How are Phoenix Lords made?

[Dr. Clock]

It makes abundant sense that exarchs would / should grow in power with age and experience and accumulated spirit stones.

 

Basically though, the 'Phoenix Lord' label appears to just be short form for 'Aspect Founder'.

 

It's an open question whether a given Asuryani culture would accept an Aspect not developed already in the distant past from the (spiritual) lineage of Asurmen. Nevertheless, it's entirely possible for Asurmen to inspire new Aspects to come forth in the process of war.

 

So your 'development pipeline' makes sense in terms of 'levelling up', but we need to remember that most Exarchs are going to be from established, popular Aspects, and that essentially none of those ever go up the step to Phoenix Lord other than through donning the armour of their actual Phoenix Lord.

 

This does create an even bigger question though: what happens to Aeldari who get lost on the Path of the Warrior without the protection of an existing Aspect or shrine? Most of them likely just die on the field, I imagine, but surely the odd nutter would land amongst Outcasts and Corsairs trying to work through and perfect their new Warrior Way?

 

So assuming a) an individual strays from the mainstream Paths of the Warrior and b) survives and retains control enough to retreat to some hermitage state as an Outcast (not joining an existing Shrine), they'll just be a crazed killer unless they can construct their panoply to perfect and regulate the Way they've discovered, and act as a living Shrine to accept the souls of new aspirants. But then does one have to establish a Shrine by convincing a Craftworld that their Aspect is legitimate before it can be said to be a 'true aspect'?

 

So for new aspects, is one a Phoenix Lord as soon as one's lost on an unregulated Path of the Warrior? As soon as one has a unique mystical panoply? As soon as one has established a Shrine? Or only after centuries of travelling the stars searching for conflict to ply their trade?

 

I think the panoply could be more important than we might give credit, and basically I think those would likely look like 'diverging skill trees' based on the subtle divergences in wargear and aptitude that exist even on those narrow paths. There would likely be an opportunity cost in developing new weapons and associated ways, which could slow either general 'squad-buff' capacity or personal stat increases.

 

So instead of a 'straight-line', in an RPG-type setting it could be fun to build more choice for the individual into it where level 1 is 'pick a [new weapon set], [aspect skill], or [stat increase]', but then have the next choice in each category be half again more expensive than the previous level in other categories... This of course requires a pretty granular xp system, but building more choice into the progression might feel better, especially if you've got multiple exarchs - so you can actually distinguish 'tank exarch' from 'buff exarch' from 'flexible exarch' from 'blender exarch' or whatever.

 

This is fun!

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Brother Tyler]

Ah, now we're getting into very interesting territory. Much of that territory has been explored in some parallel discussions:

• Was each Aspect Warrior Shrine created by a Phoenix Lord?
• Are other types of "Phoenix Lords" possible?
• Thoughts on minor/additional Aspects

[Xenith]

Reading more into this, there's a novel I totally forgot existed, Asurman: Hand of Asuryan by Thorpe. That seems to go into a lot of the detail of the origins of Asurmen and the founding of the original temples.

 

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Asurmen

[TheMawr]

20 hours ago, Dr. Clock said:

 

Basically though, the 'Phoenix Lord' label appears to just be short form for 'Aspect Founder'.

 

 

The way I understand/interpret it goes even a little further than this... you cant become a phoenix lord the same way you cant become a founding father.. its not so much a rank, but rather a name for a group of history.. no matter the achievements, even when going way beyond what the original members/group did.. you will never be them, but rather something new. In a way the way 40k mythology is written its more plausible to actually have a new primarch made than a new phoenix lord, as a primarch is a class with a process of creation, and the other a title with historical context.

 

However.. one problem is the way they are written about (and lack of some details).. they are described as exarchs, even though they function the opposite.. an exarch loses the self identity, becoming completely consumed by the mask identity... the phoenix lord however are the self identity in the most persistent form, the self identity took over the mask identity in such a way that the self became the mask, opening the path of resurrection as the now (self)Mask of the phoenix lord can overtake the self identity of another exarch taking on that mask identity.

 

My theory on the why/how is that it has to do with the eldars stronger link to the warp, the evolution of the phoenix lords being not much different than the creation of slaanesh, though in much smaller ( and less malignant ) form. As the Asurya wandered the galaxy and influenced eldar culture enmasse, the "faith" of the eldar they met created an ascension of their being, and thus the Asurya became the phoenix lords. This would be something harder for other eldar ( especially exarchs ) to replicate, though someone like Eldrad could.. and possibly has gone through a similar process without even realising it yet.

 

Something to note is that when I got the 2nd edition codex ( keeping in mind english isnt my native language and I was very young back then ;) )  I somehow assumed there were only the 7 phoenix lords, with other aspect warriors being offshoot shrines from a same phoenix lord, specifically I thought Warp spiders were an offshoot shrine of (most likely) the striking scorpions and thus the warp spider phoenix lord would also be karandras. When I returned to 40k crimson hunters were a thing and I immediately assumed they were an offshoot of shining spears.. I also didnt make the connection with exarchs and phoenix lords and assumed the path system to be a very alien mindset, not something that is comparable to a human job choice, I thought it already took alot of focus and energy for an aspect warrior to abandon that path in peacetime and becoming an exarch was a deadend path of absolutely no return and total loss of identity, with the only endgame of an exarch being to be sacrificed in order to awaken an avatar of khaine or a phoenix lord.

while I now know this is not exactly how the lore works ( nor how it ever was written ) its a very persistent thing in my mind, so it might create some tunnel vision in discussions/speculation.

Edited November 10, 2022 by TheMawr
little edit

[Dr. Clock]

3 hours ago, TheMawr said:

I somehow assumed there were only the 7 phoenix lords, with other aspect warriors being offshoot shrines from a same phoenix lord, specifically I thought Warp spiders were an offshoot shrine of (most likely) the striking scorpions and thus the warp spider phoenix lord would also be karandras.

I mean, this doesn't seem necessarily untrue for minor/esoteric Aspects. Given that all Aspects owe their existence in some sense to the initial inspiration of Asurmen, it's entirely possible that Karandras was a more proximal 'inspiration' for Spiders than was Asurmen.

 

To use a 'family tree' analogy, we just don't really know whether the 'Aspect Tree' is grouped solely from Asurmen to Phoenix Lords or whether there is a higher level of 'branch complexity' where the major known Lords have their own 'branch lineages'. There may indeed also be the sprouting of 'other seeds' under the canopy, as it's distinctly possible that the most esoteric Craftworld-based Shrines are in fact earlier creations than the more codified Paths that were only later subsumed into the structure of the Paths on each Craftworld.

 

This happens all the time in our own religious history. For instance, many local deities and associated folk ritual and shamanic practices in Ancient China became understood in a Taoist framework, or became understood as Taoist only by way of differentiating Confucian practices from more local and ancient customs. In a more modern example, the Shinto religion in Japan wasn't what one might think of as a coherent religion until a 'National Religion' other than Buddhism was understood and promoted as a critical competitive asset by the Japanese Imperial establishment. So there again, lots of local 'folk customs' that had been integrated in Buddhist practice were just declared 'Shinto' in light of more contemporary understandings, requirements and anxieties.

 

Not to get too far off topic, it seems eminently likely to me that there are Craftworld-based Aspect Shrines that somewhat predate the arrival of the Hand of Asuryan, but are much more 'personal' or local to each Craftworld and its own ancient heroes, histories and lineages, and correspondingly less accessible to the mainstream of Asuryani culture in total and thus not ever very likely to find purchase elsewhere.

 

One definitely has a sense of an overarching framework for the Aspects. I tend to group the Aspects as the Noble line (Dire Avengers, Shining Spears), the Death line (Reapers and Banshees), and the Idol line (Dragons, Scorpions, Spiders, Crimson Hunters [aka Hawks of Kurnous]). I do feel like additions to the Noble Line would likely stem directly from Asurmen, the Death line might be more through Jain Zar and Maugan Ra, and the Idol line hold alot more of the esoteric/local Shrines that nevertheless link back to Asurmen or his apostles(?) even if it's just to denote the moment at which the local practice was incorporated as a legitimate Path of the Warrior.

 

The question remains: is the Exarch of a unique Aspect with only a single Shrine also by definition a Phoenix Lord?

 

I say yes, but there's no reason they would necessarily be as personally powerful as one of the 'big ones'. To me, Phoenix Lord is more of a title than a description.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

[Brother Tyler]

As the example of Karandras shows, simply being the founder of an Aspect isn't necessary to be called a "Phoenix Lord" (although Karandras might be considered the exception since each of the other known Phoenix Lords was the founder of their Aspect). The counter to this is that since Karandras reformed the Striking Scorpions, tempering the murderous influence of Ahra, it might be argued (a bit of sophistry, I think) that Karandras was the founder of the Striking Scorpions in the sense that the "modern" Striking Scorpions are based on his influences.

 

Regardless of all that, I don't think that simply founding an Aspect is sufficient to be a Phoenix Lord. Two other very important factors are the relative potency of the Exarch and the time it takes for the ancient Exarch personality to become dominant. The known Phoenix Lords are the most potent of the Exarchs of their respective Aspects. In addition, the Phoenix Lords differ from other Exarchs in that their ancient personalities establish dominance immediately, subsuming the personality of the Asuryani that dons their armour. Conversely, "lesser" Exarchs take more time for the ancient Exarch personality to become dominant, with the personality of the Asuryani that dons their armour retaining some level of control and distinctiveness for some undisclosed amount of time (and that amount of time might be variable). The key, to me, is the rebirth implied in the "Phoenix" portion of the title.

 

The lore makes it clear that the exact number of Phoenix Lords is unknown. While there is convincing evidence that each Aspect might have only one "Phoenix Lord," the lore is just muddy enough that some might argue otherwise. Regardless, the lore allows for Exarchs that approach the Phoenix Lords in terms of potency, even if those other Exarchs aren't accorded the title of "Phoenix Lord." To illustrate, imagine that Ahra hadn't become murderous and fallen. In this premise, Karandras would still be a masterful student of the original Phoenix Lord of the Striking Scorpions. Had Ahra remained as the Phoenix Lord of the Striking Scorpions Aspect, we would also have Karandras as an Exarch [nearly] equal to the Phoenix Lord in terms of potency and immediate dominance of the ancient Exarch personality. Karandras wouldn't be the "Phoenix Lord" of the Striking Scorpions in that he wouldn't be accorded that title, but he would be just as powerful a warrior. In this, other Aspects might similarly have Exarchs that approach or equal their respective Phoenix Lords in terms of their potency and immediate dominance of the ancient Exarch personality, but they might not be called "Phoenix Lords."*

 

As far as lineage goes, we have a solid example in the different shrines, which are subsets of their respective Aspects. The Dire Avengers Aspect, for example, has at least seven distinct shrines (Argent Crest, Falling Moon, Sable Helm, Silvered Blade, Knights Azure, Sun Blade, and Asurmen's Heart). While religions have been brought up, I think that a closer example is that of martial arts styles. A martial arts style might have a founder/grand master, comparable to a Phoenix Lord. While many styles might have similarities, some are very distinct (such as the differences between Karate-do and Capoeira). Each style might have a multitude of schools, each with their own master and instructors (equivalent to the other Exarchs). Each master of a style has the same basic foundation as their peers, but each also has their own unique applications. As new students master the style, some might go on to open their own schools, each of which might develop to include subtle differences from the original school in which the master was taught. The Argent Crest shrine may have been founded by an ancient Exarch who put their own stamp on the teachings of Asurmen and the Dire Avengers, though it clearly remains within the Aspect of the Dire Avengers. Similarly the other shrines have subtle differences from each other (not just in their markings), while retaining their identity as Aspect warriors who follow the teachings of their respective Phoenix Lords. Each of the Aspect shrines has their own unique markings that subtly distinguish them from their counterparts in the other shrines of their Aspect, but they might also have other differences. For example, the Knights Azure Shrine is known for pursuing any sightings of Asurmen while the Sun Blade Shrine is known for its fierce counter-charges. Both of these shrines follows the teachings of Asurmen and the Dire Avengers Aspect, but they have subtle nuances that distinguish them from their peers. Some martial artists might even deviate significantly from their original teachings, or they might incorporate completely new teachings or synthesize other styles, creating whole new schools. In a similar fashion, while the most well-known of the Aspects descend from the students of Asurmen, other Aeldari through the millennia may have developed their own styles/Aspects. Many obscure Aspects found on relatively few craftworlds might be the result of such developments - Exarchs who deviated from the teachings of their Phoenix Lords or Aeldari warriors who developed their own distinct Aspects. The Crimson Hunters might be an example of such a development, with some ancient Asuryani pilot becoming an Exarch and creating this unique Aspect, an Aspect that bears little resemblance to the other Aspect warriors.

 

One interesting thing (among many) is the contradiction in the lore. On the one hand, we have the established lore about the true number of Phoenix Lords being unknown. On the other hand, we have the Asuryata, the epic poem about the Phoenix Lords (which would indicate that we should be able to consult the Bards of Twilight who can draw upon their knowledge of the Asuryata to identify all of the Phoenix Lords). From a real world perspective, saying that the number and identities of all of the Phoenix Lords is unknown is just a handy way for Games Workshop to leave the door open for the creation of new Aspects, as they did when they expanded from the original six.

 

My answer to Dr. Clock's question (The question remains: is the Exarch of a unique Aspect with only a single Shrine also by definition a Phoenix Lord?):

Only if such Exarchs have reached a sufficient level of potency and their personalities establish immediate dominance when a new Aeldari warrior dons their armour. Just MHO.

 

Admittedly, I could be wrong and "Phoenix Lord" could simply be a title given to the most senior Exarch of an Aspect. In most cases, that's the founder of the Aspect. However, the original descriptions and rules for the Phoenix Lords made it clear that they are the most powerful and ancient of the Exarchs.

 

 

 

* This is the tack I'm taking with my homegrown expanded Exarchs rules.

[Dr. Clock]

18 hours ago, Brother Tyler said:

In a similar fashion, while the most well-known of the Aspects descend from the students of Asurmen, other Aeldari through the millennia may have developed their own styles/Aspects. Many obscure Aspects found on relatively few craftworlds might be the result of such developments - Exarchs who deviated from the teachings of their Phoenix Lords or Aeldari warriors who developed their own distinct Aspects

Lovely.

 

It seems almost a certainty to me that 'esoteric Aspects' include both 'Shrines established by the original pupils of Asurmen' and 'later developments/deviations from the major branches'. Indeed it may not be clear in the present which is which, and it does appear also that some Aspects don't necessarily even have a known Phoenix Lord (Warp Spiders).

 

It's interesting to think about the 'point of deviation' or 'point of inspiration' for new Shrines or Aspects. Like, who gets to make the call as to whether a given Exarch/shrine is 'now distinct from the Path of the Dire Avenger'?

 

It seems relatively appropriate to bring in the example of the 'sudden' versus 'gradual' models of Buddhist enlightenment here: basically if we think of Exarchs generally as 'Enlightened/transcended individuals', the process of Enlightenment can take the form either of gradual, incremental and self-conscious elevation, or sudden 'inspired' change that may allow individuals to 'suddenly discover' their transcendant nature without going through the mainstream steps of monastic development. So I'd suggest that while it does appear that most Phoenix Lords or 'Exarchs with sufficiently powerful original personas' would arrive at that state more or less step-wise, there are numerous situations that could prompt the sudden emergence of a Phoenix Lord.

 

I'll return to the panoply again, as it does seem to be a strongly defining features for each Aspect. In some cases one might expect an Exarch to gradually develop and refine their weapons toward narrower and narrower specialties until at some point, for instance, a Dire Avenger Exarch winds down training their Shrine with catapults and starts to inculcate their pupils with some other distinctive weaponry like... gunspears and shields to double down on the Protector archetype. The name of this new Aspect might even retain its connection to the lineage, and devotees might consider themselves 'part of the lineage' even when acknowledging that their esotericism is a substantial local deviation. But at some point the Exarch falls and the next one to don the armour is immediately subsumed by the original identity which prompts others to declare the Exarch a Phoenix Lord, and by definition their Aspect is defined as finally 'unique and separate' from the parent lineage.

 

A possible contradiction to this is that we have no rationale for any Aspect warrior who is not an Exarch to have wargear other than the single standard loadouts. No double pistol scorpions, or great weapon Banshees, or shielded Avengers, or flamer dragons, knife spiders or sword hawks. This is mostly understandable given the real world restrictions on model kit production, but 'intermediate' stages between 'budding and branching' Aspects are simply not really represented in current lore... We do have the diverse 'Exarch powers and weapons', but there doesn't seem to be much give as it comes to arming your run of the mill Aspect Warriors.

 

A more 'sudden' change might occur whereby original weapons are lost, and in the process of creating new ones, a new Aspect is revealed to or 'discovered' by an existing Exarch, who then establishes or re-names their home Shrine. This process may not make the first exarch immediately a Phoenix Lord in Brother Tyler's sense, and indeed could occur as more or less a 'side step' on the development path where other than change (and likely upgrade) in weaponry, their basic physical attributes don't just suddenly max out to PLord levels, nor their persona emerge as 'immutable'

 

 

18 hours ago, Brother Tyler said:

Only if such Exarchs have reached a sufficient level of potency and their personalities establish immediate dominance when a new Aeldari warrior dons their armour.

 

Makes sense. This does seem to be a helpful feature for defining Phoenix Lords. So it seems like maybe our model is something like 'Phoenix Lord = 'level of potency' +  'dominant original personality' + 'unique panoply'? This would allow for multiple Phoenix Lords in a given Aspect at some point, so long as they all had different armaments (like 'Phoenix Lord of double shuriken' and 'Phoenix Lord of spear and shield' both being technically possible within the Path of the Avenger?).

 

It does seem to me that the Aspect Founder nature might be a fourth indicator, as it seems unlikely that Asurmen would be sharing the Avenger Phoenix mantle with other Exarchs, even those with the level of identity dominance/power and weaponry that might otherwise suggest the 'highest title'. If they are Dire Avengers, Asurmen is their Phoenix Lord.

 

So as a list of ingredients we get possibly:

 

A: All Phoenix Lords are Exarchs

B: All Phoenix Lords have unique weaponry

C: All Phoenix Lords have attained a coherent enduring personality that adheres to their armour beyond death

D: All Phoenix Lords have founded and mastered a unique Path of the Warrior or Aspect of Khaine

 

Seems relatively exhaustive/complete to me, admitting that these four attributes can be gained in almost any order (although if C is true, A is true by definition of Exarch as 'sentient suit of armour')

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

[Brother Tyler]

After taking everyone's feedback into account, I made some revisions to my attempt at rules for representing more advanced Exarchs. You can see them here.

 

Interestingly enough, older editions of the game did a much better job of representing Exarchs of different potency; and the Phoenix Lords were more clearly Exarchs in older editions. It wasn't until the more recent editions (6th and later) that GW starting failing the Exarchs. I think that much of that has to do with the ascendancy of the Autarchs as the heroic leaders of the Asuryani, replacing the Phoenix Lords. Prior to the addition of the Autarchs, Craftworld Eldar players had to choose between the Avatar and Farseers, with the Phoenix Lords being available as heroic leaders that weren't psykers or daemons. I went through the older editions and created similar sets of progression rules for the Exarchs there, too, but I won't present those [for now].

 

Something I would love to see is a way for an Autarch or pseudo-Autarch (i.e., a warrior who isn't a strategist) to become a sort of Phoenix Lord. It would be interesting to see a "younger" Asuryani create their own Aspect, and I think that the Autarchs are probably the closest representation we have for that. I don't think such warriors would quite be "Phoenix Lords," but they might have the potential to become such if they can develop the potency to rival the Asurya.

 

One thing I didn't do, but which was brought up here, was create a rank that truly rivals the Phoenix Lords in terms of being independent from a squad and being able to affect multiple squads in range. I absolutely think that there's room for that, but I could see some players balking at the notion. In my mind there's room for at least one more rank above the "Ascended Exarch" rank. At this hypothetical rank, the Exarch becomes independent and gains the hypothesized aura powers (and possibly imbues their armour with power, gaining that 2+ save that I have kept from the Ascended Exarchs).

[Spacefrisian]

Its funny that in spite of all the skills displayed by that Eldar guy from that book "Eldar Prophecy" he aint counted as the Warpspider Phoenix lord after donning that suit of armor.

 

[Brother Tyler]

1 hour ago, Spacefrisian said:

Its funny that in spite of all the skills displayed by that Eldar guy from that book "Eldar Prophecy" he aint counted as the Warpspider Phoenix lord after donning that suit of armor.

 

 

Can you provide more information for those of us that haven't read that book?

[Xenith]

16 hours ago, Spacefrisian said:

he aint counted as the Warpspider Phoenix lord

 

That's what C.S.Goto was aiming at, and he essentially was, with a name, character that took over the other charater's etc, however as with all of C.S.Goto's work, it was bunk and largely forgotten about and swept under the rug by GW, backflipping terminators and all. One character has an arm cut off three times over the course of the novel, I think Goto thought that they were actually spiders. 

[Brother Tyler]

I’ve been thinking about this way too much, but here’s my theory/headcanon for the development of the Exarchs (to include the Phoenix Lords). This expands upon some ideas I’ve posted previously, but here I’m focused on the creation of new Exarchs (i.e., without the benefit of an existing Exarch suit/identity for an Aeldari warrior to adopt). All the existing Exarchs, including the Phoenix Lords, had a similar starting point.

 

TLDR: The basic hypothesis is that the exarchs, including the Phoenix Lords, developed their superior abilities in large part because their souls were not added to the infinity circuits of their respective craftworlds. Had their souls been added to the infinity circuits, the development of the exarchs would have been much slower and there might be fewer and less powerful exarchs as a result.

 

The development of the exarchs appears to have begun either as a result of or in parallel with the development and institution of the Eldar Path among the Asuryani – those Aeldari who retreated from the decadence of the Aeldari Empire upon the craftworlds. The Eldar Path demands absolute, but temporary, focus upon one of a multitude of paths (Ai’elethra). The Asuryani will focus, and perhaps master, a path and then move on to another path. There are many paths that an Asuryani can follow, including that of the artisan, command, mariner, etc. In most cases, leaving a path that one has mastered or reached some level of fulfillment upon is both easy and normal. However, we know of at least two paths for which it is possible to become “lost” or “trapped” and never leave. For those that follow the Path of the Seer, becoming a Farseer is the result of becoming lost upon that path; and for those that follow the Path of the Warrior, becoming an Exarch (Menshad Korum) is the result of becoming lost upon that path. While the Path of the Outcast isn’t a true path, Illic Nightspear might be an example of what is possible when one becomes lost on that “path.” In truth, it might be possible to become lost upon any path, but there has only been official confirmation of such happening on a few paths.

 

When an Asuryani dies, their spirit stone is embedded in the craftworld’s wraithbone infinity circuit where they join the matrix of all the deceased Asuryani of their craftworld. The fate of Farseers [that aren’t slain in battle] is to become a crystalline statue in the Dome of Crystal Seers. There, their spirits join the infinity circuit of their craftworld. Exarchs, however, do not have their spirit stones embedded in their craftworld’s infinity circuit. Instead, the spirit stone of an Asuryani that becomes an Exarch joins the spirit stones of all their predecessors in the Exarch armour. Exarchs are viewed with both awe and revulsion by their fellow Asuryani and the refusal to allow their spirit stones (and warlike spirits) to join the infinity circuit might be viewed as both a curse and a blessing. It’s a curse in that the warrior will never be allowed to mingle with the spirits of the other craftworlders. It’s a blessing in that, confined to and joining with the spirits of (just) other warriors allows the Exarch identity to advance beyond the knowledge, skills, and abilities that a single Aeldari might normally master within their long lifetime.

 

The first Exarchs, then, might not have been as powerful as they have become over the millennia. There were almost certainly some exceptional individuals who advanced beyond the norms of the average Aeldari’s development. Most, however, were simply highly skilled warriors who had mastered certain aspects of warfare and battle. Successors who were similarly lost upon the Path of the Warrior, then, adopted the ritual armour of their predecessors. Over time, as more and more Aeldari became lost upon the Path of the Warrior, wore the same armour, and added their souls to the miniature warrior-centric infinity matrix that formed therein, the Exarch became more and more powerful, developing knowledge and abilities beyond the scope of what might be developed in one Aeldari lifetime. The first Exarchs didn’t have ritual armour to wear or previous identities to adopt. Instead, it was their armour and their identities that formed the core that would be worn by successive Aeldari.

 

In this way, new Aeldari Exarchs are possible, especially in cases where a shrine has no predecessor Exarch suits/identities to adopt. Such Exarchs would probably be on the lower end of the power spectrum, but over time they have the potential to develop into far more powerful Exarchs, with the possibility of one day rivalling the Phoenix Lords. Indeed, there may be other Exarchs whose power levels rival the Phoenix Lords but, not being the apex Exarchs in their Aspect, aren’t accorded the “Phoenix Lord” title.

 

If the souls of Exarchs had been added to the infinity circuits instead, each Exarch would essentially be one of these “new” Exarchs without the benefit of multiple lifetimes of battle and multiple personalities. The Exarchs, then, would be limited to slightly superior versions of their respective Aspects, lacking the special Exarch powers that are the result of their limited warrior-centric infinity circuits. There might be a few such individuals that would be exceptional, but these would be few and far between. However, this would open the possibility to such Exarch souls being used to create superior ghost warriors, creating a replacement for the more powerful Exarchs/Phoenix Lords in the stable of Asuryani units.

 

Some of the Phoenix Lords and more powerful Exarchs might still exist as unique entities simply because their craftworlds ceased to exist and they would be fated to remain “trapped” in their armour and “resurrected” by successors over the millennia. Some might find themselves added to some craftworld’s infinity circuit, but there might be some more against adding the soul of Aeldari from craftworld X into the infinity circuit of craftworld Y. If such Phoenix Lords and Exarchs existed, they might not be as potent as those that we currently know. Conversely, some might remain as powerful as they are currently known, especially those that might have endured this cycle since the time of the Fall.

[The Yncarne]

Reminds me of second edition lore. 
 

do you see any downside to the Infinity Circuit to having exarch soul stones within other than a diminished presence? Since exarchs are also reviled to some extent, would that carry over into the infinity circuit?

[Brother Tyler]

I assume that the Asuryani resistance to Exarchs having their souls in the infinity circuit might be concern about such souls having a bellicose influence on the craftworld.

[The Yncarne]

2 hours ago, Brother Tyler said:

I assume that the Asuryani resistance to Exarchs having their souls in the infinity circuit might be concern about such souls having a bellicose influence on the craftworld.

That’s one aspect I considered. I always wonder how much of the Path in canon overlaps with religion. In the limited, non-BL lore I’ve read, adherence to the Path is dogmatic and since exarchs deviate in your sense of becoming lost within it, I wonder if their are ‘social’ aspects too such as shunning, a rise in disagreements in general or restlessness in addition to an increased amount of bellicose behavior. 
 

that could open interesting narrative options… or not. 

[Dr. Clock]

Cool stuff, Brother Tyler - all seems about right.

 

Apologies for the double threadcromancy at this point lol.

 

But also just remembering re: 'new exarchs' that there is planned obsolescence for Exarchs by way of being nominated Young King in a year when their Avatar wakes. Seems like the older the shrine, the more likely that there has been at least one 'rupture in the lineage' on account of being consumed by Khaine (probably). And therefore 'young exarchs' are maybe most commonly re-opening or consecrating Shrines established by a previous Young King. It could be that the Shrines are more or less the interface between the Infinity Circuit and the Aspect of Khaine. So like the Shrine itself is a War Mask for the Craftworld with each Exarch being a 'mediated embodiment' of that gestalt aspect of Khaine or whatever...

 

It'd be interesting in an RPG setting to allow for 'Nomination' as a branch in the progression tree if anyone ever wants to do a 're-spec' on their character. Play as an Avatar for one combat and then re-spec to the 'next iteration' of their Shrine's custodian ; )

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.