FAQ UP

[ValourousHeart]

@VH - because eliminating = removing totally

 

what I take Bluejay to be saying is that the sisters opponent is not eliminating the AoF rule but rather just puting another consideration on to IF WE want to use it or not (along with how many MD do we have...)

 

So if we have the 3 units all spread out and they get charged but we only have 1 MD then it makes no difference ... IF how ever we have 3 MD then yes it would make a difference.

 

MD are the limiting factor.  Arbitrary target section is not.  I'm still waiting on a single example of an army wide special rule that is blocked in a similar way only using the core rule book, that has nothing to do with the specific unit rules interacting.

 

Slasher and Roland are correct. That is what I am saying. 

 

The order that my opponent chooses fights may change the number of opportunities I have to perform an Act of Faith, but the rule is still there and I am the one deciding to use it. It's not significantly different to not having any simulacra. My opponent chooses his fight first, so he is deciding which unit can use an Act of Faith first.

 

Remember that Acts of Faith are an option. Their use is dependent on many factors. I have no problem with smart play by my opponent forcing me to make difficult choices about using them. I only get to perform one Act of Faith per phase anyway. It's the simulacrum that is giving me a possibility to use more if the situation warrants it. 

 

I don't mind smart players finding interesting combinations.  I love coming up with and facing interesting combinations.

 

I also don't mind unique rule interactions, like how GSC ambush rules are impacted by Infiltrators.  Even rules interactions that are decidedly favored toward one faction, like how Raven Guard count as being in cover and Imperial Fist ignore cover.  All 4 sets of rules work individually, it is only when they are matched up against each other that one cancels the other.

 

What I disagree with is an interpretation of a codex rule that renders it useless with only the core rule book.  Because that means the rule doesn't work even in a vacuum.

[BluejayJunior]

Piling into or heroically intervening into Blood Angels negates their +1 to wound in the fight phase. That is much more of a negation than the example for Acts of Faith.

 

And again, I have already demonstrated that nothing is making Acts of Faith or Simulacra useless by how the opponent chooses targets. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

That doesn't negate the rule. It just means that one of the conditions precedent for the rule didn't come into effect.

[BluejayJunior]

That doesn't negate the rule. It just means that one of the conditions precedent for the rule didn't come into effect.

And is that any different that what ValorousHeart is saying happens with Acts of Faith?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

 

That doesn't negate the rule. It just means that one of the conditions precedent for the rule didn't come into effect.

And is that any different that what ValorousHeart is saying happens with Acts of Faith?

Yeah. In your example, you prevent that unit from using its rule, all of the other BA units can still gain +1 to wound if they charged.

 

Whereas, in Valourous Heart's example, every single unit in the Sisters army, that doesn't have a Simulacrum, or isn't within range of the Triumph is prevented from using an Act of Faith. One enemy decision negates your ability to choose which unit gets to make your free AoF (One problem with VH's example is that it only makes you think about a single unit of Repentia, what if it was 5 units?)

 

That's why I agree with VH's view. Your whole army gets one act of faith for one unit per phase.

 

In addition, units with Simulacrums or within range of the triumph can perform acta of faith.

[BluejayJunior]

 

 

That doesn't negate the rule. It just means that one of the conditions precedent for the rule didn't come into effect.

And is that any different that what ValorousHeart is saying happens with Acts of Faith?

Yeah. In your example, you prevent that unit from using its rule, all of the other BA units can still gain +1 to wound if they charged.

 

Whereas, in Valourous Heart's example, every single unit in the Sisters army, that doesn't have a Simulacrum, or isn't within range of the Triumph is prevented from using an Act of Faith. One enemy decision negates your ability to choose which unit gets to make your free AoF (One problem with VH's example is that it only makes you think about a single unit of Repentia, what if it was 5 units?)

 

That's why I agree with VH's view. Your whole army gets one act of faith for one unit per phase.

 

In addition, units with Simulacrums or within range of the triumph can perform acta of faith.

 

But it is not my enemy's decision to use an Act of Faith. It's mine. No matter what fight he chooses first, I am still the one deciding to use my free Act of Faith. 

 

The simulacrum rule does not say that this does not count against the once per turn limit. It says that if you have already performed one or more acts of faith, then the unit with the simulacrum can still perform an Act of Faith. My opponent is not in any way negating my Acts of Faith, even if they may be limiting the possible number of opportunities to use an Act of Faith. 

 

The number of Acts of Faith you can perform is not 1 + # of Simulacra + # units in range of Triumph.

The number of Acts of Faith you can perform is 1. And then units with Simulacra or within range of the Triumph can still perform an Act of Faith after that 1 has been used. 

[taikishi]

 

No, there's no overthinking. It's 2+2 = 4

 

Great than it should be very easy for you to point to the text that makes the first act of faith you perform count as the free one instead of one of the others.

 

Definition of even if

—used to stress that something will happen despite something else that might prevent it

 

Like I said, it's basic English. Similacrums let you perform Acts of Faith "even if" an Act of Faith has been performed this phase. You're allowed one per phase. To perform additional, the unit must have a Similacrum or be within 6" of the Triumph. If you have 1 Similacrum in your army, and that unit performs your first AoF, it may perform a second "even if you have already performed one or more Acts of Faith in that phase." The rest of the units in your army may perform 0 Acts of Faith in a phase if the Similacrum unit is the first unit to perform an AoF.

Edited February 4, 2020 by taikishi

[taikishi]

 

my opponent is not eliminating my Acts of Faith special rule by choosing who fights first in their fight phase

 

Hmmm.  Are you contradicting yourself here or am I just not understanding the position you are taking?

Let me use this example to map out what I think your position is, and you can tell me where I got lost.

 

You have a repentia squad, a Battle sister squad with a simulacrum and the Triumph, and the repentia are not in range of the Triumph.

It is your opponents turn and they charged all 3 of your units with units of their own, so your opponent is going first for at least 1 fight.

 

If your opponent chooses to attack the Repentia first, then your position is that you are able to perform 3 acts of faith that phase.

However if your opponent chooses to attack anyone else first, then you will only be able to perform 2 acts of faith.

 

Is that your position?

If it is, then how do you square "My opponent is not eliminating my acts of faith by choosing who fights first" with not being able to perform the same number of acts of faith where the only discernible choice is which unit fought first.

 

 

You may perform up to 3. Notice I said "up to".

 

Your example doesn't make it clear if the BSS is within 6" of the Triumph or if the Triumph just happens to be in the melee, so I'll operate under both assumptions:

 

If the Repentia perform the first Act of Faith and the BSS is within 6" of the Triumph:

-the BSS may still perform up to two Acts of Faith (Similacrum + Triumph) OR the Triumph may perform an AoF (Icon) AND the BSS may perform an AoF (Similacrum)

*** Maximum AoF possible: 3

 

 

If the BSS performs the first Act of Faith and is within 6" of the Triumph:

-the BSS may perform up to two more Acts of Faith - one from the Icon and one from the Similacrum

-the BSS may perform one more AoF - with either the Similacrum OR the Triumph.

---If it chooses the Triumph's extra AoF, it may still perform one more with the Similacrum but other units may not use the Triumph's Icon for the phase

---If it chooses to use its Similacrum, it may still perform one more AoF with the Icon OR the Triumph may perform one AoF through the Icon

-In any case, the Repentia cannot take an AoF that phase if the BSS performs even one AoF as they cannot have Similacrums are are not within 6" of the Triumph

*** Maximum AoF possible: 3

 

If the Triumph performs the first Act of Faith:

-one unit within 6" of the Triumph, including the Triumph, may perform 1 Act of Faith through the Icon

-the BSS with a Similacrum may perform up to two Acts of Faith - one from the Similacrum, 1 from the Icon (assuming no other units do so)

-the Repentia cannot perform an Act of Faith as the Triumph has already used your one for the phase, the unit does not have a Similacrum, and the unit is not within 6" of the Triumph

*** Maximum  AoF possible: 3

 

If the BSS performs the first AoF and is not within 6" of the Triumph

-It may perform one more AoF with its Similacrum

-One other unit within 6" of the Triumph, including the Triumph, may perform one Act of Faith

-the Repentia cannot perform an AoF because they do not possess a Similacrum, are not within 6" of the Triumph, and you've already used your one AoF for the phase.

*** Maximum AoF possible: 3

 

 

If the Triumph performs the first AoF and no units are within 6" of it

-It may perform one more AoF with its Icon

-the BSS may perform up to one AoF with its Similacrum

-the Repentia cannot perform an AoF

*** Maxmum AoF possible: 3

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I think I've ascertained the issue:

 

The definition of AoF states:

 

'if your army contains at least one unit with this ability, you can perform one Act of Faith in each phase.'

 

There's nothing in that which says that 'one' means 'ONLY one.' You're reading a restriction into the rules which doesn't exist.

 

Your army gets one per phase as a starting point, all others are additional to that baseline AoF. That's why the wordings for Simulacrums and the Icon of the Valorous Heart are written with reference to 'one or more' the book is written as if multiple acts of faith are uncontroversial.

[BluejayJunior]

I am reading one Act of Faith means one Act of Faith. The rule itself limits it to one Act of Faith per phase.

 

Multiple Acts of Faith are not controversial. I am not saying that only one can be done even if you have multiple simulacra. The wording for those abilities says "one or more" so there is no doubt that multiple units with simulacra can all use their additional Acts of Faith. 

 

Simulacra do not directly increase the number of Acts of Faith you can perform in a phase. It allows units to use an Act of Faith after you have already used the one you are allowed. I realize this is almost the same thing, but there is a subtle difference. But that difference is why the order in which you use your Acts of Faith matters.

 

Going back to the example of the BSS with a simulacra and a repentia squad. If the repentia squad use an AoF first, then the BSS squad can only use an AoF because of their simulacrum. If the BSS, uses an AoF first, then the repentia can't use an AoF because one has already been performed this turn, but the BSS could use a second one with their simulacrum. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

You're just reading a limitation into the rules which doesn't exist anywhere in the book. Your army gets one Act of Faith inherently every phase. Nothing in the rules for Simulacrums (Simulacra?)?) or the Icon state that they remove or take the place of that initial 'one'. If the rule stated you get ONLY one, I could understand it, but they don't. They make it clear that they are in addition to the initial one.

Until someone can demonstrate to me that that limitation exists in the rules. I'm not going to read it into the rules.

[taikishi]

I think I've ascertained the issue:

 

The definition of AoF states:

 

'if your army contains at least one unit with this ability, you can perform one Act of Faith in each phase.'

 

There's nothing in that which says that 'one' means 'ONLY one.' You're reading a restriction into the rules which doesn't exist.

 

Your army gets one per phase as a starting point, all others are additional to that baseline AoF. That's why the wordings for Simulacrums and the Icon of the Valorous Heart are written with reference to 'one or more' the book is written as if multiple acts of faith are uncontroversial.

 

No, I'm reading the definition of one as:

 

* being a single unit or thing

* a single person or thing

 

One means exactly one. One means only one. You are permitted one Act of Faith in each phase. Similacrums and the Icon of the Valorous Heart allow units to perform Acts of Faith "even if you have already performed one or more Acts of Faith in that phase.

 

RAW, multiple Acts of Faith are not permitted in a single phase. Similacrums and the Icon permit units to perform Acts of Faith "even if you have already performed one or more Acts of Faith in that phase."

 

1. Have you performed any Acts of Faith this phase?

-N: You may perform an Act of Faith

-Y: Go to 2

 

2. Does the unit you wish to perform an Act of Faith with have a Similacrum Imperialis?

-N: Go to 3

-Y: Go to 5

 

3. Is it within 6" of the Triumph while Icon of the Valorous Heart is active?

-N: You cannot perform an Act of Faith with this unit

-Y: Go to 4

 

4. Has the Icon of the Valorous Heart's ability been used this phase?

-N: You may perform an Act of Faith with this unit

-Y: You cannot perform an Act of Faith with this unit

 

5. Has the unit already used its Similacrum Imperialis to perform an Act of Faith?

-N: You may perform an Act of Faith with this unit

-Y: Go to 3

[ValourousHeart]

*** Passive agressive jab quoting the dictionary ***

 

Definition of even if

—used to stress that something will happen despite something else that might prevent it

 

Followed by...

Your example doesn't make it clear if the BSS is within 6" of the Triumph or if the Triumph just happens to be in the melee, so I'll operate under both assumptions:

 

In response to what I said and Taikishi even quoted what I said.

 

 

You have a repentia squad, a Battle sister squad with a simulacrum and the Triumph, and the repentia are not in range of the Triumph.

 

 

If I didn't say this before, trying to keep the conversation civil.

[Aqui]

=][= At a members' request, this topic is being reopened. However, I will be watching and if the same behaviour I noticed before occurs again, the topic will be permanently closed and offenders dealt with appropriately. =][= Edited March 5, 2020 by Aqui

[Aqui]

Topic reopened.

[taikishi]

Thanks, Aqui.

 

Something was pointed out to me elsewhere that I haven't seen discussed here and wanted to bring it to members' attention to discuss:

 

Prior to the FAQ on the Sisters Codex, the only means for a Canoness to take a boltgun in a non-Legends format was to also take a power sword. That option has since been errata'd in the FAQ to replace "boltgun" with "plasma pistol" in order to make the box set Canoness' armament legal.

 

With the FAQ, a Canoness can now only take a boltgun if Legends options are permitted as the model no longer has any entry in the Codex datasheet permitting it to take a boltgun.

[Dread]

Thanks so much for sharing this. Makes me happy since I have 2 of her.

[taikishi]

I assume you mean the part about the plasma pistol being a legal option for the Rod of Office.

 

Personally, I'm a bit furious about the other part - the part about bolters no longer being a legal equipment option (outside of condmeners, which aren't bolters -- they're condemnors!) despite them being the most basic weapon for the entire army. It was bad enough they couldn't take storm bolters, eviscerators, and combi-weapons, but denying them the ability to take a boltgun?

 

I'm also not convinced this is malicious, or even intentional. I think GW was so intent on fixing the box set model they overlooked the fact that this removed bolters as an option for the model. I also wouldn't be surprised if, when the multi-part version releases, the model comes with a bolter that can be upgraded to a condemnor.

Edited March 6, 2020 by taikishi

[Trokair]

The loss of the Boltgun was briefly mentioned in the other FAQ thread but mostly everybody focused on the MD situation and ruling.

 

While I personally am disappointed by the removal of the Boltgun option, as I had intended to have a boltgun canoness to stay with my Retributors it was pointed out that the known weapons of the multi part cannones does not have a boltgun either and therefore the change may have been intentional so that all plastic options are current while metal options (that are not in plastic) are Legend only.  

 

[CaptainMarsh]

I see little reason why in any reasonable game anyone would prevent you from using that Legends option. 

[tvih]

I see little reason why in any reasonable game anyone would prevent you from using that Legends option. 

 

Yeah, only would/should matter in tournaments. And tournaments aren't reasonable games anyway :P

 

Thing is, none of the metal Canonesses that I can think of had a basic Bolter anyway either, so the only way you'd have one is via converting. In the meanwhile Condemnor is just 1pts, so not exactly a huge tax over a bolter for such a cool-looking weapon.

[bkde]

 

 

I see little reason why in any reasonable game anyone would prevent you from using that Legends option.

Yeah, only would/should matter in tournaments. And tournaments aren't reasonable games anyway :P

 

Thing is, none of the metal Canonesses that I can think of had a basic Bolter anyway either, so the only way you'd have one is via converting. In the meanwhile Condemnor is just 1pts, so not exactly a huge tax over a bolter for such a cool-looking weapon.

The slow grow FLG league I play in doesn’t allow legends and it’s hard to imagine a more laid back environment...most organized events don’t only to level the playing field among all players. If you’re playing with your buddy I’m sure legends is fine, but if you’re playing in any setting where you’re matched with a random opponent I would err on the side of no.

[Lemondish]

The slow grow FLG league I play in doesn’t allow legends and it’s hard to imagine a more laid back environment...

Pretty easy to, actually. It's right in this thread! Imagined that exact same league...only without arbitrary limitations.

[taikishi]

Either way, posts like Bkde's reinforce my disdain for Legends as a concept. Especially in light of "no boltguns for a canoness", which is probably one of the most absurd "this is Legends only" options out there.

 

As for condemnors, the 1 point is still a "tax" to take a bolter and ignores things like opportunity costs or the fact that lists sometimes do come out to exactly 1500/1750/2000/whatever points before adding in something like a condemnor.

[CaptainMarsh]

 

 

I see little reason why in any reasonable game anyone would prevent you from using that Legends option.

Yeah, only would/should matter in tournaments. And tournaments aren't reasonable games anyway

 

Thing is, none of the metal Canonesses that I can think of had a basic Bolter anyway either, so the only way you'd have one is via converting. In the meanwhile Condemnor is just 1pts, so not exactly a huge tax over a bolter for such a cool-looking weapon.

The slow grow FLG league I play in doesn’t allow legends and it’s hard to imagine a more laid back environment...most organized events don’t only to level the playing field among all players. If you’re playing with your buddy I’m sure legends is fine, but if you’re playing in any setting where you’re matched with a random opponent I would err on the side of no.

 

We have allowed Legends in every tournament and event we've held and it has proven to be no problem. Beyond that, TOs and event organizers are people with functioning brains and should be expected to consider a request like, "Can my Canoness use a boltgun as a Legends option?". If they say no its fine, if stupid and unreasonable. This is doubly so when it comes to wargear options on models that do exist normally.

 

As a defense against possible abuse, the rule at my store is: Legends okay, if it is the model. This means older models that have had changes in newer editions or are no longer sold are totally playable if you have them, but if some new super combo is found. the WAAC crowd will have a much harder time trying to take advantage of it.

Edited March 6, 2020 by CaptainMarsh