Melee Dreads Who and what loadout?

[Donkalleone]

I have thought hard about what Melee Dreads should be equipped with.

 

Overall I think that claw and shield is the best option.

This makes the Wulfen Dreads with 102 point a solid choice and screen for Bjorn/Murderfang

 

But vs horde armies the axe is superior and here is my crux.

For 112 we get a Wulfen Dread with charge reroll.

For 125 we get a Ven Dread with FNP.

What is overall more desirable cheap and charge or survivability?

 

 

In addition is the heavyflamer worth their points? In point game they aren't cheap and I think more units is better than a full loadout.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Donkalleone

[PeteySödes]

I typically stick with my Venerables. The 2+ WS I feel useful for getting stuck in and the 6+ FNP typically nets me 2-3 extra wounds which on the T7 4++ body isn't anything to sneeze at.

 

I leave the flamers at home though, typically makes the charges harder unless theres multiple squads to target.

[Karhedron]

The Ven Dread also gets Smoke Launchers making it a shade tougher still.

 

Having said that, I cautiously come down in favour of the Wulfen Dread with claw and shield. The +2" Movement and rerolled charges are big bonuses for a unit that needs to be in melee to make its points back.

 

Whatever the merits of the Ven Dread, for me it comes down to the simple fact that a Wulfen Dread can reliably charge targets in your opponent's DZ on Turn 2 whereas a Ven Dread on average will not. This means the Ven Dread will need to burn CPs in many cases to do a job the Wulfen Dread can do for free.

 

For me, the extra abilities of the Ven Dread are a points trap. Go cheap, go fast, go Wulfen (and save points by going stormbolter rather than heavy flamer).

Edited February 5, 2020 by Karhedron

[PeteySödes]

Yea the difference being I use my to tank and distract. If it can kill thats great but I'm not relying on it getting in.

[Donkalleone]

Thats my Huge Crux. You both have valid Opinions. They are Primary Screens and Sedundary Melee Monsters. They are there to deliver the Characters.

Wulven has ~11"  Adv. Move and Rerolls the Charge. Cheaper. A Succesful Turn 2 Charge is likely. 

Ven Dread ~9" Adv. Move , has 1 Smoke , FNP and Negates the -1 to hit penalityof the Axe. A Succesfull Turn 2 Charge is doubtful. In Addition both MF and Björn have 8" Move which means the Ven hinders them in the Optimal Movement.

[TiguriusX]

The asterisk dread option is character dreads.

 

As characters they have the ultimate defensive rule...cant be shot if not the closest

 

Bjorn...murderfang etc.

 

Th chaplain venerable dreads are peaking in the meta now because they are beastly both shooting and in close combat

[Donkalleone]

The asterisk dread option is character dreads.

 

As characters they have the ultimate defensive rule...cant be shot if not the closest

 

Bjorn...murderfang etc.

 

Th chaplain venerable dreads are peaking in the meta now because they are beastly both shooting and in close combat

How would you fit them out?

[TiguriusX]

 

 

The asterisk dread option is character dreads.

 

As characters they have the ultimate defensive rule...cant be shot if not the closest

 

Bjorn...murderfang etc.

 

Th chaplain venerable dreads are peaking in the meta now because they are beastly both shooting and in close combat

How would you fit them out?

I love lascannon on my chaplains

 

BS2 and doesn't degrade

 

Even if you walk and take the penalty you are basically a mobile long fang that hits like a ton of bricks in melee (5 ws2 thunder hammers basically)

 

If you want pure charging in their face you can do other options

[Karhedron]

One thing to bear in mind is that GW are bringing the FW rules back in house. Given SM Dreads are stomping the meta (Iron Hands ones at least), you might want to see what happens before you splash out on lots of expensive resin.

[PeteySödes]

One thing to bear in mind is that GW are bringing the FW rules back in house. Given SM Dreads are stomping the meta (Iron Hands ones at least), you might want to see what happens before you splash out on lots of expensive resin.

 

Yea with the horde of chappy dreads on display at LVO i fully expect them to get taken down a few pegs for all flavors.

[TiguriusX]

 

 

One thing to bear in mind is that GW are bringing the FW rules back in house. Given SM Dreads are stomping the meta (Iron Hands ones at least), you might want to see what happens before you splash out on lots of expensive resin.

Yea with the horde of chappy dreads on display at LVO i fully expect them to get taken down a few pegs for all flavors.

I'll laugh to myself at the idea of losing a unit before our codex even comes out (SW dreads don't even have litanies)

 

I'm in a bitter mood regarding the space wolf release schedule and our faction being shafted and unable to pretend to compete in 8th

[PeteySödes]

Can’t lose what we never really had right?

 

At any rate I believe the discussion was focused on melee dreads, which I assume would be reasonably focused on wulfen and venerable loadouts. Let’s avoid falling into the dark place shall we?

[Guest Triszin]

Might I also add this thought on the subject.

 

Claw and shield

axe and shield

 

storm bolters vs flamers.

 

benefits and differences?

 

what do you prefer

[TiguriusX]

Can’t lose what we never really had right?

 

At any rate I believe the discussion was focused on melee dreads, which I assume would be reasonably focused on wulfen and venerable loadouts. Let’s avoid falling into the dark place shall we?

Ignoring chaplains...

 

Problem #1 is reaching the enemy with a melee dread

 

Bjorn and murder fang are melee beat sticks who can be character protected from shooting to help reach the enemy.

 

The question becomes how much will you invest to deliver them across the table?

 

I have used a leviathan dread escort as well as storm shield terminators (you can take 10 of these for less than a leviathan and they eat a massive amount of fire but only last 1 to 2 turns at most).

 

Considered a land raider but too expensive.

 

A stalker (T8 W11) or impulsor (T7 W11 with 4++) can do the job as well

 

Maybe you want to use a lucius pattern drop pod for a dread instead?

 

This let's you drop a regular dread instead if a character but you better make the charge roll...

 

Army lists are about synergy...think what your big picture plan is then choose the tools to help achieve your goal

[Karhedron]

Claw and shield

axe and shield

I come down in favour of the Claw of the Wulfen Dread. Between the the flat 3 damage and rerolls to wound, it is better against large targets than the axe and nearly as good against T4 chaff. Plus it is 10 points cheaper.

 

For Ven Dreads, I think there is a good case for the axe as the WS2+ and our Chapter trait negate the -1 to Hit, at least in the first round of combat. Even so, the claw is still pretty good here.

 

storm bolters vs flamers.

Stormbolters every time, especially since Dreads benefit from Bolter Discipline meaning the can always put out 4 shots at 24" range. I think that GW over-values flamers and heavy flamers, particularly on an army that has BS3+. For me, the heavy flamer is not worth the extra 12 points.

[ranulf the revenant]

Don't know if this is off topic, but what about the invictor as melee dread? He seems like a nice, versatile option to me and could synergise well with an outflanking unit (eating overwatch for wulfen maybe :) ). just a thought...

[PeteySödes]

Don't know if this is off topic, but what about the invictor as melee dread? He seems like a nice, versatile option to me and could synergise well with an outflanking unit (eating overwatch for wulfen maybe ). just a thought...

 

I think its certainly worth discussing! I haven't fielded one, but i know they are being used to great effect for both pressure and distraction.

[Guest Triszin]

He has a bunch of wounds and has a ton of dakka, pretty cheap, but no invuln

[Karhedron]

I think an Invictor could work very well for us. At the moment he would not benefit from our Chapter Tactic since he is neither infantry nor a Dread but hopefully that will be fixed in our PA book as it has for BAs (fingers crossed).

 

I think the Invictor won't last long on its own so it either needs to be run as a distraction carnifex or combined with other fast hitting units for a T1 threat. Of course he can easily screen for Bjorn/Murderfang.

 

I see 2 possible uses. The autocannon variant can back up a unit or two of Eliminators, adding some extra firepower and threatening counter-charge against anyone who tries to tangle with them in melee. Alternatively, take the flamer variant stick him in cover close to the enemy lines and you have a threat your enemy cannot afford to ignore.

[Guest Triszin]

I vote flamer cannon

[ranulf the revenant]

Would probably go with the Autocannons. They're more flexible, plus flaming something you would want to charge (and other stuff might not be in range) could lead to not making the charge Edited February 8, 2020 by ranulf the revenant

[Karhedron]

The thing with the flamer is you start off 9" away from the enemy but if you get T1, you get to move before you charge so you could easily BBQ one target and then charge another.

 

If you don't get T1, the flamer gives some fairly nasty overwatch against enemies that like to charge.

[Trokair]

I run a Dreadguard (Vanguard Detachment full of Dreads) from time to time.

 

Bjorn with AC (or Hellfrost if feeling fluffy/friendly/noncompetitive)

Murderfang

2x Wulfen dread with Shield and Axe (HF are default in list creation but sometimes get dropped for spare points)

0-1 Ven dread with Lascanoon if points allow

 

While the claw on the Wulfen dread is probably better as a generalist I find that Bjorn and Murderfang kill all the infantry that gets in the way easily enough so having the threat of a D6 weapon (with a CP reroll) for that one tough target feels worth it in that list.

 

That said at least one (and sometimes both) wulfen die before the end of turn 2 to protect and deliver Bjorn and Murder where they are needed. So I probably should run them as claws, oh well models are what they are.

 

The lone Ven dread (if I even have him) ambles along after them trying to kill/soften up problems like anti tank equipped enemy vehicles and might act as a second wave to reinforce whatever is alive from the core.

 

As others have said the extra movment on the Wulfen is gold for mele dreads.

[Guest Triszin]

The thing with the flamer is you start off 9" away from the enemy but if you get T1, you get to move before you charge so you could easily BBQ one target and then charge another.

 

If you don't get T1, the flamer gives some fairly nasty overwatch against enemies that like to charge.

incendum cannon is 12" range

heavy 2d6, str 5, ap-1, dm 1

 

vs 36" iron hail threat range

Edited February 8, 2020 by Triszin