Of "Comic-Book" Storytelling and Black Library

[bluntblade]

So there's a video which talks about how comic-book movies have introduced parallel narrative structures to cinematic settings, and it occurs to me that in its own odd way, Black Library has kind of mirrored this. So I'd be curious to see people's thoughts on where this has proved the biggest boon, and where it's proven a hindrance.

 

The Vaults of Terra books seem to me like a good example of this being used well - perhaps as with The Hollow Mountain, Chris Wraight is referring to something else he wrote. Crowl and company are on the outside of the events which Watchers of the Throne gave us an insider's view of. On a smaller scale, you have Wraight grabbing Bion Henricos from Little Horus and using him as part of Scars and then reverse-engineering a path from that starting point.

 

This can of course also run in somewhat reductive ways. Fulgrim by Graham McNeil's own admission is that it's the Back to the Future 2 of the series, which I think is a little more telling than he realises. The scenes which it shares with other books don't really have that much purpose to them.

 

But I'm curious to see what people's views are here, and if there are any possibilities that BL haven't yet leaned into.

[Roomsky]

Good vid. The guy seems to be discussing both long-form story telling and shared universe writing, which are distinct. I'll try to address each.

 

In regards to shared universe writing, I'm glad you brought up Chris Wraight, because I believe his Terra series are this done exactly right. You can just read Vaults of Terra, or you can just read Watchers of the Throne, they have everything they need individually to work and make sense by themselves. But, reading them together can be an even more rewarding experience, seeing where they overlap and where one story informs the other. I am firmly against the practice of expecting an audience to be aware of what happened previously within entirely separate series. It should be rewarding to read both, not required.

 

Doing it wrong is basically what happened to most story threads in the Horus Heresy. Even the most central of them, that of the Sons of Horus, becomes incomprehensible after Galaxy in Flames without supplementary reading. Little Horus? Fine, allusions to a greater universe but it's all explained in story. Vengeful Spirit? Good luck. Why is Loken alive? Who is Garro? Fulgrim's a snake? What is the Red Angel? etc. Handwaves within story are not the same as appropriate set up. This is again why I think it was a mistake to try for a multi-author Heresy "series" in the first place, it's far too all over the place between 18 legions, Custodes, Knights Errant, the Machanicum, Sisters of Silence, Navy, Army, etc. Wraight's Terra model would have been wonderful here. Give an author their own corner of things, make them write a cohesive story in that corner, hold meetings to ensure cameos are rewarding to readers, not essential. And don't splatter characters like Bion Henricos across multiple narratives. 

 

As for long-form story telling, that's fairly par-the-course for novels. It is certainly unique in film, but it's not unreasonable to expect a reader to follow a series that is clearly marked out and of somewhat even quality. But again, it should be obvious how to follow the story and if a character is given an arc it should belong to one creator. Nothing wrong with Abaddon killing Jubal Khan, but it should happen in the Scars' own book. It can happen in Abaddon's book too, but keep the characters arc where it can be easily followed.

 

Black Library is doing far better with this in the post-Gathering Storm era than in the Heresy. It's easy to find the threads you want, and if there is overlap, the timeframes are so far apart it doesn't much matter that authors are taking turns. 

 

Following the principles above, big story events should never be taking place in novellas or short stories (unless they only exist there, like with Thramas). Those are fine, but should be used to add depth, and fill in blanks involving character. Nemiel should never have died in a novella. Wraight should have used an Iron hand who wasn't already dead by short story in his Scars work. Loken should never have been revived in an audio drama. Conversely, Meduson's story should not have been concluded in a novel, shorts are where he belonged.

 

TL:DR BL does it right some times, but usually goes way too far when it isn't warranted, usually beyond reason or sense.

[bluntblade]

Good points. There is another point which Willems brings up in a later video, looking at Black Panther and Thor: Ragnarok. Those both make great use of the fact that characters have been introduced in a previous story and leap in without any preamble, essentially being freed up to just slot already-introduced characters into their narratives. Eidolon in Path of Heaven feels like a good example to me - yes the book overhauls him, but it means we can skip past a lot of stuff and have a greater understanding the dynamics of his pursuit of the Scars.

 

The bloat, admittedly, is a hazard at points, but I like how in Henricos' case a side character can weave between a few other bigger storylines.

[Roomsky]

Eidolon is another case of it being done well (surprise surprise, it's Wraight again.) My position can perhaps be made a little looser when it's a character who essentially functions as an obstacle. 

 

But to speak theoretically, if Mcneill had a whole EC saga on the go, I'd find it annoying if Eidolon suddenly died between books. I find it annoying enough that Eidolon actually gets his head chopped off in a novella. It may lower the stakes for those guest appearances, but again, I'd see things be coherent within a straightforward series.

[bluntblade]

That's a good point. 

 

Which - and this is something which gets brought up in yet another video - is where I think long-form media like film and novels have their limits in replicating comic-book storytelling. There's less scope for a sustained run of books around a single faction than comics following a single superhero. Hence why the Sons of Horus didn't get a lead role in a Heresy book for years on end.

[Fedor]

Vengeful Spirit must have been baffling at points to people that didn't keep up with all the supplementary material that was amping up in quantity, not just for the knights errant, but the actual Knights story had most of what was needed for the VS parts to work in an at the time limited novella.

[Tyriks]

 Loken should never have been revived in an audio drama. 

Him being there in Vengeful Spirit baffled me no end.  I felt his story was concluded satisfactorily and was thematically fitting.  When he was just back I was so confused, I thought I must have been remembering his name wrong or that Vengeful Spirit must be before Horus Rising et al.  Kind of killed my motivation to keep going.  

[Noserenda]

I think the Heresy series shows a lot of the problems that comic continuities have long term tbh, so much stuff to have read that you struggle to track it all, especially the spin offs and sub-series out there. It also has a lot of the prequel problems with some Legions, (Primarily the Iron Warriors) where you know their fate far in the future which leaves no room for peril, or in some cases character development.

Letting authors have their own fenced off areas is a nice idea but im not sure it would have worked long term either, all of the original Heresy series authors are writing a lot less BL stuff 14 years later and the best authors in the series werent even writing for BL back when it started. 

At leas this edifice is mostly working... *Stares at the Beast series*

Also +1 for the 42 millenium stuff by Wraight and Haley being great.

[Xisor]

Vengeful Spirit must have been baffling at points to people that didn't keep up with all the supplementary material that was amping up in quantity, not just for the knights errant, but the actual Knights story had most of what was needed for the VS parts to work in an at the time limited novella.

It was baffling enough for people who had been keeping up.

 

"Are there two Mortarions, or is this the same guy from Scars?"

 

Though keeping up (or having any interest in doing so) might explain a thing or two as to why the book is as it is.

 

---

 

I mean, following Mortarion alone is a fascinating thing to behold: which authors constructively worked with others' material, which authors disregarded the work of other authors?

 

I'm not sure I could speculate as to who did what, or why, but I know what it tells me about who I'd like to collaborate with, if I were writing.

 

I suppose it also begs the question (and feeds into the efficacy or necessity of Roomsky's guidelines) - can Chris Wraight's work ethic/philosophy/strategy be taught to or learnt by people who don't initially, readily share it?

 

If it can, then collaborative series can TOTALLY be done without the full force of the guidelines describe.

 

If it can't, you either need to be very selective with who collaborates with whom, or you don't do it except by strongly applying those conditions.

 

And with that, I'm very sympathetic to the idea of authors jumping arcs midship.

 

It's a long, lonely profession. A bit of freedom to pick up/drop things strikes me as desirable.

 

Although, creatively working against tough constraints is also somewhat desirable.

 

Hmm.

 

Good thing I'm not in the publishing business, or you'd be getting more experimental series by the bucketlpad until we find the formula that works. (And that isn't "just write the same character(s) in complete 400pg novels, endlessly like clockwork".

 

(I'm not even convinced that works as things stand now.)

[bluntblade]

Xisor, I feel like that's why I believe any Badab War series should have a very tight, carefully picked roster of authors.

[Phoebus]

This is again why I think it was a mistake to try for a multi-author Heresy "series" in the first place, it's far too all over the place between 18 legions, Custodes, Knights Errant, the Machanicum, Sisters of Silence, Navy, Army, etc.

With respect to the people involved, I think that has less to do with using multiple authors and more to do with other issues.

 

Given the benefit of hindsight — and certain perspectives shared by people writing and editing the series — it’s safe to say that the expectations the Horus Heresy team embarked on their project with changed radically by the time Fulgrim was published (if not earlier). Subsequently, the story being told grew out of proportions from what was originally thought possible. This increase in scope and scale wasn’t limited to just the telling of the Heresy itself, but came to include more and more stories that explored the Great Crusade (e.g., the Primarchs series). I appreciate the Black Library team’s ambition, creativity, and sheer work more than this post probably indicates... but the change in parameters and what appears to have been a lack of top-down direction and control meant that the Horus Heresy is awkward and disjointed in a way it didn’t need to be.

 

I find it annoying enough that Eidolon actually gets his head chopped off in a novella. It may lower the stakes for those guest appearances, but again, I'd see things be coherent within a straightforward series.

I think this ties into what I was trying to touch on above. I know the studio qualified that essential plot elements weren’t omitted from the numbered novel line, but in practice I don’t think that’s true. Things like Mortarion doing a character reversal with regard to his stance against sorcery was one of a thousand minor cuts that ultimately hurt the series. Those supposedly non-essential stories being collected in numbered novels that were published 1-2 years after their content (and the novels they were tied to) was initially released ultimately hurt the Horus Heresy. Edited April 6, 2020 by Phoebus

[bluntblade]

I feel like the HH shows what the MCU might have been like if you hadn't had Feige's iron grip: a lower baseline of quality perhaps, but more freedom for the best creators to do something exceptional. Edited April 6, 2020 by bluntblade

[Phoebus]

I’m not sure I agree with that, bluntblade.

 

To begin with, I’m not even sure that Feige hindered the creativity or storytelling of his directors and screenwriters. More to the point, though, I don’t think it needs to be a case of one or the other. Would the Horus Heresy have suffered if it had been planned and coordinated from the onset to the same extent we saw in the latter arcs?

[Roomsky]

 

This is again why I think it was a mistake to try for a multi-author Heresy "series" in the first place, it's far too all over the place between 18 legions, Custodes, Knights Errant, the Machanicum, Sisters of Silence, Navy, Army, etc.

With respect to the people involved, I think that has less to do with using multiple authors and more to do with other issues.

 

Given the benefit of hindsight — etc.

 

 

Certainly, it is with a certain amount of unfairness that I level these complaints.

 

That said, I'd argue a 1-book rotation of authors was a bad idea from the start, even with the series' more humble beginnings. I'll agree that short stories being available (at the times they were actually relevant) behind an effective paywall was a similar level of damaging.

[bluntblade]

Feige's limitations come more noticeably in terms of cinematic style - things like colour grade, action choreography or the way it's shot.

 

And if you look into Age of Ultron, that film was meant to introduce proper consequence to the MCU in a way which was put to one side until Infinity War. I know one female director refused the Black Widow gig because Marvel weren't going to let her direct her own action scenes - which is partly why you wouldn't know Black Panther's director was following up a boxing movie if you came to it cold.

 

It is a messy analogy, I'll grant you. Though I think in terms of the stories they told, there's also a lot of wheel-spinning.

 

The relative freedom HH writers seem to have had is both virtue and vice, for my money. It allows for left-field high points like MoM, but also whiplash-inducing flips in characterisation.

[Phoebus]

I take your larger point, but would offer that said level of control nonetheless allowed for projects as thematically different as Captain America: Civil War and Thor: Ragnarok.

[bluntblade]

To be honest, I wish Civil War pushed its themes further. That said, that control has allowed for a remarkably high baseline - there's very little MCU stuff that I actually dislike.

[Fedor]

It might be unfair, but from the outside looking in McNeil seemed to be the one that really struggled and played fast and loose with keeping things coherent.

 

You've got stuff like changing Fulgrim's fall a great deal, then retconning his own ending later. Big timeline mistakes in Outcast Dead that needed fixed. Not keeping up with where Mortarion was in his arc, which needed to be fixed by Wraight. Establishing the 30k Iron Warriors in Angel Exterminatus as mostly a vehicle to further work on his 40k IW characters.Turning the thousands sons storyline into a really awkward redo of French's Ahriman shards ideas...

 

I got something out of most of his HH stories tbf if not always liking entire books, but it was very individualistic bull in a china shop approach.

[Tyriks]

To be honest, I wish Civil War pushed its themes further. That said, that control has allowed for a remarkably high baseline - there's very little MCU stuff that I actually dislike.

I actually lost interest in comics and comic related products because of how much I dislike the MCU, for many of the reasons people complain about the HH series.  I felt that many characters had legitimate, interesting growth in one movie that was forgotten or ignored by the next movie, much like Mortarion being essentially multiple distinct characters in the Heresy books.  Any one movie might be fun to watch but knowing they will likely forget the meaningful growth for the next one makes it hard for me to feel invested.  I haven't read much of the Heresy after a certain point for the same reason.  Now I just stick to books by authors I know will do a good job.  I don't really care about individual details - I don't care if Sanguinius has black hair or blonde. I just care about consistent depictions of characters from book to book, which tends not to happen very well when new authors start writing established characters.  

[BrainFireBob]

Dragonlance did this both well and poorly- but for years, if you wanted to use character X, tgeir creator had input. Especially Weiss and Raistlin.

[MegaVolt87]

For me, the time gating of the short story content for so long that the main plot progressed past that important setup has been a major dissapointment for HH.

[Fedor]

For me, the time gating of the short story content for so long that the main plot progressed past that important setup has been a major dissapointment for HH.

True, and after they said all the Heresy content that was event/digital only/limited edition would be collected in the main series for all to read, they have ended up with a number of stories that didn't. Falling back into putting character development and plot stuff into advent shorts etc for the past few years again.

 

at the bottom of this release list page on Tymell's heresy site you can see them, though it does include Primarchs labelled stories as well.

 

https://sites.google.com/site/tymellsheresy/release-list

[bluntblade]

Given the recent discussion around the Heresy, I'd be curious to see if anyone has thoughts on this matter.

[Scribe]

Can you pose the question succinctly?

 

If its 'do you believe books should reference other books', then yes, I would very much think so. Its a setting. Its a shared universe. It really is. Characterization should be logical, and consistent.

 

I loathe, to my core, when someone says "Oh well in this authors interpretation of the universe..."

[b1soul]

BL's policy of "everything is canon and nothing is canon" is essentially a licence for authours to come up with their own interpretions