Feedback for Zone Mortalis Blood Angels List

[Cris R]

I’m a first time 30k player who is in the process of putting together a fluffy Zone Mortalis Blood Angels list for the NOVA Open. I wanted to get some feedback on what I can improve with this list, which I built around the Blood Angels Praetor in Terminator armor model. It’s a Delegatus for this list so I can run the Assault Force RoW. 

A few questions: 

1) How can I make my Angel's Tears unit a bigger threat to Power Armor Units? 
2) My Tartaros are my anti-Terminator unit. I've been trying to figure out whether it makes sense to swap out the power axes for power mauls to get a few wounds in before letting the Terminators with Power Fists throw their attacks in at the end or just keep the Power Axes and go all in the round initiative round with all of my attacks. Which one makes sense for going after terminators? And should I swap out the flamer for a plasma blaster? 
3) Would it make sense to downgrade the Contemptor to a Cortus Class to free up some more points? If so, would it make sense to add another Terminator to my Tartaros unit? Or should I use those points elsewhere in the list? 

Thanks everyone! 

++ Zone Mortalis - Combatant (Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Army List) [997pts] ++ 

Elites + 

Contemptor Dreadnought Talon [200pts] . Contemptor Dreadnought, Legion: Toxiferno Cannon . . Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon: Meltagun 

The Angel's Tears [220pts]: 2x Angel's Tears Grenade Launcher, 4x Erelim, 2x Iliastus Pettern Assault Cannon with Suspensor Web . Arch-Elelim: Artificer Armour, 2x Plasma Pistol . . Chainsword or Combat Blade: Chainswords/Combat Blades . Chainsword or Combat Blade: Chainswords/Combat Blades 

HQ + 

Delegatus [127pts]: Blade of Perdition, On Foot, Relics of the Dark Age of Technology, Volkite Charger . Consul . . Delegatus . Tartaros Pattern Terminator Armour: Terminator Armour 

Troops + 

Breacher Siege Squad, Legion [245pts]: 9x Breacher Siege Space Marines, Legion . Additional Wargear: 2x Flamer . Breacher Siege Sergeant, Legion: Artificer Armour, Bolter, Melta Bombs . . Power Weapon: Power Sword 

Terminator Squad, Legion , Compulsory [205pts] . Tartaros Pattern Terminator Armour . Terminator Sergeant, Legion: Combi-Bolter, Grenade Harness . . Power Weapon: Power Axe . Terminators, Legion: Heavy Flamer . . Power Weapon: Power Axe . Terminators, Legion: Combi-Bolter . . Power Weapon: Power Axe . Terminators, Legion: Combi-Bolter, Power Fist . Terminators, Legion: Combi-Bolter, Power Fist 

Allegiance + 

Legion and Allegiance: IX: Blood Angels, Loyalist 
Rite of War: Zone Mortalis Assault Force 

++ Total: [997pts] ++

Edited March 2, 2020 by Cris R

[Lautrec the Embraced]

Greetings, I have a few suggestion on how you could make your list more dangerous.

 

- Delegatus does enable you to do one cool thing - you can take Terminator Command Squad. IIRC for measly 5 points total your Termies get WS5, Fearless, Chosen warriors and 1 extra wound on the standard bearer. If you are taking Delegatus, then I wholeheartedly advise taking those lads.

 

- Power mauls are very niche in heresy. Almost always you're better off with axe or sword. Especially when you remember that Encarmine Fury is, in most cases, useless with weapons of S6+. Sure, mauls are better than swords against 2+ save but they are hardly effective at it. However, if you think mauls might help against Terminators, then you should definitely try it out in a game. We may advise against it, but hey, maybe you will like how they perform.

 

- Regardless of which power weapon you choose, do not overlook Chainfists. They are the only thing reliably cutting though dreadnoughts and S8 might be helpful against enemy character. I'd say any Termi squad should have 1-2 Chainfists.

 

- Generally Cortus is very good and more point effecient than regular one - obviously it's somehow worse but it's so much cheaper... Especially when you take blast and template weapons that don't benefit from BS5 anyway. Its ability to overcharge is also very useful.

 

- Double plasma pistols kill around 1.11 marine, Assault cannon 1.04 and double serpenta only 0.36. So I'd say avoid Sepentas with that pitiful 10" range and take extra Cannons. Maybe throw a power weapon on Sarge, even with sword he will be wounding on 2+. It might discourage some weak unit from charging, who knows?

Edited February 4, 2020 by Lautrec the Embraced

[Cris R]

Thanks for the feedback! A few follow up questions:

 

1. Are you sure you can take a command squad with a ZM list? All ZM lists are limited to one unit in the HQ slot, so I'm not sure if you could select another unit once you've picked a Delegatus. I'm new to the game, so correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

2. I'm really tight with points, but could give up a terminator to incorporate your suggestions. Would it make sense to drop the Terminator squad to five marines to free up those points to get chainfists for the Terminators and give the Angel's Tears Sarge a power sword?

 

3. My five marine Angel's Tears unit has two cannons and two grenade launchers. Would you advise changing the grenade launchers for cannons? I probably could pull this off if I drop the number of terminators from six to five.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

To be honest I'm not too familiar with ZM but from what I read,  I don't see anything against command squad. Their rule Retinue says, at least according to Battlescribe: "They may not be taken as part of an army on their own, instead sharing a Force Organisation chart choice with the Warlord they are selected for". So for me they are perfectly legal.

 

I didn't realize that you have 2 Grenade launchers in Tears squad, sorry. Thought the rest have Serpentas. I'd say Assault cannon is more versatile and effective against most targets. To outperform it against normal marines, the Launcher would have to hit approximately 3,74 MEQs per shot. Not impossible, but unlikely. Rad-something rule is cool but only rarely applies. Overall Cannons should be more helpful.

 

If I were you, I'd probably downgrade Contemptor to Cortus, thus freeing 40 points, then spend it on Terminators squad upgrade to Command squad (i believe it's only 5 or 10 pts), turn the fists into chainfists ( 5 pts per fist). It should give you around 25 points to spend as you see fit. You can buy some combi-weapons for Termis or upgrade your sergeants or dread. I'm not sure about meltagun on Cortus. While Toxiferno is purely against infantry, meltagun is only good against vehicles. With an underslung Assault cannon you would be more deadly against infantry and still have 'some' anti-vehicle firepower, though it's obviously worse than melta. Choose accordingly.

[Cris R]

I figured out how to get Command Squads added to my HQ on BattleScribe, so we’re set there. I’ve been able to make the changes with the free points from making this switch. Thanks for your help! Edited February 7, 2020 by Cris R

[Brofist]

One note to consider- Tartaros are a poor choice for hunting deathstars thanks to their 5+ save. Going into a wall of cataphracts will always be an uphill fight. That said, they're cool, and the mobility and ability to overwatch is certainly handy (especially in ZM!). To help give them an edge, consider swapping in a plasma blaster for the heavy flamer and or taking a few combi plasmas. You can ditch the grenade harness. That would be enough to even the odds and the blaster makes you dangerous at a distance. Another thing to consider is that you can deepstrike these terminators... but you don't have a vox on your breachers. If there was a way to give one to the angel's tears that would be a pretty cool combo.

 

Otherwise a pretty decent 'standard' ZM list, all things considered!

Edited February 7, 2020 by Brofist

[Cris R]

Thanks Brofist! After I added the Command Squad to my Delegatus and dropped the Grenade Harness, the first thing that I did with the freed up points was giving a Plasma Blaster to the unit's Standard Bearer and giving another one of the Terminators a Combi-Weapon with the Plasma option. Now with the Command Squad, my Tartaros are WS 5, have Plasma options, the Standard Bearer has 2 wounds, and I've got Fearless within 6 inches. I may continue to struggle with Cataphractii, but I think this unit is better prepared now for them.

[Kizzdougs]

Just put some plasma into the Cataphractii before you go in. Personally I think the Tartaros are hands down better than Cataphractii in ZM.

 

According to the latest FAQ a Delegatus can't take a Command Squad... yeah, it's ridiculous and seems like a mistake to me, but that's what the FAQ says. From my personal experience no one I play with would have any issue with taking the squad for the Delgatus, but it's something to keep in mind.

 

Also, all of the ZM force organisation charts let you take up to two HQs :tu:

[The Ironic Warrior]

Just put some plasma into the Cataphractii before you go in. Personally I think the Tartaros are hands down better than Cataphractii in ZM.

 

According to the latest FAQ a Delegatus can't take a Command Squad... yeah, it's ridiculous and seems like a mistake to me, but that's what the FAQ says. From my personal experience no one I play with would have any issue with taking the squad for the Delgatus, but it's something to keep in mind.

 

Also, all of the ZM force organisation charts let you take up to two HQs

This is a real spicy one, because the original version of this rule still didn't mention Delegatii, the only change is the special character addition. The Delegatus itself has a special rule saying it can take a Command Squad. So either he can take one because of that, or he was never able to take one and that was a mistake. The retinue rule is the only thing that was changed though so it strongly supports Delegatii taking them.

[Kizzdougs]

 

Just put some plasma into the Cataphractii before you go in. Personally I think the Tartaros are hands down better than Cataphractii in ZM.

 

According to the latest FAQ a Delegatus can't take a Command Squad... yeah, it's ridiculous and seems like a mistake to me, but that's what the FAQ says. From my personal experience no one I play with would have any issue with taking the squad for the Delgatus, but it's something to keep in mind.

 

Also, all of the ZM force organisation charts let you take up to two HQs

This is a real spicy one, because the original version of this rule still didn't mention Delegatii, the only change is the special character addition. The Delegatus itself has a special rule saying it can take a Command Squad. So either he can take one because of that, or he was never able to take one and that was a mistake. The retinue rule is the only thing that was changed though so it strongly supports Delegatii taking them.

 

Yeah, I tend to agree. I think it's just one of those things that they over looked. It should just be any Character that is the army's Warlord with the Master of the Legion rule.

 

 

Edit: Yeah, you're definitely right. Right of Command gives him access, and I'd say that it doesn't conflict with the Errata :tu:

Edited February 8, 2020 by Kizzdougs

[Cris R]

I already addressed the Command Squad issue in this thread and the answer is it seems like I can: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/361772-command-squads-in-zone-mortalis-lists/?do=findComment&comment=5473840. I also contacted the ZM event organizers at the con I’ll be playing at and they gave me the green light to bring the Command Squad.

 

Kizzdougs, I’ve already added a Plasma Blaster and Combi-Weapon with Plasma to the Terminator unit in the second revision of the list, so we’re good to go there.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Cris R

[Cris R]

Brofist and Kizzdougs, followup on this list. I'm a little concerned I don't have enough scoring units after moving the Terminators from the Troop Slot to my HQ one as a Command Squad, which also costs me the Deep Strike bonus I get through the ZM Assault Force RoW. I know that not every ZM mission is about controlling markers. In fact, some benefit from bringing a Command Squad with Fearless if you want to lay low your foe. But I wanted to get your thoughts on this tradeoff as I think about my strategy for these mission. Thanks again! 

[Brofist]

Remember that Elites score in ZM, so you still have 3 scoring units going by your list at the top of the page (a troop, a contemptor, the angels tears). That's pretty good.

 

More generally, the amount of scoring units you have is something you need to understand and know to play around with. For example, my most recent ZM list has only two scoring units, but its still a solid list because of how the army plays together.  I know my limitation of only 2 scoring troops, so I change my tactics depending on the mission and my opponent's list. The same can be true with yours- if you roll a certain mission and can outmaneuver your opponent by having more scoring units, then do that. Otherwise focus on killing his scoring units while protecting your own. Some missions don't even really require scoring units, so remember to play the mission objectives. A lot of people loose by the end of deployment because they didn't take the time to understand the mission they are playing and didn't setup their army properly.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Brofist

[Cris R]

Remember that Elites score in ZM, so you still have 3 scoring units going by your list at the top of the page (a troop, a contemptor, the angels tears). That's pretty good.

 

More generally, the amount of scoring units you have is something you need to understand and know to play around with. For example, my most recent ZM list has only two scoring units, but its still a solid list because of how the army plays together.  I know my limitation of only 2 scoring troops, so I change my tactics depending on the mission and my opponent's list. The same can be true with yours- if you roll a certain mission and can outmaneuver your opponent by having more scoring units, then do that. Otherwise focus on killing his scoring units while protecting your own. Some missions don't even really require scoring units, so remember to play the mission objectives. A lot of people loose by the end of deployment because they didn't take the time to understand the mission they are playing and didn't setup their army properly.

 

As a mentor once told me, "fail to plan, plan to fail." Thanks for those thoughts, they're definitely helpful. The NOVA Open ZM event is a set of three games played in one day and you're required to have a Combatant list. That said, some of those games you have to use an Attacker or Defender List, so I may swap out a kitted out unit of Assault Marines for my Contemptor for the Defender list. I think my Combatant list covers Attacker pretty well already. Thoughts?