Astartes Doctrinal Rule Changes

[9x19 Parabellum]

Being discussed in the Iron Hands sub-forum, but since it affects more than just IH, thought i'd post this here:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/02/27/space-marines-rules-update-february-2020/

 

How will the doctrinal changes affect your playstyle and army building?

Edited February 27, 2020 by 9x19 Parabellum

[War Angel]

Doesn’t change my army. I play fist, and I wasn’t spamming stalkers to do the heavy lifting.

 

Also I play a lot of nids and tau.

[War Angel]

I just read the commentary on the changes and I couldn’t agree more. I didn’t want to build the “always in devistator docterine” army, I wanted to progress, but I saw other players list and felt I was handicapping myself. Now it’s the way it should be.

[Dumah]

Already a thread for this in News and Rumours: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362256-februrary-2020-space-marine-errata/

[Hymnblade]

As a Black Templars player, it basically doesn't affect me at all. Since nobody seems to think BT were the chapter that needed a nerf, this suggests they did an OK job of controlling splash damage.

 

One thing that I like about the doctrine change is that there are upsides and downsides to each chapter doctrine. Devastator comes into play the soonest and buffs you before you suffer (too many) casualties, so it has the most reliable impact on the game, but it only lasts one turn, so the overall impact may be small. Tactical is middle-of-the-road, later than Devastator but lasting longer. Assault lasts the longest and can potentially have a huge impact, but it comes into play so late that it may not matter at all.

 

Also, Ultramarine Doctrine manipulation looks a lot more useful now, which is a cool unique thing for the "exemplars of the Codex" chapter to have.

[Link2edition]

As a Black Templars player, it basically doesn't affect me at all. Since nobody seems to think BT were the chapter that needed a nerf, this suggests they did an OK job of controlling splash damage.

 

One thing that I like about the doctrine change is that there are upsides and downsides to each chapter doctrine. Devastator comes into play the soonest and buffs you before you suffer (too many) casualties, so it has the most reliable impact on the game, but it only lasts one turn, so the overall impact may be small. Tactical is middle-of-the-road, later than Devastator but lasting longer. Assault lasts the longest and can potentially have a huge impact, but it comes into play so late that it may not matter at all.

 

Also, Ultramarine Doctrine manipulation looks a lot more useful now, which is a cool unique thing for the "exemplars of the Codex" chapter to have.

[War Angel]

Isn’t it ironic how ultramarines are the only ones who can break the rigidness of the docterines.

[Ishagu]

Isn’t it ironic how ultramarines are the only ones who can break the rigidness of the docterines.

Iron Hands can give any unit the Dev Doctrine at any time.

[Dumah]

I will admit it's ironic and not a little amusing that we're being forced to be flexible.  

[NatBrannigan]

I love how it's all downside except for an "oh Iron Hands have this thing to help them". But of course they do!

 

I joke by the way, I know they've been hit really hard by these changes.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Friendly warning, guys: watch your steps. As soon as this dropped, the team primed their meltas.

 

Play nice.

[Aurica]

As someone who usually prefers to use Ultramarine super doctrines, I would prefer to stick around with Tactical Doctrine more than just the 2nd and 3rd turn.  Overall I think this nerf affected IH and IF more than the rest...

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

Isn’t it ironic how ultramarines are the only ones who can break the rigidness of the docterines.

Iron Hands can give any unit the Dev Doctrine at any time.

 

 

That's just not an accurate representation. They can give 1 unit the Dev Doctrine as long as they have CP's to do it.  That's not even close to the same thing. I realize your post was a response to War Angel's comment about "only" ultramarines breaking the rigidness, but even in that context, the statement is flawed.

 

I say this with respect Ishagu; I'm not blind to what a prolific, helpful and upstanding member of B&C you are.

[9x19 Parabellum]

As someone who usually prefers to use Ultramarine super doctrines, I would prefer to stick around with Tactical Doctrine more than just the 2nd and 3rd turn.  Overall I think this nerf affected IH and IF more than the rest...

 

I predict Iron Hands will completely disappear from the competitive meta.  They are still a good faction to be sure, but Ultras, Raven Guard, Fists and White Scars will overtake them in doctrinal utility.  And given that no one likes painting yellow or white, we will mostly see Ultras and Ravens.

[Link2edition]

I am really happy with the change. It seems like all I was playing against were Iron Hands and Fists lately. Maybe the meta will diversify a bit more after this.

[Aurica]

Instead of outright deleting Adaptive Strategy, I would have preferred them to make it use once per game or increase it to 3 CP or both.

[War Angel]

Instead of outright deleting Adaptive Strategy, I would have preferred them to make it use once per game or increase it to 3 CP or both.

I blame win at all cost players.

Edited February 27, 2020 by War Angel

[Kallas]

Instead of outright deleting Adaptive Strategy, I would have preferred them to make it use once per game or increase it to 3 CP or both.

 

Yeah, this is what annoyed me about the changes (well, that and forcing the Doctrines to change: the problem wasn't necessarily about the Doctrines themselves, it was the Super Doctrines that broke it - well, plus Iron Hands having a three-part Tactic on top of their powerful Super Doctrine).

 

Adaptive Strategy changing to 2CP, can shift it forward by one stage (Tactical -> Assault), and being once per game could have been just fine. Devastator Super Doctrines could then get two turns out of it, rather than a pretty measly single turn; Tactical Doctrines could get three turns out of it/possibly starting the game in Tactical; and Assault could actually benefit from it earlier.

 

That, in my opinion, would have made it a much more compelling Stratagem and more useful to every Chapter.

 

Additionally, forcing one to shift Doctrines just seems...odd, thematically speaking. Yes, they're meant to show the progression of battle...but not all battles would be the same: some would be a long range slugging match for a significant portion (eg, Tau, or Guard), whereas some would have barely any long range shooting matches (Tyranids, or Orks) due to the different fighting styles. The Doctrines, now, don't accurately reflect the proper flexibility that the Codex Astartes espouses.

[Marshal van Trapp]

My gaming group was thinking of a "Adaptive Strategy 2 CP: Use this stratagem on your second turn, if devastator doctrine was active last turn you can remain in devastator doctrine for this turn, otherwise you can select either tactical or assault doctrine and for this turn that doctrine is active instead. This stratagem can only be used once per game."

 

Its in keeping with the idea of flexible strategies but also isnt just completely broken, also making it 2 CP means you have to really think about if you want to use it or not

[Link2edition]

 

 The Doctrines, now, don't accurately reflect the proper flexibility that the Codex Astartes espouses.

 

I hear you, and while I don't entirely disagree. I believe this change will make the game play better. Sometimes Fluff just has to take a backseat.

 

Example: I once played a sci-fi tabletop game where one faction's fluff said all their gear was unhackable.

Turned out this gave them a competitive advantage since they could effectively ignore a whole game mechanic.

The company that published this game made this faction follow the same rules as everyone else, because while it contradicted the fluff, it made the game work.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I mean as  salamander player I am now going to be using flamer and melta weapons rather then just holding back with the lascannons and sicarans ect, which does help differentiate between them in 40k and Heresy.

[Dracos]

I think they went a bit far with the Adaptive Stratagem. Hopefully future playtesting may take this as a “beta” and alter it in a way that maintains some balance but gives more than one turn to the Devastator Doctrine, even if it’s at a 3CP. As a Raven Guard guy I can tell you I’d save 3CP to get a third Turn out of the Tactical Doctrine.

 

Regardless it should be a “Once per Battle” strat.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Dracos

[Aurica]

 

Instead of outright deleting Adaptive Strategy, I would have preferred them to make it use once per game or increase it to 3 CP or both.

 

Adaptive Strategy changing to 2CP, can shift it forward by one stage (Tactical -> Assault), and being once per game could have been just fine. Devastator Super Doctrines could then get two turns out of it, rather than a pretty measly single turn; Tactical Doctrines could get three turns out of it/possibly starting the game in Tactical; and Assault could actually benefit from it earlier.

I agree.  I would prefer a version of Adaptive Strategy that lets you shift the Doctrines back and forth rather than the current Codex's iteration of it.  It would allow Chapters that shine in Assault doctrine to do better.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Aurica

[tychobi]

I like it! So much sense! I really like the fluff of rigid astartes way of war as religion and these rules effortlessly support that idea while also leveling the marine meta a bit and expanding quality choice pool for most lists. Elegant is a word I have NEVER associated with GW rules but this update comes close. Great job.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Iron Hands are still number one in my book.

I like it! So much sense! I really like the fluff of rigid astartes way of war as religion and these rules effortlessly support that idea while also leveling the marine meta a bit and expanding quality choice pool for most lists. Elegant is a word I have NEVER associated with GW rules but this update comes close. Great job.

You always crack me up... do you even SPACE MARINE Bro ??!