Shadow and Iron supplement discussion

[RedFurioso]

[1ncarnadine]

Awesome. Can't wait, personally. So what can we expect?

 

LOYALISTS:

• Legio Praesagius - a given, they're on the cover
• Legio Oberon (Death Bolts II) - likely. Lots of old lore and mentions.
• Legio Lysanda (Sentinels of the Edge) - possible. They nearly blew up Lorgar on Armatura IIRC
• House Vornherr - one of Andy's favorite creations, so pretty much guaranteed. Had transfers on the recent Atarus sheet, too.
• Ordo Sinister - I'll cover this in its own section, though
• What else? That seems like a lot! Maybe another Knight House?

 

TRAITORS:

• Legio Infernus - if Praesagius is here...
• Legio Audax - and probably Ursus Claws. It remains to be seen if this is an Audax-exclusive (Vulpa hopes not, but seems likely)
• What else? A Traitor-aligned Knight House or two? Another Titan Legion? Would there be anything equivalent in scope to the Ordo Sinister?

 

ORDO SINISTER:

Well, these guys are a surprise. What the heck are they doing here? I remember a rumor a ways back that Andy Hoare wanted to expand the Ordo Sinister to allow for Reavers and Warhounds and such. So I have some thoughts.

 

• If it is being expanded, but if they don't want to trample the Inferno section to dust, then there are still a core of powerful, null-piloted psi-titans with a further normal Titan Legion as back-up that includes all of the other classes with a set of Legio-style rules that might reflect being the Emperor's own personal Titan Legion.
• Psi-titans everywhere, Inferno be damned! I'm not excited for this possibility but I'm sure some people might be.
• Somewhere in-between, where some titan can be upgraded to a psi-titan at a cost

And to reiterate the first question: What are they doing here?

• resupply/refitting after Prospero or another Great Crusade action?
• sent or redirected immediately upon word of the Ruinstorm/warp entity opponents and some of them are now trapped in the Ultima Segmentum
• or they are including a Prospero scenario here because where else would it go? Which could also imply Xestobiax has a non-zero possibility of appearing and having opposing Traitor psi-titan rules with a flavor of their own. I wouldn't expect this at all because the preview only mentioned the Ordo Sinister rather than a generalized "includes rules for psi-titans," though. But again, I wouldn't put it past them either.

WHAT ELSE?:

• New maniples, I'll guess 3-4, most of which will probably involve the Warbringer?
• New scenarios, probably 6
• A campaign system!
• That seems like a lot already if you consider the size of the books we've had so far, so that's probably about it. But who knows?

[shipmonkey]

 

Awesome. Can't wait, personally. So what can we expect?

 

LOYALISTS:

• Legio Praesagius - a given, they're on the cover
• Legio Oberon (Death Bolts II) - likely. Lots of old lore and mentions.
• Legio Lysanda (Sentinels of the Edge) - possible. They nearly blew up Lorgar on Armatura IIRC
• House Vornherr - one of Andy's favorite creations, so pretty much guaranteed. Had transfers on the recent Atarus sheet, too.
• Ordo Sinister - I'll cover this in its own section, though
• What else? That seems like a lot! Maybe another Knight House?

 

TRAITORS:

• Legio Infernus - if Praesagius is here...
• Legio Audax - and probably Ursus Claws. It remains to be seen if this is an Audax-exclusive (Vulpa hopes not, but seems likely)
• What else? A Traitor-aligned Knight House or two? Another Titan Legion? Would there be anything equivalent in scope to the Ordo Sinister?

 

ORDO SINISTER:

Well, these guys are a surprise. What the heck are they doing here? I remember a rumor a ways back that Andy Hoare wanted to expand the Ordo Sinister to allow for Reavers and Warhounds and such. So I have some thoughts.

 

• If it is being expanded, but if they don't want to trample the Inferno section to dust, then there are still a core of powerful, null-piloted psi-titans with a further normal Titan Legion as back-up that includes all of the other classes with a set of Legio-style rules that might reflect being the Emperor's own personal Titan Legion.
• Psi-titans everywhere, Inferno be damned! I'm not excited for this possibility but I'm sure some people might be.
• Somewhere in-between, where some titan can be upgraded to a psi-titan at a cost

And to reiterate the first question: What are they doing here?

• resupply/refitting after Prospero or another Great Crusade action?
• sent or redirected immediately upon word of the Ruinstorm/warp entity opponents and some of them are now trapped in the Ultima Segmentum
• or they are including a Prospero scenario here because where else would it go? Which could also imply Xestobiax has a non-zero possibility of appearing and having opposing Traitor psi-titan rules with a flavor of their own. I wouldn't expect this at all because the preview only mentioned the Ordo Sinister rather than a generalized "includes rules for psi-titans," though. But again, I wouldn't put it past them either.

WHAT ELSE?:

• New maniples, I'll guess 3-4, most of which will probably involve the Warbringer?
• New scenarios, probably 6
• A campaign system!
• That seems like a lot already if you consider the size of the books we've had so far, so that's probably about it. But who knows?

 

I think you missed Legio Suturvora for the Traitors.

 

i would assume the most logical explanation for Ordo Sinister’s deployment is that we will be getting rules for warp enhanced/possessed Titans/Knights in this book. It fits with the Word Bearers being in charge of the Shadow Crusade. 

 

the next question after that is whether we will be getting a Forgeworld upgrade kit for the Psi-Titans or a plastic sprue with Ordo Sinister marked armor/head options and the Sinistramanus Tenebrea.

[Beren]

The Warbound Household of Nahrin is a one off mention in Tempest as one of the allied cohorts to the Taghmata Barbarel. I've also seen some speculation on rules for titanic daemons as these were present at Calth (and would make a good counterpoint for Sinister), but it's a bit of a stretch.

 

Regarding Sinister, the author in universe is not omniscient and the Emperor could potentially have obtained Titans in secrecy after the uproar demanding Warlords caused.

 

Xestobiax seems highly unlikely (all of their outposts were in the galactic south iirc) unless they do as you described, which I personally don't find probable either.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Beren

[1ncarnadine]

I think you missed Legio Suturvora for the Traitors.

 

Legio Infernus is Legio Suturvora. It is an alternate cognomen.

 

 

i would assume the most logical explanation for Ordo Sinister’s deployment is that we will be getting rules for warp enhanced/possessed Titans/Knights in this book. It fits with the Word Bearers being in charge of the Shadow Crusade.

I wondered about warp-enhanced Titans, but we already somewhat have that in Legio Interfector. And they had previously said the first daemon-Titans were at the Titandeath excepting one other instance during the Shadow Crusade. So, maybe? We could be getting rules for that one instance. Seems odd, though. I suspect it's going to be another supplement or two before Daemon Titans really show up.

 

 

 

the next question after that is whether we will be getting a Forgeworld upgrade kit for the Psi-Titans or a plastic sprue with Ordo Sinister marked armor/head options and the Sinistramanus Tenebrea.

I'd expect a resin upgrade for Psi-Titans, but I guess an upgrade sprue isn't impossible. Specialist Games has really been about the plastics.

 

 

The Warbound Household of Nahrin is a one off mention in Tempest as one of the allied cohorts to the Taghmata Barbarel. I've also seen some speculation on rules for titanic daemons as these were present at Calth (and would make a good counterpoint for Sinister), but it's a bit of a stretch.

 

Regarding Sinister, the author in universe is not omniscient and the Emperor could potentially have obtained Titans in secrecy after the uproar demanding Warlords caused.

 

Xestobiax seems highly unlikely (all of their outposts were in the galactic south iirc) unless they do as you described, which I personally don't find probable either.

Nice find! Yeah, so maybe Nahrin is in there.

 

The author isn't omniscient, but he's in an extremely high position regardless. It's a pretty big deal that he has access to knowledge of the psi-titans at all. But you're right, there could have been more. The webway project seems to have been beyond the AK's remit, for one, and we know the Ordo SInister was deployed there based on a short story...

Edited January 30, 2020 by LetsYouDown

[Mandragola]

The way the warlord is set up, a sprue might make more sense than resin stuff. You need both arm and carapace weapons, plus maybe a head and other details. You could fit that on a sprue... though that doesn’t mean they will.

 

Hopefully we’ll get previews in a few days anyway showing us what’s in the book.

[Mendi Warrior]

I personnally hope for a plastic sprue. Fingers crossed.

[Guest]

I would say the Hand of Darkness will be resin... But I could be wrong.

[RedFurioso]

 

Awesome. Can't wait, personally. So what can we expect?

 

LOYALISTS:

• Legio Praesagius - a given, they're on the cover
• Legio Oberon (Death Bolts II) - likely. Lots of old lore and mentions.
• Legio Lysanda (Sentinels of the Edge) - possible. They nearly blew up Lorgar on Armatura IIRC
• House Vornherr - one of Andy's favorite creations, so pretty much guaranteed. Had transfers on the recent Atarus sheet, too.
• Ordo Sinister - I'll cover this in its own section, though
• What else? That seems like a lot! Maybe another Knight House?

 

Dan Abnett mentioned 8 (!) Legions from Tigrus and Accatran in the Unremembered Empire. We know that Solaria is Tigrus' Legio, maybe there will be Legio Destructor and Legio Xerxes from Accatran? And remember that possessed Titan in the Laurel of Defiance short story? Banelord prototype...

[Sandlemad]

Xestobiax is an interesting one because Inferno goes to lengths to emphasise that more than most legions, they were scattered across the galaxy in their small vigils or garrisons. Prospero and Zhao-Arkadd are both pretty dang far from Ultramar but it's clearly a bit of background meant to allow them to pop up in whatever future works Bligh and crew might have wanted them in.

 

Doesn't seem all that likely - even though it's be interesting to have two very different forms of psychically enhanced titans in the game - but if they wanted to allow for a complex campaign system that goes beyond simply loyalist and traitor, maybe.

 

 

 

If it is being expanded, but if they don't want to trample the Inferno section to dust, then there are still a core of powerful, null-piloted psi-titans with a further normal Titan Legion as back-up that includes all of the other classes with a set of Legio-style rules that might reflect being the Emperor's own personal Titan Legion.

I kind of like the idea of non-psychic 'serf titans' or, better, something like bonded, herladry-blackened and psi-shielded knight houses - a bit like some of the colder examples you get with the Mechanicum - that could accompany the Ordo Sinister. That the Ordo is just warlords is a significant, characterful and well-written part of their background (though I totally get the limited viewpoint of AK argument) and I'd be sorry to see it go. Non-psychic additions would do the least damage to that image, to my mind.

 

As to what they're doing, Ruinstorm response seems like a shoe-in. That's exactly the sort of apocalyptic scenario they were created for and moreover seems in line with how FW depicts disastrous warp stuff in the black books.

[RipOffProductions]

The way the warlord is set up, a sprue might make more sense than resin stuff. You need both arm and carapace weapons, plus maybe a head and other details. You could fit that on a sprue... though that doesn’t mean they will.

 

Hopefully we’ll get previews in a few days anyway showing us what’s in the book.

true, but a Psi-Titan upgrade kit could have resin bits for all the components normally found on a weapons sprue; psi-weapons, a head(or two, if they're willing to be generous with options), and maybe special heraldic shields or other Ordo Sinister specific decorations(though that's not required since there are heraldic shields included on the armor sprue).

 

if there aren't any kind of carapace Psi-weapons to fill that part of a Warlord's arsenal, then in the bundled kit with the plastic parts those remaining components can be filled out with other resin weapons, thus removing the need to include a weapon sprue.

 

I hope there are several types of Psi-weapons, even if there might be restrictions on mixing/using them together, it would help spice up a Ordo Sinister force in the event that Psi-Weapons remain Warlord exclusive.

[1ncarnadine]

true, but a Psi-Titan upgrade kit could have resin bits for all the components normally found on a weapons sprue; psi-weapons, a head(or two, if they're willing to be generous with options), and maybe special heraldic shields or other Ordo Sinister specific decorations(though that's not required since there are heraldic shields included on the armor sprue).

 

if there aren't any kind of carapace Psi-weapons to fill that part of a Warlord's arsenal, then in the bundled kit with the plastic parts those remaining components can be filled out with other resin weapons, thus removing the need to include a weapon sprue.

 

I hope there are several types of Psi-weapons, even if there might be restrictions on mixing/using them together, it would help spice up a Ordo Sinister force in the event that Psi-Weapons remain Warlord exclusive.

Yeah I could definitely see either option covering the bases that way. I wouldn't be surprised if those middle shoulder plates (that have the 3 options, including the blank & Eye of Horus) came in whatever upgrade pack with the Ordo Sinister lion symbol on them.

 

Though it's also possible the upgrade is literally just the resin weapon arm priced identically to the existing options, and the iconography gets covered in a transfer sheet... we'll have to wait and see I guess. It sure would be neat to have another couple head options, though. Lucius-pattern head, when FW??

 

Anyway, I have my fingers crossed that they cover some of the new supplement's contents in a stream in the next few weeks. I'll try to do a write-up again if they do and I find time, unless someone else does first.

Edited February 2, 2020 by LetsYouDown

[Fajita Fan]

If the rest of the Warlord weapons were done in resin I can’t see GW having a market case for making plastic psi-titan sprue considering how rare they were during the Heresy. There were literally 25 Warlord psi-titans produced.  25.  I think we’ll be lucky to see a transfer sheet alone a sprue with a lion shoulder plate  I’m more than happy to make my own gun and await the rules, I have to spray my shoulders silver then I’m going to have a coworker ink this design on them (just the outline, not the little squiggles within the mane).  I’m so happy we’re getting rules though, I’ve wanted to do a psi-titan conversion with the gun counting as a volcano cannon. 

 

https://www.vectorstock.com/royalty-free-vector/lion-head-line-art-vector-24053521

[Beren]

Not plastic perhaps, but there likely is enough popularity to warrant at least transfers. I expect there'll be far more Titanicus Ordo Sinister Titans in the wild than there ever was in the wild, which is probably already the case for some Legios.

[Splog]

Are they likely to be a Legio or an ally unit?

[Beren]

That is not a possibility I had considered. Being an ally unit would make sense given their limited variety and numbers.

[noigrim]

Anyone know when it is due?

[Fajita Fan]

Are they likely to be a Legio or an ally unit?

They shouldn’t be a legio if we’re going by fluff, they shouldn’t really be able to join a maniple and should only be a support titan. There are four chambers to the Ordo Sinister and the old fluff said there may have been other variants of psi-titans but the Warlords are the only ones that exist in the current canon that I could find. Psi-titans aren’t just rare with only 25 in existence but they were experimental, they were scratching the surface of equipping large scale Imperial war machines with alien psyker weapons. Could they fight along side one another? Maybe but it seemed like the Ordo was spread thin to deal with specific threats.

 

If you guys haven’t read Ordo Sinister you should, it’s very short but it gives you an idea of how grimdark the WH universe gets and also just how far the Emperor was dabbling in very dark things.

[Fire Golem]

Anyone know when it is due?

If all the new stuff is coming with the new starter, preorders will be the 8th and they’ll arrive on the 15th. We’ll know if this is the case in about half an hour when the next week preorder preview goes up. 

 

edit: yeah, preorder 8th, released 15th. 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/02/02/new-tau-new-titans-and-more/

Edited February 2, 2020 by fire golem

[Sandlemad]

 

 

This 97-page book also details the Psi-Titans of the Ordo Sinister, including the Warlord Sinister

 

Sounds to me like there'll be more than just the warlord for the Ordo. We can probably expect rules for Ignatum and Metalica too? Forgot that Metalica is pretty close to Ultramar, makes sense to bring them in here.

[Beren]

Yep, looks like the Warlords have backup.

[1ncarnadine]

 

 

 

This 97-page book also details the Psi-Titans of the Ordo Sinister, including the Warlord Sinister

 

Sounds to me like there'll be more than just the warlord for the Ordo. We can probably expect rules for Ignatum and Metalica too? Forgot that Metalica is pretty close to Ultramar, makes sense to bring them in here.

 

Maybe. That's a lot! But also they stated it's a 97-page supplement, which is the same size as Titandeath. Doom of Molech was only ~80 pages. Titandeath also had a glut of color plates compared to DoM, so if it's the space efficiency of the latter and the size of the former, that could include tons.

 

I'm still really interested to see how the Warlord Sinister works. It doesn't have a regular reactor, or a machine spirit! The rules as stands may be tweaked quite a bit, or they may just settle for the same basic system but say it represents the psyker batteries. We'll see! Exciting times, and I'm stoked this is coming in so quickly.

[RedFurioso]

Maybe Metallica and Ignatum would be in the book...

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Looking forward to whatever tie-in articles we get on WarCom this week, hopefully a preview of the Warbringer's command terminal is in order

[RipOffProductions]

Looking forward to whatever tie-in articles we get on WarCom this week, hopefully a preview of the Warbringer's command terminal is in order

 

the article about this week's upcoming pre-orders they describe the Warbringer Nemesis as being the same size as a Reaver, which to me means at least 1 of 3 things:

 

1) the Warbringer has the same Scale stat as the Reaver

 

2) the Warbringer's AT model is a different size relative to the other Titans then the full size 40K one(unlikely)

 

3) the author is a fool who got confused because the two Titans use the same size base and firing-arc template.