Running Flesh Tearers as vanilla. Thoughts?

[ixzion]

Hi!

 

I have a Flesh Tearers army because I like their paint scheme and the fluff is cool. Blood of Baal gave Blood Angels a nice push, but the rules for Flesh Tearers seems a bit lacking, especially after the FAQ. I am considering running my Flesh Tearers as regular Blood Angels instead. I'm not running Seth so I'm not restricted by that at least.

 

Would you object to that, or do you think that people in general would object? 

[Panzer]

In casual games there should be no problems. On tournaments better ask the TO beforehand. They might make an exception for Flesh Tearers.

[ixzion]

It’s such a missed opportunity :( I’m not a super competitive player, but I would rather not shoot myself in the foot if I don’t have to.

[Aothaine]

In most tournaments you're going to have problems running them as vanilla. Mainly because GW mentioned "known successors" in their rules. I'm with you on the Flesh Tearers looking awesome btw. You might want to just make your own chapter with the color scheme. There is nothing that says you can't have the same color scheme and just change the icon. BAM! You're own successor chapter that you can legally use with any rule set.

[ixzion]

It's a little late to change the icon when i have already put them on all my shoulder pads 

 

I guess I will stick to my guns then. Any ideas on how to make Flesh Tearers work? 

[Aothaine]

Any ideas on how to make Flesh Tearers work? 

 

 

Run two Smash Captains. The first with the relic BA jump pack allowing you to ignore over watch. The second with the Warlord trait Cretacian Born allowing you to ignore over watch, possibly make this one a primaris and stick him in an impulsor with three units of Primaris Death Company (5/5/5). Take a primaris apothecary and give him Sorrow's Genesis. Grab a primaris chaplain. Still all three primaris HQs into the Impulsors with the Primaris Death Company.

 

So you want two elements to this army. Two waves. First wave disembarks the Impulsors on T1 and fires, T2 fires and charges. T3 the second element comes in. The second element you want to deepstrike in and perform mop-up. 

 

So the core of the list should be something like this...

 

[HQ] Primaris Chaplain 

[HQ] Primaris Captain or Librarian Dreadnought (WL Trait: Cretacian Born)

[HQ] Smash Captain (JP Relic & Thunder Hammer)

[E] Primaris Apothecary (Relic: Sorrow's Genesis)

[T] Primaris Death Company (5-man/ 5-man if you run with the Libby Dread) in Impulsor with 5++

[T] Primaris Death Company (5-man) in Impulsor with 5++

[T] Primaris Death Company (5-man) in Impulsor with 5++

 

Fill in the rest of the list as you see fit. Have the Smash Captain show up in T3 with some other nasties to do clean up. Maybe a MSU unit of Sang guard with ancient? 

 

The key is making use of the two no-overwatch abilities and the apothecary relic.

[Panzer]

I honestly don't think Flesh Tearers would or even should be build differently compared to regular Blood Angels. The better AP on 6s is too unreliable and small of a benefit to build around and doesn't even exist once you get into the Assault Doctrine anyway.

They are still the same army but worse because they lack the +1 to charges which makes charges out of deep strike a lot less reliable, no named characters and only one relic. And that's where I'd see the only big difference I'd make when building a list.

While Blood Angels can take Astorath and have him buff a shooty unit and then jump to our melee units to support them or even turn himself into a beatstick, Flesh Tearers don't have that option. However they absolutely NEED to take a Jump Pack Chaplain to help their melee units get into melee since they don't get the native +1 to charges. Activate the +2 to charges litany, drop your deep striking units, re-deploy the Chaplain via Stratagem so they are in range of the litany (because this one is actually an aura effect), enjoy easy 7" charges.

Also since Flesh Tearers can't take Mephiston the question whether you should take Mephiston, the Librarian Dread or perhaps both doesn't apply to you. Just take the Librarian Dread.

 

 

 

Any ideas on how to make Flesh Tearers work? 

 

 

Run two Smash Captains. The first with the relic BA jump pack allowing you to ignore over watch. The second with the Warlord trait Cretacian Born allowing you to ignore over watch, possibly make this one a primaris and stick him in an impulsor with three units of Primaris Death Company (5/5/5). Take a primaris apothecary and give him Sorrow's Genesis. Grab a primaris chaplain. Still all three primaris HQs into the Impulsors with the Primaris Death Company.

 

So you want two elements to this army. Two waves. First wave disembarks the Impulsors on T1 and fires, T2 fires and charges. T3 the second element comes in. The second element you want to deepstrike in and perform mop-up. 

 

So the core of the list should be something like this...

 

[HQ] Primaris Chaplain 

[HQ] Primaris Captain or Librarian Dreadnought (WL Trait: Cretacian Born)

[HQ] Smash Captain (JP Relic & Thunder Hammer)

[E] Primaris Apothecary (Relic: Sorrow's Genesis)

[T] Primaris Death Company (5-man/ 5-man if you run with the Libby Dread) in Impulsor with 5++

[T] Primaris Death Company (5-man) in Impulsor with 5++

[T] Primaris Death Company (5-man) in Impulsor with 5++

 

Fill in the rest of the list as you see fit. Have the Smash Captain show up in T3 with some other nasties to do clean up. Maybe a MSU unit of Sang guard with ancient? 

 

The key is making use of the two no-overwatch abilities and the apothecary relic.

 

 

Sorry to burst that bubble, but Flesh Tearers (same as other BA successor chapters) can take only one relic for now unfortunately.

You get the one you get for free and either you take a SIW or a Flesh Tearer Relic ... or instead take one from the Blood Angels armory via Honoured of Baal Stratagem (or take the crappy power sword for successor lol). Successor can't use the Armoury of Baal Stratagem thanks to this little passage in our Codex (highlighted by me):

The Stratagems listed here, with the exception of the Armoury of Baal, can also be used by any of the Blood Angels successor Chapters

 

 

So while the Flesh Tearers themselves have some nice relic options there and the SIW are great too, if you can take only one definitely always go with either the Angel's Wing or the Standard of Sacrifice relic.

 

On the bright side, Impulsors have a 4++, not a 5++. :P

[Aothaine]

 

Sorry to burst that bubble, but Flesh Tearers (same as other BA successor chapters) can take only one relic for now unfortunately.

You get the one you get for free and either you take a SIW or a Flesh Tearer Relic ... or instead take one from the Blood Angels armory via Honoured of Baal Stratagem (or take the crappy power sword for successor lol). Successor can't use the Armoury of Baal Stratagem thanks to this little passage in our Codex (highlighted by me):

 

 

Wow ... I really like this new GW but how did they miss this? Maybe it will get fixed on the BA 2.0 dex that should be out later this year maybe?

[t-dog1996]

I've found that the Flesh Tearers work best as an allied detachment in a larger Blood Angels army. With the Flesh Tearers warlord traits and relics you can put together some truly brutal character combos. I've been running a captain with the Severer of Threads and the Of Wrath and Rage warlord trait. He killed 40 Necrons in a game today. I'm not sure I'd run a pure Flesh Tearers army but they work great as a support element for your Blood Angels.

Edited January 23, 2020 by t-dog1996

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

 

Sorry to burst that bubble, but Flesh Tearers (same as other BA successor chapters) can take only one relic for now unfortunately.

You get the one you get for free and either you take a SIW or a Flesh Tearer Relic ... or instead take one from the Blood Angels armory via Honoured of Baal Stratagem (or take the crappy power sword for successor lol). Successor can't use the Armoury of Baal Stratagem thanks to this little passage in our Codex (highlighted by me):

 

 

Wow ... I really like this new GW but how did they miss this? Maybe it will get fixed on the BA 2.0 dex that should be out later this year maybe?

 

 

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment"

 

Paint for the pleasure of the eyes, Play for the pleasure of the mind.

[t-dog1996]

 

 

Sorry to burst that bubble, but Flesh Tearers (same as other BA successor chapters) can take only one relic for now unfortunately.

You get the one you get for free and either you take a SIW or a Flesh Tearer Relic ... or instead take one from the Blood Angels armory via Honoured of Baal Stratagem (or take the crappy power sword for successor lol). Successor can't use the Armoury of Baal Stratagem thanks to this little passage in our Codex (highlighted by me):

 

 

Wow ... I really like this new GW but how did they miss this? Maybe it will get fixed on the BA 2.0 dex that should be out later this year maybe?

 

 

I wouldn't hold your breath for a BA codex 2.0. My guess is that they will continue with psychic awakening until every army has been done, then we'll get 9th edition. I highly doubt that it will change anything major, more just consolidating the various FAQs and rules updates from chapter approved into the main rulebook. Really more of an 8.5, with all existing codices and supplements remaining valid. Given that 8th edition is approaching its 3rd birthday now I'd say we're due an edition update.

[dice4thedicegod]

I've found that the Flesh Tearers work best as an allied detachment in a larger Blood Angels army. With the Flesh Tearers warlord traits and relics you can put together some truly brutal character combos. I've been running a captain with the Severer of Threads and the Of Wrath and Rage warlord trait. He killed 40 Necrons in a game today. I'm not sure I'd run a pure Flesh Tearers army but they work great as a support element for your Blood Angels.

Don’t you miss out on savage echoes (+1 attack in assault doctrine) because you’re not “pure” BA or FT?

[Panzer]

 

I've found that the Flesh Tearers work best as an allied detachment in a larger Blood Angels army. With the Flesh Tearers warlord traits and relics you can put together some truly brutal character combos. I've been running a captain with the Severer of Threads and the Of Wrath and Rage warlord trait. He killed 40 Necrons in a game today. I'm not sure I'd run a pure Flesh Tearers army but they work great as a support element for your Blood Angels.

Don’t you miss out on savage echoes (+1 attack in assault doctrine) because you’re not “pure” BA or FT?

 

 

Yes you do. Souping BA with FT is not worth it imo.

[ixzion]

Oh man that royally sucks. I was warming to the idea of running Flesh Tearers, but if I only can take a single relic then that’s really unfortunate. I assume that I would not be able to take a relic and special issue wargear either?

[Dosjetka]

It’s such a missed opportunity I’m not a super competitive player, but I would rather not shoot myself in the foot if I don’t have to.

Personally, I'd say that using the current Flesh Tearers rules as they are is hardly "shooting yourself in the foot". Unless you play competitively, you can no doubt still do reasonably well with your Flesh Tearers in a more laid-back setting.

[Panzer]

Oh man that royally sucks. I was warming to the idea of running Flesh Tearers, but if I only can take a single relic then that’s really unfortunate. I assume that I would not be able to take a relic and special issue wargear either?

 

Yeah SIW take the place of Relics. They are an alternative choice, not an additional one.

[Aothaine]

It is a really strange thing that GW seemed to be trying to promote using known successors and then did this to Flesh Tearers. Ahh well it will most likely be corrected in time or Flesh Tearers will be phased out. Shame really.

 

Edit: Looks like Dark Angels successors had similar treatment. Maybe GW really is trying to push people away from known successors into making their own chapters or using one of the original legion chapters.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Aothaine

[Panzer]

I doubt there's any malice or even actual intention to be found here. They simply didn't bother updating all the old stuff that's in the Codex because if they did they could have just as well sold us a whole new Codex instead. Be patient.

[Aothaine]

Be patient.

 

This is what I preach. Just have to wait for the 2.0 codex. :D

[Xenith]

I'll be painting as FT but using BA rules until they errata that FT trait stacks with assault doctrine, or is a flat -1ap on all melee weapons, no trigger on 6.

 

+1 to charge is an order of magnitude more powerful.

Edited February 1, 2020 by Xenith

[appiah4]

"Be patient" is such bull:cuss in this hobby.  It's 2020, rules should not take years let alone months to be updated to a workable equalibrium.  If anything they should be readily available and free as an updated living book instead of archaic tomes that see miniscule non-updates every once in a while.

 

Here's how Warhammer works in 2020: You wait for years for an updated codex and then a sister codex has an update only months later in a completely different design philosophy (I'm looking at you BA 7e Codex) and you are expected to bend over and accept not only the price cost but also the waiting period not once but multiple times a year.

 

Sorry but, that.

 

Your game is bloated and unbalanced as all hell, GW.  I was here for the fluff and models, but now your fluff is also amazingly terribad, so aside from the odd model I am interested enough to shell out 40 bucks for a multipart single pose model that would have cost a quarter of that a decade ago, I wash my hands off of your game.

 

Also, if people are wondering why I am blurting out this rant all of a sudden here, it's because the whole 'Your FT can't be Vanilla' stand they have taken is an incredibly rude and anti-consumer stance against their customers that flies in the face of their whole approach only a few editions ago when you could take whatever army and run with whatever rules using Counts-As.  The only reason you can not do that right now is their interest in selling overpriced models for specific armies - we all know how their business model works so I won't go into that discussion.

 

It is grating, it grinds my gears, boils my blood and makes me want to emtpy my display cabinet completely and fill it with another hobby like Lego, or the cheap and fun Reaper minis I've been having a blast painting lately.

 

To the OP: Play your FT the way you want to play and if they don't let you flip the table and get into another game.  Be a wise customer.

Edited February 4, 2020 by appiah5

[Aothaine]

"Be patient" is such bull:cuss in this hobby.  It's 2020, rules should not take years let alone months to be updated to a workable equalibrium.  If anything they should be readily available and free as an updated living book instead of archaic tomes that see miniscule non-updates every once in a while.

 

Here's how Warhammer works in 2020: You wait for years for an updated codex and then a sister codex has an update only months later in a completely different design philosophy (I'm looking at you BA 7e Codex) and you are expected to bend over and accept not only the price cost but also the waiting period not once but multiple times a year.

 

Sorry but, that.

 

Your game is bloated and unbalanced as all hell, GW.  I was here for the fluff and models, but now your fluff is also amazingly terribad, so aside from the odd model I am interested enough to shell out 40 bucks for a multipart single pose model that would have cost a quarter of that a decade ago, I wash my hands off of your game.

 

Also, if people are wondering why I am blurting out this rant all of a sudden here, it's because the whole 'Your FT can't be Vanilla' stand they have taken is an incredibly rude and anti-consumer stance against their customers that flies in the face of their whole approach only a few editions ago when you could take whatever army and run with whatever rules using Counts-As.  The only reason you can not do that right now is their interest in selling overpriced models for specific armies - we all know how their business model works so I won't go into that discussion.

 

It is grating, it grinds my gears, boils my blood and makes me want to emtpy my display cabinet completely and fill it with another hobby like Lego, or the cheap and fun Reaper minis I've been having a blast painting lately.

 

To the OP: Play your FT the way you want to play and if they don't let you flip the table and get into another game.  Be a wise customer.

 

So Warhammer fantasy does have the rules as free, for the most part. I think they are slowly moving the same way with 40k. Also, the op can play his army anyway he likes. But if going to competitions things get a little muffled. I was just wanting to warn the player before they invested hours of time into building an army only to find out they couldn't play it how they wanted in tournaments.

[tychobi]

I have been playing tournament warhammer since 1999. Around here there would be no issues as long as you cleared it with the TO ahead of time and was clear with your opponents. Any casual who gave you guff would not be worth playing. I feel sad that GW does not support painting and playing with their models in any way their customers want. Thankfully they abandoned tournament support long ago. Pray they keep their greedy mitts off ETC and ITC. RIP Warhammer Fantasy Battle.

[Xenith]

I have been playing tournament warhammer since 1999. Around here there would be no issues as long as you cleared it with the TO ahead of time and was clear with your opponents. Any casual who gave you guff would not be worth playing. I feel sad that GW does not support painting and playing with their models in any way their customers want. Thankfully they abandoned tournament support long ago. Pray they keep their greedy mitts off ETC and ITC. RIP Warhammer Fantasy Battle.

GW brought back tournament support and live streaming of games a few years ago, and has openly supported things like the LVO and Adepticon.

 

GWs only tournament rules regarding painting are the 3 colour minimum/battle ready. Their rules regarding models are WYSIWYG and no non-gw parts, all of which is fair.

 

You won't have an issue with anyone as long as you are explicit in telling people you use BA rules.

[Aothaine]

 

GW brought back tournament support and live streaming of games a few years ago, and has openly supported things like the LVO and Adepticon.

 

GWs only tournament rules regarding painting are the 3 colour minimum/battle ready. Their rules regarding models are WYSIWYG and no non-gw parts, all of which is fair.

 

You won't have an issue with anyone as long as you are explicit in telling people you use BA rules.

 

 

Maybe I'm just part of that strange crowed that rolls it's eyes when a dark angels army is dropped on the table and I'm told their using Ultramarines army. This might need to be a view I should change. Not everyone can afford to build every army and people are playing to have fun. Fair enough. I still think it is something to be aware of. There are WAAC players that will throw tantrums at competitive events over the smallest things. But in the end they are your little plastic toys. Do with them what you want! :D