Will the levi get nerfed in the new forgeworld book?

[MrZakalwe]

Hang on why punish other supplements because the iron hands ome makes it OP. That is a dangerous precedent to set and unfair on the other supplements.

 

It's also how they've done it in the past. 

 

All Space Marines were rubbish for a while to pay the price of G-Man full rerolls. Everything had to be costed with the possibility of being deployed in a blob with Bobby. 

[Kallas]

Its the fault of Forgeworld in that Forgeworld expands the options available and makes the game harder to balance. The Leviathan isn't over-powered because of the units rules as written but because there were various interacting buffs that the Leviathan just happened to fall closest to the intersection of.

Oh ok. So we shouldn't have gotten Primaris, Vigilus or Psychic Awakening either, because those are all adding additional options.

 

That's a pretty poor point to raise, especially considering that FW generally has very few actually usable units for regular sized games (ie, Thunderhawks et al don't really work in 2000pts).

 

Is it your opinion that Tarantula Sentry Guns are an additional option too far? Do they make the game so much harder to balance? What about Siege Dreadnoughts? Deredeos? Where's the line?

 

Is there are reason why FW is too much, in your opinion, but not other expansion of available units (eg, Primaris)?

[Ishagu]

A change of keyword can fix most of the problems.

[Gederas]

Its the fault of Forgeworld in that Forgeworld expands the options available and makes the game harder to balance. The Leviathan isn't over-powered because of the units rules as written but because there were various interacting buffs that the Leviathan just happened to fall closest to the intersection of.

Oh ok. So we shouldn't have gotten Primaris, Vigilus or Psychic Awakening either, because those are all adding additional options.

 

That's a pretty poor point to raise, especially considering that FW generally has very few actually usable units for regular sized games (ie, Thunderhawks et al don't really work in 2000pts).

 

Is it your opinion that Tarantula Sentry Guns are an additional option too far? Do they make the game so much harder to balance? What about Siege Dreadnoughts? Deredeos? Where's the line?

 

Is there are reason why FW is too much, in your opinion, but not other expansion of available units (eg, Primaris)?

I honestly think it's because the "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! FORGE WORLD OP!!! BANNED!11!!!!" viewpoint from previous editions hasn't died yet....

[Kallas]

I honestly think it's because the "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! FORGE WORLD OP!!! BANNED!11!!!!" viewpoint from previous editions hasn't died yet....

 

Yeah, I don't get it. I use Land Raider Helios quite a lot, because it's a solid gunboat and I love Land Raiders...but it's hardly OP because, at the end of the day, it's still just a Land Raider (and it only works because I am a UM Successor, so can Fall Back and shoot at -1, otherwise they just get Bad Touched into irrelevance!)

 

Ingrained Forge World hatred needs to be addressed, because it's stupid, and pointless.

[Subtleknife]

 

 

Hang on why punish other supplements because the iron hands ome makes it OP. That is a dangerous precedent to set and unfair on the other supplements.

It's also how they've done it in the past.

 

All Space Marines were rubbish for a while to pay the price of G-Man full rerolls. Everything had to be costed with the possibility of being deployed in a blob with Bobby.

That doenst mean it is the right way to do it. Fix the thing that is causing the problem (iron hand supplement etc). The leviathan is ok I believe in most of the other supplements. They made the same mistake with RG, they should have fixed him not nerfed the other units. Edited January 30, 2020 by Subtleknife

[Dracos]

I love (sarcasm) how some want to break this into an either/or argument. This is just one of those things that a couple thousand players discovered that a few dozen play testers did not. It’s inevitable these kind of things are going to happen. Be it the new hotness of the Thunder Cannon, Centurion or Leviathan ... or the earlier Ynarri, Smash Captain and Shadowsword (?). There’s always going to be groups like Team Happy looking for the next OP combo. It last for a minute and at least in this edition of 40k GW has responded in a fairly timely manner given production schedules and attempted to balance the offending unit or rule. Sometimes better than others but the honest attempt I’d there and repeated if needed.

 

It’s not IH and it’s not FW. It’s various factors in combination. I’m looking forward to GW rewriting the FW Indexes with hope than much of this is fixed in the near-ish future. I’d rather be optimistic about GW continuing to improve their product and practices. Along the way maybe we as a forum can find ways to constructively speak to the creator of our hobby in manner that will let them know our concerns when they aren’t addressed in a fair (to them and us) and timely (again them and us) fashion.

[Indefragable]

For what it's worth, this is a direct quote from the winner of the still-smoldering LVO final:  

 

 

Q. Is there anything that people are freaking out about right now that just isn't that big a deal?

I don’t think there is anything fundamentally broken about the stock Leviathan dreadnought.  It’s the combination of stratagems and Iron Hands rules that make it absurd.

From Goonhammer: "GOAT: An Interview with LVO and ITC Champion Richard Siegler"

For what it's worth, Richard seems like a pretty even keel guy that is less WAAC then some might think based on ITC's reputation. What I do find interesting is that Richard Siegler was a long time Tau player who, in his play testing leading up to LVO, determined that there was simply no way for him to beat Iron Hands with his Tau in the ITC format. Thus, he jumped ship and went the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" route. 

TL;DR: I think the issue is less the Leviathan itself and more the combinations of uneven Doctrines and buffs that can stack on one to make it ridiculous. But knowing GW, they'll nerf it for all players anyways. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

The Leviathan itself is not overpowered.

 

Iron Hands Leviathans are.

 

I play Raven Guard and very frequently run a twin grav flux Leviathan. It is quite easily nullified by just tar pitting it. It only has 3 attacks the way it is equipped, throw a big unit of something at it and it can't possibly kill the whole unit. Which means it's either out of the fight or I'm forced to spend 2 CP on a strat to let it fall back and shoot.

 

Don't confuse it being really strong for one Chapter with being overpowered as a unit.

 

Not going to quote it, but wanted to point out that Raven Guard don't get the -1 to hit on vehicles. It's no stronger for us than anyone else.

The stratagem is worth it's weight in gold though. Ya, raven guard can burn down the CP pretty fast, but saving a few for reactionary strats like transhuman and false flight is basic stuff. Being able to keep shooting output with key units like centurions and dreadnoughts is an extremely useful thing.

[Indefragable]

 

The Leviathan itself is not overpowered.

 

Iron Hands Leviathans are.

 

I play Raven Guard and very frequently run a twin grav flux Leviathan. It is quite easily nullified by just tar pitting it. It only has 3 attacks the way it is equipped, throw a big unit of something at it and it can't possibly kill the whole unit. Which means it's either out of the fight or I'm forced to spend 2 CP on a strat to let it fall back and shoot.

 

Don't confuse it being really strong for one Chapter with being overpowered as a unit.

 

Not going to quote it, but wanted to point out that Raven Guard don't get the -1 to hit on vehicles. It's no stronger for us than anyone else.

The stratagem is worth it's weight in gold though. Ya, raven guard can burn down the CP pretty fast, but saving a few for reactionary strats like transhuman and false flight is basic stuff. Being able to keep shooting output with key units like centurions and dreadnoughts is an extremely useful thing.

 

 

Part of my personal annoyance at GW rules-writing is their seemingly obliviousness to how people will exploit ideas meant to be fluffy. Like how in modern times RG go so heavy on Centurions and such, when most lore depictions and the mental imagery of most players is lightning claw vets and scout snipers. Like how in 7th ed the Ultimate Power in the Galaxy was White Scars Gravcannon Centurions....from a Chapter perhaps best well known for its dislike of claustrophobic armor like Terminator, Centurion, and Dreadnought carapaces. 

 

...that is by no means to say that factions should be one-note and boring and force people into certain builds (like all-bikes-all-the-time for White Scars), but I just find it part amusing, part frustrating that no matter what they do, fluff =/= crunch. Like if BA got rules that somehow gave them the best Hellblasters in the game and no BA brought melee units as a result. Is that bad? I dunno. Is it good? I would have to say it's definitely not good. 

[Ishagu]

As I've said before, the Leviathan just needs a keyword change.

 

Remove "Dreadnought" keyword and replace with "Heavy Dreadnought."

 

Voila. Problem solved, stratagem no longer interacts.

 

Alternatively simply remove the keyword entirely, same as what happened to the Whirlwind Scorpius.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[Happy-inquisitor]

The most obvious nerf is to remove access to duty eternal. The thing is already beefy with a high toughness value, armour and invul; it doesn't require any more help surviving.

 

It also fits the fluff as the occupants burn out fast and certainly aren't around eternally.

 

Take away the Dreadnought keyword and all will suddenly be good with the Leviathan. 

 

Fix the points costs on the weapons so the storm cannon array is not quite such a no-brainer autopick. Go right ahead and fix the number of attacks thing while you are there - I would love to see a few more of them kitted for CC.

[armarnis]

As I've said before, the Leviathan just needs a keyword change.

 

Remove "Dreadnought" keyword and replace with "Heavy Dreadnought."

 

Voila. Problem solved, stratagem no longer interacts.

 

Alternatively simply remove the keyword entirely, same as what happened to the Whirlwind Scorpius.

 

imho thats too easy an fix as it punishes ALL leviathans, even those that are played without a codex supplement. the ruleswrites just need to step up their work and think about how people might play certain things. grav centurions mentioned above are a good point for that.

 

duty eternal's cost could be stepped, 1 for normal dread & redemptor, 2 for contemptor and deredeo chassis and 3 (4?) for a leviathan would not be that difficult, same goes for the character strat for iron hands, leviathans need very strongwilled pilots hence the reference (i think its in the HH redbook fluff blurb) it needs a chaptermaster level pilot. it would still allow people to do it but make it cost so much it loses viability in (high) competitive play so that people can still have their toys (remember dawn of war 2 with the blood ravens captain resurrected as a dread! how awesome would it be to bring back a highranking officer in your campaign in such an outfit).

 

there is no easy way to fix the case but it would benefit everyone if the solution would avoid a heavy handed solution with a lawnmover

[Ishagu]

To be honest duty Eternal is probably too good on any T8 model with a 4++

 

All other Dreads are T7 with a 5++ at best

Edited January 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[SkimaskMohawk]

Duty eternal should honestly be 2 cp base, leviathan not allowed to use it. Half all incoming damage, in any phase, on vehicles that most often are benefiting from invuls and are otherwise being backed up by masters of the forge. A little too good for 1cp.

[Ishagu]

Duty eternal should honestly be 2 cp base, leviathan not allowed to use it. Half all incoming damage, in any phase, on vehicles that most often are benefiting from invuls and are otherwise being backed up by masters of the forge. A little too good for 1cp.

It's perfectly fine at 1CP. Most Dreads need help.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Most of them need help? Most of the ones that are outputting enough damage to be a priority have an invul save to help survive and then can half damage into a possible 3 wounds back. Chaplain dreads, mortis and relic contemptors, leviathans, deredeos and even redemptors can just soak up an excess of fire power mindlessly for 1cp.

 

Maybe transhuman should only cost 1cp since most marine infantry needs help?

[War Angel]

Most of them need help? Most of the ones that are outputting enough damage to be a priority have an invul save to help survive and then can half damage into a possible 3 wounds back. Chaplain dreads, mortis and relic contemptors, leviathans, deredeos and even redemptors can just soak up an excess of fire power mindlessly for 1cp.

Maybe transhuman should only cost 1cp since most marine infantry needs help?

Codex dreads dude.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Most of them need help? Most of the ones that are outputting enough damage to be a priority have an invul save to help survive and then can half damage into a possible 3 wounds back. Chaplain dreads, mortis and relic contemptors, leviathans, deredeos and even redemptors can just soak up an excess of fire power mindlessly for 1cp.

Maybe transhuman should only cost 1cp since most marine infantry needs help?

Codex dreads dude.

He didn't say that, dude.

[Ishagu]

Point is people shouldn't suggest broad changes that impact multiple things.

 

Suggesting the Strat gets nerfed hurts Redemptors and Box Dreads the most.

 

Individual units and rules can be adjusted in a more directed way.

[Prot]

I don't know why this debate is (at times) so heated.

 

It really doesn't matter what any one of us thinks. I guarantee you the Leviathan (and Chappy Dreads) will not go unscathed.

 

I've witnessed events where GW sees even a select few individuals enjoy immense success with one unit, and that unit gets put under the GW microscope, and typically, chopped at the knees.

 

I remember when Nick Nanivati beat a GW employee with a fairly pedestrian Cultist, and Poxwalker 'spam' army..... those units have never been the same. 

 

Another example.... I watched Geoff Robinson (RIP) take down a lot of very good players with a triple Caladius Custodes list combined with some key elements to win a well known tournament, and that was it for the Caladius. It's never been the same, after 2 adjustments yet. (I'll never forget this because I ordered my first one from Forgeworld just as Geoff did this, and thought 'great... it's over, and I haven't even received it yet!')

 

 

 

I can't personally remember seeing such an overwhelming representation of one or two models at an event like this (LVO) before. Every one of us here knows that Forgeworld is still the wild west. We all know it contains a lot of garbage, a lot of incorrectly pointed units, and some hidden (or not so hidden) gems. 

 

GW knows this too, but no one wants to wrestle with the wild west. She is an unruly beast and requires a LOT of attention to fix. We know GW announced they are turning their attention to the wild west, and it's going to be a very different world when it comes out the other end of the GW 'fixing machine'. 

 

At the end of the day I'm disappointed in GW. They started this edition by repeatedly drumming the notion that we are going to play the most balanced 40K ever. And for the most part they were doing really well. The last 3 months have been just crazy lopsided. (This is just me but it wreaks of gunning up financials for stock holders at end of quarter reports.)

 

When you have someone like Richard Siegler dumping his beloved, and immensely potent, Tau for the Iron Hands then you know something is incredibly off balance. (And btw that action pretty much defines playing to WIN... .I hate the term "WAAC".)

 

Sure most years we expect to see certain themes present in the 'meta', but this year? There was no guessing. The line was as divisive as ever.... mostly you fell into one of two groups: Playing the Leviathan/ Triple Chappy Dread, or playing to defeat it.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Prot

[TrawlingCleaner]

Pretty simple change IMO as others have suggested. Keep the strats as they are and include a keyword or change keywords so that the Forgeworld dreads CANNOT use the Dread keyword strats from any Suppliment. Change their keywords to Relic dreadnought or soemthing similar. As others have said, something with easy access to an invuln and ridiculous stats shouldn't be able to half damage let alone all of the other ridiuclous things you can do with IH.

 

Duty Eternal is not just a IH problem IMO, they just stack the buffs the best with their other strats. They clearly haven't balanced the codex with Forgeworld stuff in mind, so why not change it? If Leviathans, contemptors and gunboats lose access to strats, the meta may change to include other less looked at units which would be really cool to see and probably more healthy.

[War Angel]

 

 

Most of them need help? Most of the ones that are outputting enough damage to be a priority have an invul save to help survive and then can half damage into a possible 3 wounds back. Chaplain dreads, mortis and relic contemptors, leviathans, deredeos and even redemptors can just soak up an excess of fire power mindlessly for 1cp.

Maybe transhuman should only cost 1cp since most marine infantry needs help?

Codex dreads dude.

He didn't say that, dude.

 

Well it’s what he was referring to. None of the codex dreads have the things you mentioned.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

Most of them need help? Most of the ones that are outputting enough damage to be a priority have an invul save to help survive and then can half damage into a possible 3 wounds back. Chaplain dreads, mortis and relic contemptors, leviathans, deredeos and even redemptors can just soak up an excess of fire power mindlessly for 1cp.

Maybe transhuman should only cost 1cp since most marine infantry needs help?

Codex dreads dude.

He didn't say that, dude.

Well it’s what he was referring to. None of the codex dreads have the things you mentioned.

Here's a quick lesson on communication. When you mean to reference a specific subset in a larger category, you have to use specific language. When the statement is "most dreads need help", it means the majority of dreadnoughts need help. It's that simple, because it was simple statement devoid of any other context or information.

 

Now, I obviously know that most of the codex options either aren't as resilient as a contemptor chassis or don't function as a core fire support option. And that was part of the point; I was addressing that "most dreads need help", when 7 out of the 12 dreadnought options do not need the help of duty eternal to survive and be a nuisance.

 

Note that I said "most of the codex options" as one of the codex options is a contemptor chassis, with another being the redemptor who's wound pool allows it keep pace fairly well. Not "none" of them.

[Hymnblade]

Here's a quick lesson on communication. When you mean to reference a specific subset in a larger category, you have to use specific language. When the statement is "most dreads need help", it means the majority of dreadnoughts need help. It's that simple, because it was simple statement devoid of any other context or information.

 

The context is the rest of the thread, where the same point has been made repeatedly by multiple people, starting from page 1.