Was each Aspect Warrior Shrine created by a Phoenix Lord?

[Tyriks]

Is every instance of an Aspect Shrine founded by the Phoenix Lord? It seems like they only mention shrines being created by the PLs but they also talk about how rare it is for them to visit even the main Craftworlds and yet they could have dozens of shrines. It raises logistical questions too about when they found time for all that when many of them have been fighting nonstop. It also raises questions about why there can be so much variation between shrines, or why some shrines get more love than others (e.g. Jain Zar wouldn't seem super fond of the Ebon Witch shrine based on how infrequently they come up in the fluff).

 

But at the same time I'm curious about how anyone else would go about setting a shrine up - maybe you could have an Exarch from another Craftworld show up and build one up but it doesn't seem like that would be a regular occurrence. The only concrete fluff I'm familiar with is the Path of the Warrior where a character reopens a dormant shrine, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not sure if there's any real answer to that issue one way or the other, but does anyone know of any sources on this?

[Brother Tyler]

There are a couple of older discussions that touch on this, the most relevant being How are Phoenix Lords made?, which goes into the lore behind the exarchs (the Phoenix Lords are simply the most advanced exarchs of their respective aspects), and Thoughts on minor/additional aspects (which discusses minor shrines for which no Phoenix Lords have been named).

I suspect that the disciples of the various exarchs (whether Phoenix Lord level or lower) created the additional shrines, much the way a senior member of a martial arts dojo might open their own school. In addition, warriors that developed different specializations created their own aspects. Some of these may have survived and spread, but others failed to grow and either died out over time or were confined to a limited number of craftworlds (such as the Slicing Orbs of Zandros). Some of these minor aspect exarchs probably survive, but have not yet reached the level of the [other?] Phoenix Lords.

[Halandaar]

I suspect that the disciples of the various exarchs (whether Phoenix Lord level or lower) created the additional shrines, much the way a senior member of a martial arts dojo might open their own school. In addition, warriors that developed different specializations created their own aspects. 

 

This was my thinking as well, although another consideration is simply the huge timeframe involved. Although founding so many shrines might seem difficult over the span of a single human life, we're measuring the Phoenix Lords over 10,000 years (ish). In that context, it doesn't seem completely unreasonable that they could visit each and every Craftworld to found an Aspect shrine.

[Karhedron]

We don't really have a good definition of what a shrine is and exactly how it works. Does every Exarch have their own Shrine or are some shrines big affairs? An Exarch can be any Aspect Warrior who becomes stuck on their path so they do not have to have been trained by a PL. While the PLs founded the original shrines, I think more recent ones are founded by Exarchs so there are probably Shrines out there that have never met their founder.

[Tyriks]

 

I suspect that the disciples of the various exarchs (whether Phoenix Lord level or lower) created the additional shrines, much the way a senior member of a martial arts dojo might open their own school. In addition, warriors that developed different specializations created their own aspects.

 

 

This was my thinking as well, although another consideration is simply the huge timeframe involved. Although founding so many shrines might seem difficult over the span of a single human life, we're measuring the Phoenix Lords over 10,000 years (ish). In that context, it doesn't seem completely unreasonable that they could visit each and every Craftworld to found an Aspect shrine.

This is definitely a legitimate consideration, but the specific time line of the Fall makes it trickier in some cases. Like Maugan Ra was trapped in the Eye for centuries or millennia, so that would suggest that Dark Reapers need to have been introduced to many Craftworlds more recently. Others whose PL is unknown must have been founded quite some time ago if even Eldar don't remember who it was.

 

There are a couple of older discussions that touch on this, the most relevant being How are Phoenix Lords made?, which goes into the lore behind the exarchs (the Phoenix Lords are simply the most advanced exarchs of their respective aspects), and Thoughts on minor/additional aspects (which discusses minor shrines for which no Phoenix Lords have been named).

I suspect that the disciples of the various exarchs (whether Phoenix Lord level or lower) created the additional shrines, much the way a senior member of a martial arts dojo might open their own school. In addition, warriors that developed different specializations created their own aspects. Some of these may have survived and spread, but others failed to grow and either died out over time or were confined to a limited number of craftworlds (such as the Slicing Orbs of Zandros). Some of these minor aspect exarchs probably survive, but have not yet reached the level of the [other?] Phoenix Lords.

I can't believe I didn't think about this but the existence of Shining Spears shrines necessitates that someone other than a PL would have to found some shrines, like you say.

 

Thanks for the answers, everyone. I was wondering if it was reasonable to say that my DIY Craftworld was too small and remote for the PLs to have been there, without having to forego using Aspects.

[Iron Lord]

The Shining Spear aspect does have a Phoenix Lord though - he's just MIA:

 

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Drastanta

[Xenith]

The phoenix lords just taught their way of warfare to various Eldar, and traveled through the webway doing so. They would have set up the initial shrines, perhaps, but not all of the present ones. As an aspect warrior gets trapped on that path, they would become an exarch, then I assume would split from their former shrine and establish their own 'dojo' as it were, to teach their own nuanced version of the aspect martial art. Path of the warrior by Thorpe covers this part of Eldar life, but ages since I've read it.

[Xenith]

Asurman was the first to walk the path of the aspects, and founded the dire evenger style. He taught his pupils to fight inthe style of one aspect of the war god, and they then went on to found other shrines on other craftworlds, however they all started as Exarchs, so this implies that any exarch can found a shrine. Recalling back to path of the warrior, I think the main character gets trapped on the path, and then the craftworld shows him the way to an existing, disused shrine, kind of like the room of requirement, however if all shrines are occupied I guess they could be directed to an open unused space to found a new one. 

 

While the codex does seem to indicate that the phoenix lords founded all, or at least most of the shrines, this isn't really realistic or reasonable - Some would have been founded by others. Similarly, the phoenix lords were originally exarchs, so would have founded some at that stage of their careers. Likewise, we don't have [known] phoenix lords for things like the Warp Spiders, Crimson Hunters or Slicing Orbs, and they might be relatively new compared to the main aspects, however these would have originally been founded by an exarch, who may, or may not have then gone on to become a phoenix lord. 

 

From that train of thought, we can assume then that it might be possible for other exarchs to travel and set up shrines on other worlds, paving their own way to become phoenix lords (who are essentially just the oldest exarchs) - over time we might see the emergence of other lords. We know multiple Phoenix lords is a possibility due to Arhra and Karandras - two powerful exarchs who had differing philosophies on the way of the scorpion. My thought as to why there aren't multiple phoenix lords for each aspect is that the PL's seek out great calamity - when they die in battle, the most senior exarch of that aspect will don the armour of the fallen PL and becoming one with them, thus stopping themselves from ever ascending to the rank of PL. 

 

Bt of a tangent, but there's a rich history and mythology there, and the answers are maybe not straightforward. 

[Closet Skeleton]

Nothing to say a Pheonix Lord has to take one visit to set up each shrine as he randomly visits each craftworld. If two Craftworlds ally for a battle and a Phoenix lord is present with a retinue of wanderers then that retinue can split up between both craftworlds and found numerous shrines with the Phoenix Lord's official blessing.

 

An Exarch is just an Aspect Warrior who has taken on the armour of the shrine's previous exarch and added his own spirit stone to the collection of stones from his predecessors. It takes multiple lifetimes and bodies to reach the skill of an Exarch, you can't become one just by getting trapped on the path of the warrior, you need to inherit a suit of armour with other spirit stones imbeded in it.

 

If you want to start a new Exarch lineage you don't found a shrine, you die and pass on your armour and spirit stone.

 

A Phoenix Lord is just the original Exarch (except for Karandras) of each Aspect.

 

If an Exarch founds a shrine and developes a new fighting style, he becomes a Pheonix Lord. Doesn't put them on the level of Asurmen or his direct students but that's where the younger Phoenix lords come from. So there's no Aspect without a historical Phoenix lord, but some Phoenix Lords are dead and waiting for their armour to be found so their legend can rise again.

 

Eldar are really traditionalist. Few Eldar are going to be willing to train at an Aspect Shrine that doesn't have a real legacy. So just calling yourself an Exarch and setting up a shrine isn't going to give you disciples, at least not from any respectful family. Getting stuck on a path is also a mark of shame that is only mitigated by the legacy of heroism attached to the Exarch shrines. So a random path stuck aspect warrior with a small band of youths as his followers is probably going to be exiled, not allowed to set up a shrine.

 

 

We don't really have a good definition of what a shrine is and exactly how it works. Does every Exarch have their own Shrine or are some shrines big affairs? An Exarch can be any Aspect Warrior who becomes stuck on their path so they do not have to have been trained by a PL. While the PLs founded the original shrines, I think more recent ones are founded by Exarchs so there are probably Shrines out there that have never met their founder.

 

The 2nd ed codex quotes from linked posts above state that some shrines have multiple Exarchs.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Closet Skeleton