. As for loyalists, I mix and match units I like. I love the sternguard kit, so I have a few. I find the regular tactical kits extremely boring so I dont have them. I like Intercessors and Hellblasters, so I have those. etc.etc.etc. I don't mind the size difference.

[Grotsmasha]

If you're talking about completed models, I would consider adding 3mm spacers to the bottom of their bases, this will add to the overall height without needing to rebase. If you're talking about building new ones, then using the AoS range to supplement conversions on the newer Chaos sculpts would be the best route to go.

[Master Commander Ajax]

Honestly I would just try and ignore it. GW didn’t use the lore to address scale creep until recently and that’s proven to be a real can of worms. The old “it’s impossible to fit ten Space Marines into a Rhino” example is just one of the many scale discrepancies in 40K.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

See, what I've got is an upcoming Khornate character model with the body, legs and head off of an old-school Berzerker. I'm using an AoS base off of one of the easy-build Stormcasts, modified basically by sticking a power pack onto it to cover up the peg hole and foot cutout (painted DAngels green with steel bits as a poke against my most regular opponent) and fully painted. The lad will be modeled with a dynamic pose, stepping between two parts of the base - actually, not unlike a different Stormcast in the same set. He'll also have modern Chaos parts if I find they look okay on him - specifically, the Reaper Chaincannon and related parts out of the Havoc kit. I've got mostly modern Chaos sculpts in the army, so I'd like to come up with a reason to explain him being shorter. However, I also feel this is a game-wide issue, rather than just pertaining to my specific problem, what with the prevalence of pre-Modern Chaos sculpts on both loyalist and traitor sides.

[Gederas]

I don't mix old and new sculpts as well when it comes to infantry. I'll get new Zerkers when they get made or convert them from the NEW csm if they dont need to be overtly khornate. As for loyalists, I mix and match units I like. I love the sternguard kit, so I have a few. I find the regular tactical kits extremely boring so I dont have them. I like Intercessors and Hellblasters, so I have those. etc.etc.etc. I don't mind the size difference.

Pretty much this.

 

With my Chaos forces, I only use newer kits. With Berzerkers, I've kitbashed the ones for my World Eaters pretty heavily. For my Night Lords? Spares of the melee dudes from Shadowspear.

 

For Loyalists, it doesn't matter as much to me, as the height difference between Firstborn and Primaris is an actual in-lore thing.

[MegaVolt87]

I am just using old sculpts, mk 3-4 with 30k terminators. No scale creep is an issue with my IW's.

[Slave to Darkness]

Could just say hes generally shorter than everybody else due to being from a high gravity homeworld. I know theres the whole 'height difference in real life etc' argument to hand wavium away scale creep yea sure but I didnt know power armour stretches or shrinks to fit the wearer... 

 

Id say take Grotsmashas advice, bump the base up a little. Or cut the thighs and lower leg and add plasticard spacers to get a few mil extra. 

 

 

Now I have the urge to use Primaris and count them as true scale old marines and have ten jump out of a 1st ed clown car Rhino, and haveRTB01 minis as the HQ's.

[Marshal Reinhard]

As a loyalist, the answer for me is that I keep old marines and Primaris completely separate. I'm just too sensitive to the fact that a primaris and old marine together essentially look like father and son marine cosplaying. The problem doesn't arise when you got all primaris or all old marines.

[Evil Eye]

Fortunately for me, most of my smaller CSMs are currently sitting disassembled, and will be given some height boosts with some wire, greenstuff and extra bits and pieces. I won't bother reposting the image of the Noise Champion I've converted this way but it's in the CSM forum...somewhere.

 

I do have a few that are PIP that are now rather short next to their kin, unfortunately, but as they're fairly few in number I can just excuse the height variance as natural (or chaotic) variation that comes with millennia of fighting near the Eye of Terror.

 

With regards to the Berzerker kit, I'd be tempted myself to convert the new CSM kit with AoS Khorne parts, and maybe a few Berzerker bitz here and there (some of the heads are pretty good still and you can always do weapon transplants). Or if you're feeling brave/short on cash, do the upscaling trick on the Berzerker kit and make some cheap, nicely sized angry bois.

 

For Loyalists, honestly I think the current kits are fine. They're not tiny (IIRC they're bigger than the older CSMs) and whilst not true-scaled they still look good. They're smaller than the new CSMs but that's acceptable IMO, given Chaos shenanigans. Plus, the entire Space Marine line is pretty modern and up to date, the only "firstborn" kit that's somewhat old being the standard Terminators, and even they're alright.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Chaplain Dosjetka
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[Marshal Rohr]

Saw the thigh and shin in the middle, add two pieces of .75mm plasticard. Clip the excess and shave it down the match the thigh and shin shape. At the waist add a single piece of .75mm plasticard and a roll a small sausage of greenstuff around the ball joint to help the hold. At the neck add a little bit of Green stuff in a ball, eyeball an anatomically correct neck length within the armor (you eye will tell you what is convincing better than any measuring). Use pouches to hide the waist join, and pose to taste. The oldmarine will only be slightly shorter than the primaris marine. They will be slightly taller than a chaos marine, but in the same scale. Since Primaris aren't actually much taller than a normal marine, just slightly taller and stockier the two silhouettes are more lore accurate. 

[mughi3]

"Counts as"

I'm not giving in to GWs evil machinations I am not going to replace my marine armies with the new shiny because they (poorly) retconned the lore and pushed the primaris stuff on us to sell new minis.

 

the new models look great of course, but I already have my squads of tac and assault marines DONE, I will not remake them again. I neither have the time or interest in doing so.

 

I have already built 7 full armies since 3rd, I will not buy any more new minis from GW. I have all my epic stuff from 3rd parties and I already have a full chaos and necron battlefleet.

[Slave to Darkness]

Our very own Lexington did something similar here... http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271049-lexingtons-word-bearers-41919-csms-and-dreads/

[Marshal Rohr]

The most important thing is don't give into the impulse to use Terminator legs. You can make some amazing conversions, this forum is filled with these beautiful thicc bois, but you will scale your self out of vehicles and Terminators (having to resort to using Custodes termies for the latter) and they will have their own distinct aesthetic that doesn't mesh with Primaris either. Terminators as truescale is it's own sub-group of true-scale and not something undertaken lightly. 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Slave to Darkness]

I tried making a truescale terminator once... Never again. 

[Redcomet]

World eaters geneseed makes for shorter marines.

 

So Zerkers are Smol but Angry

[Berzul]

"Counts as"

I'm not giving in to GWs evil machinations I am not going to replace my marine armies with the new shiny because they (poorly) retconned the lore and pushed the primaris stuff on us to sell new minis.

 

the new models look great of course, but I already have my squads of tac and assault marines DONE, I will not remake them again. I neither have the time or interest in doing so.

 

I have already built 7 full armies since 3rd, I will not buy any more new minis from GW. I have all my epic stuff from 3rd parties and I already have a full chaos and necron battlefleet.

 

I'm taking this approach as well.

 

I am close to "finishing" my core army plans right now, and as long as I can play them in a counts-as-basis, I will.

 

Or, if it comes to it, I'll just play my lists per the Legacy Rules, which is where the chibi marines are going into sooner or later anyway.

 

I'll just be playing squat-primaris until then.

[Beta galactosidase]

Lol by cutting a section out of the newer sculpts’ thighs. Yes, it is boring and tiresome.

 

 

LUCKILY I saw a crimson fists captain in white dwarf where a studio guy instead of doing a full on truescaling had just stuck bit of sprue between the torso and leg pieces, so some of my marines have slightly longer middle sections.

 

I’m a medium effort guy, I call it mehffort.

[Evil Eye]

I know I said I wasn't going to link my upscaled Noise Champion again but, uh, I lied.

I would imagine this technique works pretty well with filthy Loyalists too, though some sculpts (notably Sternguard) might be harder to upgrade than others. Though saying that, most of the more tricky to upscale minis (such as the Sternguard and Deathwatch) are already at a more sensible stature than the standard Tactical Marines anyway.

[El_Dicko]

As someone who was just building up a massive chaos horde using Mk IV and Mk III plastics when the new stuff started dropping, I just built up the bases and divided stuff up by squads, mainly. New units like berserkers I just made from the new CSMs bodies. I have been super slow to make some fallen because the old metal dark angels models and even the plastic DA vets are sooo tiny but I think being in a separate detatchment and building up bases should make it a non issue.

[Vermintide]

I just pretend the old models are further away.

[Sonoftherubric21]

I echo many of the frater in this thread: I don't mix sculpts barring something really nice (The Forgeworld Thousand Sons Helbrute for example) but beyond some very minor exceptions I use new sculpts almost exclusively. 

 

ATM I do not use Berzerkers or Possessed (awaiting new kits) and I use a single unit of Noise Marines (Forgeworld Kakophoni) but its few and far between for older figures or "manlets" as it were. I will also replace the Noise Marines in my Black Legion the day the new kits go up for Preorder. 

 

I am incredibly OCD and the Noise Marines being a pinch shorter then my 50 some odd Black Legionaries I can chock up to a Meth/Coke habit   But even that bothers me a great deal despite liking how the unit looks. 

[Slave to Darkness]

I just pretend the old models are further away.

Have the old ones stood nearer to the enemy so they all look the same scale, worked for Dani Filth in every Cradle of Filth picture ever. 

Just look at how tiny he is!!! Even stood on the fireplace he is smaller than the drummer. 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Slave to Darkness

[killersquid]

I mix traditional and primaris Units in my space wolves army all the time. I don't see an issue with it. I have 2000pts of traditional, and primaris, so I like to use a bit of both. There are some niches which my primaris units can't fill, and vise versa.

 

I love the look of the primaris kits more than the older stuff though, so I tend to lean more towards that stuff.