Did Primaris gene-seed restore lost organs to Chapters?

[Beta Helix]

Hello, I'm a bit new to all the 8th edition lore. I was just curious, Carl used the original genetic template to create the Primaris, and this knowledge was passed on to existing Chapters, and many of course continue to use standard Astartes. Did this knowledge allow Chapters like the Imperial Fists who had lost some organs (the Betcher's gland and I think the one that puts a marine in stasis?) to once again crate non-Primaris marines with all the original implants they had lost? Do marines feom such Chapters who 'cross the Rubicon' gain them along with the new Primaris organs?

 

As I said, I'm new to alot of the new lore but I was confused over this, and appreciate any insight :)

[Gederas]

Hello, I'm a bit new to all the 8th edition lore. I was just curious, Carl used the original genetic template to create the Primaris, and this knowledge was passed on to existing Chapters, and many of course continue to use standard Astartes. Did this knowledge allow Chapters like the Imperial Fists who had lost some organs (the Betcher's gland and I think the one that puts a marine in stasis?) to once again crate non-Primaris marines with all the original implants they had lost? Do marines feom such Chapters who 'cross the Rubicon' gain them along with the new Primaris organs?

 

As I said, I'm new to alot of the new lore but I was confused over this, and appreciate any insight

From what I can tell, yes and yes.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I believe "crossing the Rubicon" only implants the new organs, it doesn't create the others, at least by standard. I could assume that any Marines being operated on could "simply" have the other missing organs implanted at the same time, however. Newly created Marines, and the initial batch created by Cawl, are stated to have had their genetic issues fixed, so any damaged organs will have been repaired. 

[Elzender]

While I am not up to date in the lore at all, I would guess that any marine, primaris or not, created with the "pure" or "restored" geneseed provided by Cawl will have all organs completely functional. However, we must take into account a few aspects:

 

- How did Cawl get access to this geneseed: did he repair current stock from the thites sent to Mars/Terra using the original templates? Did he just get hold of geneseed harking back from the Great Crusade/Heresy era, when the degradation levels was much lower? Did he just create new geneseed from scratch using the templates? (This is likely answered in more or less detail in some book or codex, as I said I am not up to date at all with 8th edition lore ).

 

- If Cawl has the knowledge/technology to restore degraded geneseed to its original state, is it feasible to instruct apothecaries in the chapters to replicate it or to give them such technology? Seeing how Corbulo has been always described as struggling to find a cure for the Red Thirst and the Black Rage (then again, the first one is implied/stated to be part of the original design, and the latter is not so much a genetic defect as the psychic backlash of Sanguinius' death), maybe chapters don't have the resources or knowledge to implement such technology?

 

- How much "pure" geneseed did Cawl/Guilliman hand to the shapters, other than the amount present in the primaris marines? It is possible that there was no spare geneseed to give, or that it was mostly reserved to First Foundation or renowned chapters, while more obscure ones simply got a few primaris and the technology/knowledge to create more of them.

 

 

 

As for the "rubicon" primaris, I guess it will depend on the defective organs. I am not completely sure if it has been stated, but since the implementation of the different organs usually follows a specific order (although I think some chapters change it or adapt it to their necessities, Blood Angels come to mind), it is possible implementing certain organs in a fully developed marine is not possible.  Even if it happens to be possible, some apothecaries might refuse to do it due to fear of unforeseen consequences/increased risk of killing the marine/sacred rituals and beliefs stablished by the chapter regarding organ implementation. Then again, since most cases of lost/degraded organs are secondary to the basic marine physiology (as in, they are not essential for a human to become a space marine, such as the black carapace), it should not be that difficult to just replace the old, degenerated version with the restored one, or just implement any lacking one.

 

- What is the view of the chapters regarding geneseed storage and use? Will they prefer to use fresh geneseed only on primaris, due to them being unsure whether older geneseed might be incompatible or give rise to unexpected problems with the primaris creation process? Will they refuse to use old and revered geneseed on primaris, as they consider that they must first demonstrate their worth before being able to share the glorious genetic legacy of the chapter? Will they just not care and store them indistinctly, leading to new firstborn/classic marines carrying geneseed previously belonging to a primaris marine, and viceversa?

Edited December 16, 2019 by Elzender

[Sawtooth]

Cawl used the Sangprimus Portum, an artifact containing the original genetic material of all the Primarchs, so about as pure as possible. I'd assume using this source material he could create intact geneseed for any Chapter with damaged or missing material. Many implants like the Betcher's Gland are inserted later in the process and probably could be implanted in an existing Astartes. The other organs that are implanted earlier that affect bone growth and hormones would be a tougher feat.

As for crossing the Rubicon, I think it's possible to totally restore every organ. Since Primaris are larger and have even more potent metabolisms, the early developmental organs are probably used in some way to help growth and could probably be repaired at that time. The process on Calgar is described as extreme, opening his entire body for multiple invasive procedures....and he was clinically dead for a time. Given the extreme change in physiology involved, I'd say that anyone crossing the Rubicon could indeed get missing organs added.

If this is an angle on a custom Chapter I'd say go with it, I use it on mine. Black Carapace and Progenoids starting to fail, the Chapter on the chopping block about to be decomissioned, then their prayers are answered by the Emperor :)

[Subtleknife]

Yes, I cant remember which book but it mentioned that he restored function of the organs etc for those chapters that lost them.

[Marshal van Trapp]

Well its evident that he didnt fix everything because the BA still suffer from the Red Thirst and Black Rage no?

[Lord_Caerolion]

He fixed everything that wasn't part of the Emperors initial plan, and the Blood Angels always had the Red Thirst (a cultural renaming of an existing side-effect of the intentionally overactive Neuroglottis), and the Black Rage is psychic in nature, so no genetic tinkering will really fix it.

 

Things like the Imperial Fists lacking the Betchers Gland and Sus-An Membrane are due to degrading genestock over time, rather than an intentional difference, and as such were fixed by Cawl.

[Marshal van Trapp]

The red thirst was intentional? Huh TIL, and yeah that makes sense that the Black Rage isnt a genetic defect persay

[Lord_Caerolion]

The Thirst wasn't intentional, but the thing that caused it was. It was just a side-effect.

 

Back before the Primarch was found, the IX was known as the Revenant Legion, as that particular geneseed strain was known for being able to be implanted in aspirants far outside the acceptable criteria for other gene lines, and they had a far more powerful neuroglottis than other gene lines, so the Legion developed a reputation for being a "fire and forget" Legion, that would be inserted into the absolute worst warzones with no support, with the Legionaries not needing any training as they would consume their own dead, and absorb their memories. Their command structure also became known as the Immortals for a similar reason, as when a commander died they would be consumed by their second-in-command, who would then gain the memory and personality of the deceased commander, and take on their name, and so the commander essentially didn't die, at least to those outside the Legion.

 

The downside of this was that the experience was somewhat addictive, from memory, so there were some amongst the Revenant Legion who would consume the dead mid-battle, or become obsessed with drinking the blood of the fallen, as a kind of proto-Red Thirst. They were... a bit gruesome, to say the least.

 

EDIT: And yeah, the Black Rage is basically the psychic death-scream of Sanguinius echoing through to his sons. Genetors have tried to fix it before, what with the Lamenters and Knights of Blood, but each time it's proven unsuccessful. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Lord_Caerolion

[Dracos]

I’m not sold on the Black Rage not having a genetic component. Simply because for new recruits and especially the genetically “cleansed” Primaris to be able to be to hear that psychic scream through different generations means there is a physiological component to the Black Rage.

 

That said I’m a horrible 40k historian seeing as I was out of the game after the first dozen HH books came out and still slightly miffed at the ret-conning of a lot of RT and 2nd edition “history” ;)

Edited December 19, 2019 by Dracos

[Bryan Blaire]

What book (and where in it) is the information on the over-active neuroglottis for the BA from? It’s a really interesting factoid for background and I’d love to read the text on it and what all might be known about that.

 

As far as opening the aspirant up to the Black Rage, my understanding was that the connection is established by having the blood and gene-seed of Sanguinius within them. I’ve always had the impression that it’s not so much a psychic scream, more of a residual psychic impression of the final battle of the Primarch.

[The Unseen]

The stuff about the original 9th legion stuff of the commanding officers living on through their subordinates eating their brains is in Malevolence, the black book.

It's why they were dubbed the Revanent legion, before Sanguinius was found and set them on a different path

Edited December 19, 2019 by The Unseen

[Bryan Blaire]

Ah, cool, thanks Unseen! Didn't know if it was from a latter HH book I hadn't read yet, an Index Astartes for the BA from a long while ago, or one of the HH game rule books. Awesome stuff!

[Panzer]

The Black Rage is basically a blood curse. A supernatural phenomenon that is active and targets everyone of that bloodline. The blood itself isn't special itself, it's just that it's the target of the supernatural phenomenon. Since it itself isn't special it's not something that could be 'cured' like other genetic flaws.

[RandyB]

The Black Rage is basically a blood curse. A supernatural phenomenon that is active and targets everyone of that bloodline. The blood itself isn't special itself, it's just that it's the target of the supernatural phenomenon. Since it itself isn't special it's not something that could be 'cured' like other genetic flaws.

Agreed.

 

This is a critical point. WH40K is not a materialist setting. The supernatural is real, and inextricably intertwined with the physical.

[jaxom]

To quote myself from a previous, similar thread:

 

 

Key point: Cawl started with fresh gene-seed, not stable gene-seed. The Primaris gene-seed is the same for the various lineages except without 10,000 years of degeneration. This is why he was able to fix the Imperial Fist gene-seed (they lost organs due to gene-seed degeneration over time), but why the Canis Helix and Red Thirst are still present. In the case of the Blood Angels, the Red Thirst was exacerbated over time so Primaris have a "longer fuse," but can still explode.

 

There's no single source which describes the full details of what Cawl did and what is available, but here's what can be gathered from bringing together individual sources. 

 

1. Cawl had access to Primarch genetic information and created two new space marine organs from that information (maybe three, but it is unclear if the sinew coils are grown or if they are fabricated, they listed as organs though).
2. Cawl was using Great Crusade/Heresy-era gene-seed in his experiments. Such gene-seed lacked any degradation over time effects.
3. Cawl used the same vat-clone culturing techniques to create more gene-seed that are used when conducting a new Founding.
4. Primaris progenoids includes the genetic information/precursors for creating all organs necessary to make a primaris marine.
5. The Rubicon Primaris requires Primaris organs from a donor (most likely meant to be a vat-clone, but Spear of the Emperor has a case where a deceased Primaris marine is the donor). The Rubicon Primaris does not alter the progenoid gland.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Just to clarify on point 5, the Rubicon doesn't directly alter the Progenoid, but the gland does absorb genetic information from the implantee that it uses to create the zygotes for the next batch of organs to be created. Get a Firstborn Marine, have him cross the Rubicon, and any remaining Progenoid glands he has will have the genetic information to create the Primaris organs as well.

[jeremy1391]

Some chapters literally “downloaded” the templates to make Primaris marines. As seen with the emperor’s spears chapter

[Lord_Caerolion]

I believe they still received genetic samples, the "download" was basically just the instruction manual.