Make Terminators Great Again

[Panzer]

It's not like the 5++ on a 2+ armour does a whole lot these days anyway. 

[Chaplain Elijah]

 

 

Terminator Armor

Model has an Invulnerable Save of 5++.

Before doing an Amour or Invulnerable Save roll 2D6, if the result is superior to the Strength of the Attack the Armour Penetration and Damage of that attack are halved.

That's painfully complicated.

 

 

Another form could be :

 

Terminator Armor

Model has an Invulnerable Save of 5++.

Before doing an Amour or Invulnerable Save roll a D6, if the result is superior to the AP value of that attack it become AP0.

 

 

I took the two ideas and compared what they do to Terminator saves.

 

Save required was easier to plot, but it's effectively AP0 to AP-5.

 

 

 

 

Are we talking about the same rule ? Because i got different maths than you :

 

Wound per hit (Vanilla)

 

AP0 = 2+ == 0.17

AP1 = 3+ == 0.33

AP2 = 4+ == 0.50

AP3 = 5++ = 0.67

AP4 = 5++ = 0.67

AP5 = 5++ = 0.67

 

 

Wound per hit (AP negate roll)

 

AP0 = 2+ ========== 0.17

AP1 = 2+ then 2+ or 3+ = 0.19

AP2 = 3+ then 2+ or 4+ = 0.39

AP3 = 4+ then 2+ or 5+ = 0.59

AP4 = 5+ then 2+ or 5+ = 0.61

AP5 = 6+ then 2+ or 5+ = 0.64

 

So the modified rule doesn't affect saturation (AP0) but it's very effective against AP1 & 2 while not very effective against AP3+ that already force to use the Invulnerable Save.

Coupled with T5 it would make Terminators more resilient without going overboard.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Elijah

[jaxom]

I calculated chance to make a save (already hit and wounded) using:

 

p=(not overcome AP probability*modified save probability)+(overcome AP probability*normal save probability)

 

It's possible I made an input error. I was pretty tired when I did it. I'm away from the original file, but I did a quick check and:

 

AP0  p = (5/6)*100                               = 83%

AP-1 p = ((1/6)*(4/6))+((5/6)*(5/6))*100 = 81%

AP-2 p = ((2/6)*(3/6))+((4/6)*(5/6))*100 = 72%

AP-3 p = =((3/6)*(2/6))+((3/6)*(5/6))*100 = 58%

AP-4 p = ((4/6)*(2/6))+((2/6)*(5/6))*100 = 50%

AP-5 p = ((5/6)*(2/6))+((1/6)*(5/6))*100 =42%

 

The complementary to chance to wound (matching the previous format for direct comparison):

AP0 = 2+ =========   = 0.17

 

AP1 = 2+ then 2+ or 3+ = 0.19

 

AP2 = 3+ then 2+ or 4+ = 0.28

 

AP3 = 4+ then 2+ or 5+ = 0.42

 

AP4 = 5+ then 2+ or 5+ = 0.50

 

AP5 = 6+ then 2+ or 5+ = 0.58

[Chaplain Elijah]

I calculated chance to make a save (already hit and wounded) using:

 

p=(not overcome AP probability*modified save probability)+(overcome AP probability*normal save probability)

 

It's possible I made an input error. I was pretty tired when I did it. I'm away from the original file, but I did a quick check and:

 

AP0  p = (5/6)*100                               = 83%

AP-1 p = ((1/6)*(4/6))+((5/6)*(5/6))*100 = 81%

AP-2 p = ((2/6)*(3/6))+((4/6)*(5/6))*100 = 72%

AP-3 p = =((3/6)*(2/6))+((3/6)*(5/6))*100 = 58%

AP-4 p = ((4/6)*(2/6))+((2/6)*(5/6))*100 = 50%

AP-5 p = ((5/6)*(2/6))+((1/6)*(5/6))*100 =42%

 

The complementary to chance to wound (matching the previous format for direct comparison):

AP0 = 2+ =========   = 0.17

 

AP1 = 2+ then 2+ or 3+ = 0.19

 

AP2 = 3+ then 2+ or 4+ = 0.28

 

AP3 = 4+ then 2+ or 5+ = 0.42

 

AP4 = 5+ then 2+ or 5+ = 0.50

 

AP5 = 6+ then 2+ or 5+ = 0.58

 

Thanks !

Looking at it now you got it right, i shouldn't try to do probabilities at lunch time

 

 

Anyway, compared to the vanilla, that modified rule seems a tad too strong...

 

 

It's not like the 5++ on a 2+ armour does a whole lot these days anyway.

Ravenwing Bikers advancing are 2W T5 3+/4++ and they drop quite easily.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Elijah

[Panzer]

 

It's not like the 5++ on a 2+ armour does a whole lot these days anyway.

Ravenwing Bikers advancing are 2W T5 3+/4++ and they drop quite easily.

 

 

That's something completely different. With a 2+ armour it requires AP-4 or better for the 5+ invul to kick in. With a 3+ armour it requires only AP-2 for a 5+ invul to kick in or AP-1 for the 4+ invul in your example. The point is that AP-4 is not THAT common. Most weapons go only up to AP-3.

[Chaplain Elijah]

 

 

It's not like the 5++ on a 2+ armour does a whole lot these days anyway.

Ravenwing Bikers advancing are 2W T5 3+/4++ and they drop quite easily.

 

 

That's something completely different. With a 2+ armour it requires AP-4 or better for the 5+ invul to kick in. With a 3+ armour it requires only AP-2 for a 5+ invul to kick in or AP-1 for the 4+ invul in your example. The point is that AP-4 is not THAT common. Most weapons go only up to AP-3.

 

 

 

I wasn't trying to counter your point but if had to : Devastators are AP-4 T1 and Hellblaster are AP-5 T2.

Armor is easily bypassed these days.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Elijah

[Panzer]

 

 

 

It's not like the 5++ on a 2+ armour does a whole lot these days anyway.

Ravenwing Bikers advancing are 2W T5 3+/4++ and they drop quite easily.

 

 

That's something completely different. With a 2+ armour it requires AP-4 or better for the 5+ invul to kick in. With a 3+ armour it requires only AP-2 for a 5+ invul to kick in or AP-1 for the 4+ invul in your example. The point is that AP-4 is not THAT common. Most weapons go only up to AP-3.

 

 

 

I wasn't trying to counter your point but if had to : Devastators are AP-4 T1 and Hellblaster are AP-5 T2.

Armor is easily bypassed these days.

 

 

I'd argue what your Terminators are doing on the board turn 1 though and Hellblasters should be long dead by the time you drop your Terminators anyway.

[Chaplain Elijah]

 

 

Games Workshop France

Good morning,

Thank you for your email and for taking the time to provide such detailed feedback regarding Terminators in the current rules edition.

I have taken the liberty of passing this on to our rules team to look into. Whilst I cannot promise a direct reply or any changes, I can assure you that this will be looked into.

Please do not hesitate to let us know if we can be of any further assistance.
Kind regards,

Hanna

 

 

Do not know if it's going to go all the way in but it was worth a try i guess.

[Panzer]

Don't get your hopes up. That's just the usual response and I'm sure they are aware that nobody uses Terminators seriously. ^^

[Chaplain Elijah]

Don't get your hopes up. That's just the usual response and I'm sure they are aware that nobody uses Terminators seriously. ^^

 

Oh i don't have high hopes no, but sometime in dire times a desperate act can have unforeseen consequences so who knows ? :)

[battle captain corpus]

Don't get your hopes up. That's just the usual response and I'm sure they are aware that nobody uses Terminators seriously. ^^

 

I use Terminators seriously. Why would'nt I? They have a great armour save, excellent weapons choices, can deep strike and are excellent counter attack units.

 

Plus they look rad.

 

BCC

[TheTrans]

Maybe let anyone in terminator armour in stead of shooting teleport D6 (ignoring all the reserves rules). On the roll of a 1 the unit doesn't move and cops a mortal wound? 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

Don't get your hopes up. That's just the usual response and I'm sure they are aware that nobody uses Terminators seriously. ^^

 

I use Terminators seriously. Why would'nt I? They have a great armour save, excellent weapons choices, can deep strike and are excellent counter attack units.

 

Plus they look rad.

 

BCC

They are great indeed. They are a staple unit for me.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Jarl Caldersson
Please be courteous to others with differing opinions.

[Panzer]

 

Don't get your hopes up. That's just the usual response and I'm sure they are aware that nobody uses Terminators seriously. ^^

 

I use Terminators seriously. Why would'nt I? They have a great armour save, excellent weapons choices, can deep strike and are excellent counter attack units.

 

Plus they look rad.

 

BCC

 

 

You know what I mean. You should be aware that you are clearly in the minority in this case.

[Chaplain Elijah]

They are great indeed. They are a staple unit for me.

You said that multiple times already.

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Jarl Caldersson
removed quoted reply to a removed comment.

[Jarl Caldersson]

Try to be civil with others of differing opinions, differing gaming groups have different meta and peoples experience may vary.

[Chaplain Elijah]

Here's a bit of fluff :

 

<< Terminator Armour is worn in very specific circumstances, such as when the close corridors of a hive city or Space Hulk need to be cleared.
Astartes wearing normal Power Armour would not be ideal in such a role; instead, they would form a cordon around the Terminators while they carried out their search-and-destroy mission. In the present time, the 41st Millennium, Terminator Armour has become so rare that its use is reserved for those times when it will provide the maximal tactical benefit.

Terminators are best used during starship boarding actions where the cramped conditions and tight starship corridors maximise the effects of a Terminator's superior firepower while downplaying his lack of maneuverability, as the environment means flanking attacks are unlikely. >>


<< Meanwhile, threat detectors and motion sensors aid the Space Marine in avoiding enemy weapon emplacements and other situational dangers. In addition, the suit is fully equipped with a range of auto-senses and targeters, allowing the tracking of targets with the utmost accuracy. Terminators are linked to each other with pict-display units, allowing the Space Marines to see what their brother warriors see. All suits are capable of this, but to avoid confusion, it is usual for only the Sergeant's armour to broadcast pict-signals. >>

 

With the idea to reward the player to play several Terminator models/units here is a rule based on their ability to fight in close formation :

 

Terminator Warfare
If the unit is composed of a least 3 TERMINATOR models or if a TERMINATOR character is within 3'' of a TERMINATOR model, add +1 to it's To Hit roll.
Additionnally, any INFANTRY unit within 3'' of a unit with at least 3 TERMINATOR models benefit from the Cover rule.

 

Such rule would make Power Fist a viable option again (hitting on 4+ is not) or make the use of Heavy Weapons less cumbersome (Terminators are supposed to operate Heavy Weapons with little efforts) while encouraging the players to deploy several units of Terminators. The "infantry is in cover when being next to 3+ Terminators" part would open whole new possibilities of list (Terminators themselves are most of the time not in cover so playing 2 units of Terminators next to each others would be rewarded nicely).

[Beta galactosidase]

From totally out of left field I love that. I hate all special rules if a model has more than one and I want everything to be a number on the profile instead of a special rule.

 

This rule is really important though because it comes from the background you posted and more importantly because terminators are supposed to work as units, and those are supposed to be small unit. They’re five marines, a full company is twenty squads of five. If the rule is that there are 3-5 of them and they’re tightly integrated with each other then that’s great I’ll take it.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There is one point strat for terminators granting +1 WS. Use it.

[jaxom]

If it comes down to special unit rules as inherent versus stratagems then we might want to start a new thread for that topic.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This is eighth edition and how the game works now so best to embrace it. GW is not going to revise the unit rules for terminators any time soon and tbh imo I don’t think it’s necessary either. I use them regularly and they always perform well for me.

[jaxom]

Yeah, I think the fluff can lead people astray in how they approach using terminators and in creating overly-large expectations. I'm just going to leave this link here for convenience's sake (and thank you, BBF, for writing it up and fielding questions):

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/360205-cataprachii-terminator-tactica/

 

EDIT: I’ll have time to add some of my own thoughts in a bit.

Edited December 18, 2019 by jaxom

[Chaplain Elijah]

From totally out of left field I love that. I hate all special rules if a model has more than one and I want everything to be a number on the profile instead of a special rule.

 

This rule is really important though because it comes from the background you posted and more importantly because terminators are supposed to work as units, and those are supposed to be small unit. They’re five marines, a full company is twenty squads of five. If the rule is that there are 3-5 of them and they’re tightly integrated with each other then that’s great I’ll take it.

 

Thanks. Though i think the rule could be reworded to works as the fluff intended :

 

 

Terminator Warfare

If the unit is composed of a least 3 TERMINATOR models or if the TERMINATOR character is within 3'' of a TERMINATOR model, you ignore any penalties To Hit.

If the unit is composed of a least 3 TERMINATOR models any INFANTRY unit within 3'' benefit from the Cover rule.

 

 

So Terminators always hitting on 3+ (or better), no matter what they use or against who they use it.

Also Terminators potentially in Cover.

 

 

There is one point strat for terminators granting +1 WS. Use it.

 

You mean that stratagem i don't have access to ? Ok.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s in the SM codex. SW don’t need it. Deathwing Knights are pretty good imo too. Edited December 18, 2019 by Black Blow Fly

[Volt]

This is eighth edition and how the game works now so best to embrace it. GW is not going to revise the unit rules for terminators any time soon and tbh imo I don’t think it’s necessary either. I use them regularly and they always perform well for me.

This isn't very valuable considering you don't seem to be exactly playing against lists that are that good, considering you actually win using Terminators in the first place. Chainfists/Powerfists aren't even that good, and by finagling around with different FOCs you can at this point just spam HQ's for a cheap melee punch. Or simply spam more Intercessors with auto bolters, which ultimately are more effective at shooting than Terminators for their points.