Make Terminators Great Again

[Chaplain Elijah]

It seems there is a consensus about 8th Edition not being very Terminators friendly.

So i would like to hear your opinions about that and your eventual solutions to fix them.

 

Here's my list :

 

Points reduction = the simplest solution but probably not the most elegant one

Third Wound = but are you ready to pay the Land Raider price for a squad of 5 ?

T5 = make them more tanky against S4, S5 and S8 (overcharged plasma)

reroll succesfull to-wound = great against saturation, pretty much useless against S8+

Feel No Pain = overlap with Death Guard and Iron Hands

attacks are at -1AP = a slight buff, but overlap with Thousand Sons

attacks are at -1Dmg = doesn't help versus saturation but help greatly versus overcharged plasma and the likes

reroll failed armour save = help greatly against saturation

roll armour & invulnerable save = a great buff, storm shield terminators mustn't benefit from that

reroll failed invulnerable save = idem as before

[Panzer]

Here we go again. 

[Dark Shepherd]

T5 AND 3 wounds just like Aggressors

Or t5 and 4++

[Slasher956]

Personally why doesnt power armour have FNP 6+ agains t AP0?  It has pain supresents built in...

 

Then Terminator armour could get FNP 6+ aginst AP-1 as well?

 

The DG & IH (and Valarous Heart SoB) get a better FNP...

[MARK0SIAN]

I’d go for T5, 3 wounds and reduce AP of incoming attacks by -1. All with no additional points cost.

[dice4thedicegod]

I’d halve ap for anyone with terminator keyword and leave it at that.

[Special Officer Doofy]

As someone who mains death guard and has used T5 4++ 5+++ terminators, they are not worth the points. Maybe certain Legions can make use of them, I know the world eaters ones can get nasty now and probably have charge work arounds. But with a mostly melee specialty with the slowest movement in the game basically (4" and halve advance rolls for the DG ones), if you fail the charge after deepstrike, that's 200pts+ wasted. Things can walk away and kite them all day.

 

I would think an extra wound or -1ap incoming would be the best route. I'd buy a 'MTGA' hat haha.

[Panzer]

As someone who mains death guard and has used T5 4++ 5+++ terminators, they are not worth the points. Maybe certain Legions can make use of them, I know the world eaters ones can get nasty now and probably have charge work arounds. But with a mostly melee specialty with the slowest movement in the game basically (4" and halve advance rolls for the DG ones), if you fail the charge after deepstrike, that's 200pts+ wasted. Things can walk away and kite them all day.

 

I would think an extra wound or -1ap incoming would be the best route. I'd buy a 'MTGA' hat haha.

 

Keep in mind that you also pay for those additional rules. People here are talking about getting the additional defense without increasing the points obviously.

[jaxom]

Perhaps fix it with a stratagem? Something along the lines of a bonus to saves against Str5 or less weapons and reduce damage by one against Str6 or more weapons until your next turn.

[Panzer]

Perhaps fix it with a stratagem? Something along the lines of a bonus to saves against Str5 or less weapons and reduce damage by one against Str6 or more weapons until your next turn.

 

Please no. Units should be viable even without pumping CP into them. Stratagems aren't there to fix units.

[PeteySödes]

 

Perhaps fix it with a stratagem? Something along the lines of a bonus to saves against Str5 or less weapons and reduce damage by one against Str6 or more weapons until your next turn.

 

Please no. Units should be viable even without pumping CP into them. Stratagems aren't there to fix units.

 

 

This as well as the fact that TDA heavy armies are likely CP starved anyways. 

[chapter master 454]

To be honest they really should be a "High Defence, Low Offence" sort of unit relatively speaking. Yes mass bolter fire gets work done and they can take some heavy weapons but overall they shouldn't be much more than something you can't shift. They land in a key location and now you have it...good luck shifting them.

 

Terminator Armour has always had this issue though, Lore wise it is called the God of all armour, so much protection even your children have an armour save, get stomped on by a warhound? No problem, just get your mates to help haul your 5 ton butt back to your feet! It is the emperors most potent protection that no shot can ever violate...

 

Gameplay wise? So easily bypassed it is a meme and the occupants wish they opted for being centurions. As it stands, you could take Centurions over Terminators and largely get the same effect. Only missing deep strike (if you aren't RG) but overall actually can do what terminators say they can do.

 

In general: No FNP boost, the rules should revolve around making the user much harder to kill and to be done so via wounding and saves, the suit itself isn't a special apothecary variant thing.

First: Improve their armour save to 1+. The game has 7+ saves so why not return the opposite. Still failing on a 1 naturally. Change the Crux Terminatus effect to "Reduce the AP of weapons targeting this unit by 1". Add "attacks with strength 4 or lower have a minus 1 to wound rolls" because its terminator armour, Lasguns should NOT be doing squat to these guys. Lastly, I suppose we can add one last thing to amp their toughness, "Any unit charging units with this special rule do not gain any benefit from charging, such as always going first from charging or any other benefit related to when the unit charges". These guys are walls of ceramite that weighs so much that charging them is not great for crashing into...seriously even other astartes would struggle knocking a terminator over.

 

There, more silly ideas added to this old can of worms.

[Panzer]

 

First: Improve their armour save to 1+. The game has 7+ saves so why not return the opposite. Still failing on a 1 naturally. Change the Crux Terminatus effect to "Reduce the AP of weapons targeting this unit by 1". 

 

When the base armour save is already 2+ or better then reducing the AP by 1 is literally the same as improving the armour by 1. So you might just as well give them a 0+ save if you want to combine those two things.

Edited December 11, 2019 by sfPanzer

[MoshJason]

To be honest they really should be a "High Defence, Low Offence" sort of unit relatively speaking. Yes mass bolter fire gets work done and they can take some heavy weapons but overall they shouldn't be much more than something you can't shift. They land in a key location and now you have it...good luck shifting them.

 

Terminator Armour has always had this issue though, Lore wise it is called the God of all armour, so much protection even your children have an armour save, get stomped on by a warhound? No problem, just get your mates to help haul your 5 ton butt back to your feet! It is the emperors most potent protection that no shot can ever violate...

 

Gameplay wise? So easily bypassed it is a meme and the occupants wish they opted for being centurions. As it stands, you could take Centurions over Terminators and largely get the same effect. Only missing deep strike (if you aren't RG) but overall actually can do what terminators say they can do.

 

In general: No FNP boost, the rules should revolve around making the user much harder to kill and to be done so via wounding and saves, the suit itself isn't a special apothecary variant thing.

First: Improve their armour save to 1+. The game has 7+ saves so why not return the opposite. Still failing on a 1 naturally. Change the Crux Terminatus effect to "Reduce the AP of weapons targeting this unit by 1". Add "attacks with strength 4 or lower have a minus 1 to wound rolls" because its terminator armour, Lasguns should NOT be doing squat to these guys. Lastly, I suppose we can add one last thing to amp their toughness, "Any unit charging units with this special rule do not gain any benefit from charging, such as always going first from charging or any other benefit related to when the unit charges". These guys are walls of ceramite that weighs so much that charging them is not great for crashing into...seriously even other astartes would struggle knocking a terminator over.

 

There, more silly ideas added to this old can of worms.

At that point, you'd need to drastically increase their cost.

 

You'd need 78 lasgun shots on average to deal 1 wound, so 156 to kill a Terminator. That's 78 guardsmen firing at them, or 312 shots

 

Fine -- anti infantry isn't supposed to kill them? Well, a 0+ save means plasma reduces their save to 3+, unless they are in cover and if they are, it's a 2+. So the weapon designed to kill a terminator? You'd still need 15 shots, and would likely blow up a few Guardsmen along the way. That's 4 pts for each Guardsmen plus 7 for the plasma gun, so 165 without factoring in all the other bodies that the Guardsmen need for plasma spam.

 

So even if terminators got that much more durable, they'd have to cost more, and then they'd be worse, since they can't increase firepower without costing more.

 

Though, really, if you want your terminators to feel strong, play a lower point game with cities of death rules -- the +2 for hard cover, -1 to hit for obscure, movement and melee being way more of a focus, makes Terminators feel much stronger.

[jaxom]

I think it may be useful to compare termies to a similar unit. Here's an Intercessor and the cheapest Terminator option (Chaos w/chainaxe and combi-bolter) I could find:

Astartes 2W Model Comparison

-IntercessorTerminator

M6”5”

WS3+3+

BS3+ (1 or 2 Str4 AP-1 attacks)3+ 4 Str4 AP0 attacks

S44

T44

W22

A2 Str4 AP0 attacks2 Str5AP-1 attacks

Ld78

Sv3+2+/5++

Total Points1726

 

EDIT: Fixed the table formatting.

 

A nine point difference for greater offense and defense. However, how much of a difference does extra attacks have compared to extra AP? How much of a difference does the melee damage play? I'm going to take the time and work out the stats equivalency vs GEQ and MEQ.

 

Regarding stratagems and units:

 

Perhaps fix it with a stratagem? Something along the lines of a bonus to saves against Str5 or less weapons and reduce damage by one against Str6 or more weapons until your next turn.

 

Please no. Units should be viable even without pumping CP into them. Stratagems aren't there to fix units.

 

 

To avoid confusion, do you mean a unit that works in a role or a unit that is equally or more attractive compared to other units that fill the same role? I ask because I agree that stratagems shouldn't be a crutch for fixing a unit that does not work in its role or is so mechanically underwhelming that it's offensive. If the latter, then I disagree, but I think that would be a topic for a different thread.

Edited December 11, 2019 by jaxom

[Chaplain Elijah]

IMHO the #1 strength of the Terminator Armor is it's incredible durability against saturation and great defense against anti-tank weaponry.

It's #1 weakness is poor mobility.

So given the rules should reflect the fluff i'd suggest :

 

 

Crux Terminatus

Model have an invulnerable save of 5+.

When rolling for a Save, if the model didn't advance in it's previous Movement phase, add 1 dice and discard the lowest result (doesn't apply to the Storm Shield rule).

 

 

Yes that rule would apply to both Armor and Invulnerable saves (but not to the 3++ from the Storm Shield). Regarding Mathammer :

 

Wounds suffered against 1 hit ( Vanilla Terminator vs Modified Terminator )

AP0 (2+) = 0.17 vs 0.03, so to do 1 Wound you would need 5.88 hits vs 33.33 hits

AP1 (3+) = 0.33 vs 0.11, so to do 1 Wound you would need 3.03 hits vs 9.09 hits

AP2 (4+) = 0.50 vs 0.25, so to do 1 Wound you would need 2.00 hits vs 4.00 hits

AP3 or better (5++) = 0.67 vs 0.44, so to do 1 Wound you would need 1.49 hits vs 2.27 hits

 

So the modified rule would be a tremendous buff against AP0 but decrease dramastically in effectiveness as AP increase.

One problem i see is that Cataphractii would become more resilient than Storm Shield Terminators so i would change their rule into this :

 

 

Cataphractii Armor

Model have an invulnerable save of 4+. Halve advance roll.

When rolling for a Save, if the model didn't move in it's previous Movement phase, add 1 dice and discard the lowest result (doesn't apply to the Storm Shield rule).

[Panzer]

When rolling for a Save, if the model didn't advance in it's previous Movement phase, add 1 dice and discard the lowest result (doesn't apply to the Storm Shield rule).

Just no. It would take ages to roll saves for Terminators with how many shots everything has these days.

[Captain_Krash]

With how dumbed down the rules are currently in 8th. There's no way they would have more dice rolling mechanics added in just for saves.

 

Terminators excel in what they were made for. Boarding actions play a few games with terminators in Zone Mortalis and it will change your view on them, they seriously do work.

 

Krash

Edited December 11, 2019 by Captain_Krash

[Aothaine]

IMHO, you just need to build lists around them. Most people don't. Black Blow Fly, Ultramarines player, plays with Cataphractii and says they have been invaluable to him in pretty much every game. I just think they need to be used differently that they used to be used unless you have some insane stuff with them like World Eaters or White Scars have. The key is to get the melee focused Terminators into combat before your opponent assaults them. The ranged & melee terminators have a lot more flexibility. 

 

My main list for my Iron Hands uses two squads of 5 Cataphractii in a similar build to Black Blow Fly's. They are pretty damn good.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Aothaine

[Evil Eye]

Play scenarios other than straight up minimal terrain "No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination" style deathmatches?

 

+++DISENGAGING SNARK PROTOCOLS+++

 

For real though, as has been pointed out, they excel at their in-fluff role, which is best (but not exclusively) suited to Zone Mortalis and the like. Unfortunately, for the other end of the spectrum (large open killing fields with room for super-units and artillery and whatnot) they suffer from a nasty case of "reality ensues"- that is, elite, expensive equipment that is extremely tough but isn't perhaps the most maneuverable being great in certain situations but ultimately outmatched in general warfare. If you look at IRL armoured vehicles of various eras (as power armour isn't yet in service), slow, heavy and few in number is often a death sentence in a lot of battlefields, as the French found out to their detriment when the nigh-on indestructible and formidably armed but clumsy, sluggish and expensive Char B1 Bis came unstuck against the individually inferior but much more numerous and more nimble German light panzers, even if they did put up a valiant fight.

Now I won't argue you COULD make Terminators more flexible/viable in all scenarios...but if you did they'd end up being monstrously overpowered in a lot of cases, and in their intended purpose (boarding actions/close quarter fighting in confined spaces) they'd be totally unbeatable. Which obviously is not ideal. As someone who prefers that rules reflect fluff rather than vice versa, even if it creates less optimal units in some cases (which is realistic after all; there's a reason the Fairey Battle was abandoned as a frontline fighter) I'm ultimately OK with them being really good at their intended role but not so good at roles outside their specialization. I understand the desire to make them more effective in other roles but the "fictional history simulationist" in me would argue it would be the equivalent of me demanding that M3 Lees in, say, Bolt Action be made into unstoppable death machines simply because tall tanks with a big gun in a sponson AND a turret are really, really cool. Or likewise, that the Malcador was made into an invincible one-tank army in spite of the fluff explicitly outlining it as an outdated (but cool looking) hunk of junk that is mostly seen in underfunded or renegade forces without access to better vehicles, simply because I have an unhealthy infatuation with that beautiful interwar-futuristic lummox.

 

So yeah. Terminators are IMO at least about as good as they realistically can be without breaking from their intended battlefield role, becoming a horrifically cheesy abomination, or worse, both. I think the answer is regrettably to put your general's cap on and only commit Terminators to the battlefield when the situation calls for them, in that boring way warfare tends to work. That, or get together with your opponent and come up with scenarios where Terminators will excel (or at least would make sense to be present) and tailor your lists around that so that you can both enjoy a cool game with Termies (and whatever other specialized/less auto-include units you want to have fun with).

 

That being said, I would like to see pre-Heresy "specialist" Terminators ported over to 40K for the sake of variety and fun. Slaaneshi Terminators with polearms (I've forgotten the name of the EC Terminators but you know what I mean) would rock.

[jaxom]

 

IMHO the #1 strength of the Terminator Armor is it's incredible durability against saturation and great defense against anti-tank weaponry.

 

With how dumbed down the rules are currently in 8th. There's no way they would have more dice rolling mechanics added in just for saves.

 

Terminators are an odd duck in that regard. Their invulnerable save doesn't actually help against most heavy weapons because they tend to be AP-3 and the 5++ only kicks in against AP-4 and higher (I could only find examples of -5 and higher with Titan-class weapons). A 2+ save has the same effect as 5++ save when being stepped on by a Warhound titan. It's one of the reasons Cataphractii are better; they get the 4++ against plasma, lascannons, titan tippy-taps, etc.

 

Damage output stats

442 pt (LCM) vs MEQ comparison

-QuantityMeleeRF RangeRange

Intercessors265.78 wounds8.67 wounds4.33 wounds

Terminators177.56 wounds7.56 wounds7.56 wounds

--Per wound--

Intercessors-0.110.170.08

Terminators-0.220.220.22

--Per point--

Intercessors-1.31E-21.96E-29.8E-3

Terminators-1.71E-21.71E-21.71E-2

 

442 pt (LCM) vs GEQ comparison

-QuantityMeleeRF RangeRange

Intercessors2615.41 wounds19.26 wounds9.63 wounds

Terminators1712.59 wounds20.15 wounds20.15 wounds

--Per wound--

Intercessors-0.300.370.185

Terminators-0.370.590.59

--Per point--

Intercessors-3.51E-24.36E-22.2E-2

Terminators-2.85.71E-24.56E-24.56E-2

 

Hoo, making tables is ridiculous. Good news is the "taking damage" data is easy to summarize. I looked at lasgun, bolter, bolt rifle, pulse rifle, OC plasma, heavy bolter, autocannon, lascannon, meltagun, battlecannon, krak missile, and wounds-on-a-three AP-2 variants. I think I covered most combinations of to-wound value, AP, and damage.The shot ratio is only less than the points ratio for weapons with 2 or more damage (D3 average = 2, D6 average = 3.5) and AP-1 through AP-3. I then compared the ratio of shots required to achieve casualty (i.e. 18 lasgun shots to kill an Intercessor and 26 required to kill a Terminator) to the ratio of points per model (1.53 Intercessors:1 Basic Chaos Terminator; rounded to 1.5:1). Basically, does it take less, equal, or more shots to kill an ratio-equivalent points worth of Terminators?

 

TL;DR:

• Basic Chaos terminators are less killy relative to points cost in melee against GEQs and at <15" range against MEQs than Intercessors.
• Basic Chaos Terminators are equally killy relative to points cost at <15" against GEQs than Intercessors (they cost 1.5 times more than Intercessors and get 1.5 as many kills).
• Basic Chaos Terminators are more killy relative to points cost in melee against MEQs, at >15" range against MEQs and GEQs compared to Intercessors.
• Basic Chaos Terminators are less durable relative to points cost against Combat Doctrined bolter rifles OC plasma, lascannons, krak weapons, and battlecannons than Intercessors.
• Basic Chaos Terminators are equally durable relative to points cost against bolt rifles, heavy bolters, autocannons, and meltaguns (they cost 1.5 times more than Intercessors and require 1.5 times as many shots from these weapons to achieve a kill).
• Basic Chaos Terminators are more durable relative to points against lasguns, bolters, shootas, and pulse rifles than Intercessors.

EDIT: It occurs to me that most armies with Terminators don't have access to a 26 point Terminator. The extra cost tends to be have-to-take melee weapons (power fists, power swords, etc). This compounds the issue because they won't be able to use those weapons if they got shot by the numerous Combat Doctrined bolter rifles OC plasma, heavy bolters, and autocannons (and their chaos or xeno equivalents) and they make the points per kill against GEQs worse than it already is.

 

EDIT 2: Does this mean TacTerminators are an anti-infantry ranged unit and anti-tank melee unit? Are Wolf Guard the best Terminators?

Edited December 11, 2019 by jaxom

[The Unseen]

Terminator fluff isn't just for boarding actions and such.

They're also supposed to be the guys you send in when you want to, say, teleport in and turn the enemy high command into paste, or kill a give tyrant, or hold their ground against impossible odds and anchor a battleline.

 

But they often drop in, fire a few measly bolter shots, then either die or spend all game running after something to punch.

Aggressors do what tactical terminators should, a hyper durable elite unit that can make chaff units suffer critical existence failure at their meer prescence, minus the teleporting.

 

I'm fine with terminators being low on damage for an expensive unit and make up for it in being ridiculously hard to kill, and therefore will kill more in the long run, but they AREN'T.

Theyre less durable vs heavy weapons than regular marines are, while also being less killy per point.

 

And they've been that way for a long time.

Plenty of fixes GW could do, but they won't because theyd rather sell you primaris.

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

 

As someone who mains death guard and has used T5 4++ 5+++ terminators, they are not worth the points. Maybe certain Legions can make use of them, I know the world eaters ones can get nasty now and probably have charge work arounds. But with a mostly melee specialty with the slowest movement in the game basically (4" and halve advance rolls for the DG ones), if you fail the charge after deepstrike, that's 200pts+ wasted. Things can walk away and kite them all day.

 

I would think an extra wound or -1ap incoming would be the best route. I'd buy a 'MTGA' hat haha.

Keep in mind that you also pay for those additional rules. People here are talking about getting the additional defense without increasing the points obviously.

Yeah but I don't think GW would do that. From what I've seen almost every terminator has gone down in points from the leaks I've seen on chapter approved except Blightlord terminators, they still look like 34pts without gear. What do you guys think a basic terminator should be points wise then if they are bumped to T5 4++ 5+++? Cause GW says 34pts without gear plus movement penalties.

[Gederas]

Make it so that they ignore AP up until AP-3 or higher, and even then, they count it as only AP -1 (ie: they ignore the first two levels of Armor Penetration), and Terminator Armour lets them rerolls unmodified save rolls of 1.

 

Also: Reducing all damage by half (to a minimum of 1). IE: Damage 3 becomes 1, Damage 4 becomes 2, etc.

 

As someone who mains death guard and has used T5 4++ 5+++ terminators, they are not worth the points. Maybe certain Legions can make use of them, I know the world eaters ones can get nasty now and probably have charge work arounds. But with a mostly melee specialty with the slowest movement in the game basically (4" and halve advance rolls for the DG ones), if you fail the charge after deepstrike, that's 200pts+ wasted. Things can walk away and kite them all day.

I would think an extra wound or -1ap incoming would be the best route. I'd buy a 'MTGA' hat haha.

Keep in mind that you also pay for those additional rules. People here are talking about getting the additional defense without increasing the points obviously.

Yeah but I don't think GW would do that. From what I've seen almost every terminator has gone down in points from the leaks I've seen on chapter approved except Blightlord terminators, they still look like 34pts without gear. What do you guys think a basic terminator should be points wise then if they are bumped to T5 4++ 5+++? Cause GW says 34pts without gear plus movement penalties.

Deathshroud went down to 25 points per model base.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Deathshroud went down to 25 points per model base.

Deathshroud did because their only weapon loadout is 17 points. Nobody was taking them at 52pts unless it was for morty, and even then it's one turn they are bodyguards because of 4" move and 1/2 advances.