Thousand Son's and tanking. Go big or go home?

[Charybdis]

Very new to 40k so please excuse me if this seem's an incredibly noobish question but I'm putting together my first Son's list and I'm pondering what armour to include, or if I should include it at all. 

 

The Hellforged Predator seem's a bit beastly in comparison with the Imperium's version but that D6 wound on explosion seem's a bit of a double edged sword for the Son's.

 

But I noticed that the list also includes Hellforged Sicarans, which while pricier do seem to have a bit more bang for their buck.

 

Also given our deep strike and teleport capabilities are Rhinos a good investment?

 

I've been reading a bit of lore on the dusty one's and it turns out they loved Xiphon Interceptors, I quite like the idea of getting one purely from a narrative perspective, but on looking at their stat's they actually seem to be able to do a tasty bit of damage to enemy armour. 

 

Or are the Son's psychic gifts the best way to deal with enemy vehicles?

 

As stated I'm very new to 40K and the Son's will be my first army so any help will be massively appreciated.

[Archaeinox]

Rhinos were especially required in 5th ed, helpful in 6th and 7th, but do not provide us much in the current state of the game considering our mobility options that you mention. I have 2, and even in competitive play, they rarely find their way into a list. If you play ITC in an event, small units on foot are more valuable since you can hide them out of line of sight easily and thus do not require transports. One of the Thousand Sons' biggest weaknesses is when people put vehicles into our infantry units- You can turn the tables by throwing a Rhino into melee and it will help to slow down an infantry unit or vehicle you don't want to deal with as it approaches. People do it to us all the time and it's super frustrating.

 

I am not convinced that psychic powers are the best way for us to deal with enemy vehicles. Example: It's very frustrating when someone shoves a [insert Cheap Dedicated Transport] in front of a bunch of our sorcerers, and it eats a bunch of Smites, probably not even dying. Our best counter to enemy armor is 1. Tying it up and 2. Killing it with our own. You will have abysmal psychic phases so be prepared to fight without it. 

 

I very much recommend ranged anti tank from the codex, although there is merit to Hellforged Sicarans.. I'd take them in pairs, like most other vehicle choices.

 

I have used 3 predators for the Killshot stratagem, but moved down to 2. Lately, I've replaced them with 2 lascannon Contemptor Dreadnoughts and I am much happier. They can pretty much operate on their own, without being tied to a re-roll character since they start at ballistic skill 2+ and aren't tied to the deployment zone like predators are.

 

I hope my input helps you. I think a lot of what I wrote depends on what sort of games you are playing. Could you give us more detail in that regard? 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Archaeinox

[Charybdis]

Rhinos were especially required in 5th ed, helpful in 6th and 7th, but do not provide us much in the current state of the game considering our mobility options that you mention. I have 2, and even in competitive play, they rarely find their way into a list. If you play ITC in an event, small units on foot are more valuable since you can hide them out of line of sight easily and thus do not require transports. One of the Thousand Sons' biggest weaknesses is when people put vehicles into our infantry units- You can turn the tables by throwing a Rhino into melee and it will help to slow down an infantry unit or vehicle you don't want to deal with as it approaches. People do it to us all the time and it's super frustrating.

 

I am not convinced that psychic powers are the best way for us to deal with enemy vehicles. Example: It's very frustrating when someone shoves a [insert Cheap Dedicated Transport] in front of a bunch of our sorcerers, and it eats a bunch of Smites, probably not even dying. Our best counter to enemy armor is 1. Tying it up and 2. Killing it with our own. You will have abysmal psychic phases so be prepared to fight without it. 

 

I very much recommend ranged anti tank from the codex, although there is merit to Hellforged Sicarans.. I'd take them in pairs, like most other vehicle choices.

 

I have used 3 predators for the Killshot stratagem, but moved down to 2. Lately, I've replaced them with 2 lascannon Contemptor Dreadnoughts and I am much happier. They can pretty much operate on their own, without being tied to a re-roll character since they start at ballistic skill 2+ and aren't tied to the deployment zone like predators are.

 

I hope my input helps you. I think a lot of what I wrote depends on what sort of games you are playing. Could you give us more detail in that regard? 

It will just be very casual games at a local hang out, the meta seem's very chilled out, people seem happy to play fluffy or competitive. 

 

Army wise there's a total mix again. Seem's to be a lot of Space Marines but I did notice a couple of 'Knight's' which has me thinking I should beef up in the fire power department.

 

There's a tank called a Sicaran Venator which looked extremely tasty.

[N1SB]

Hi Brother, we have a good Thousand Sons player in our friendly modeling & painting-driven meta (we both previously came from a competitive meta) and he had the same observation as you: the Thousand Sons-specific units are great against infantry, but not against tanks/Knights/etc. He basically told me about the exact same issue you've already found (so good job, very astute of you to notice in advance, you're ahead of the curve). His finding was precisely as Brother Archaeinox said, that psychic powers weren't enough to take down heavy vehicles efficiently.

So I'm sharing his hands-on experiences a bit, as an active Thousand Sons player. He did have a regular Sicaran (he previously got it for a Word Bearers army iirc for the Horus Heresy/30k/AoD games, just test-drove it for Thousand Sons). I believe he used it against other players, but he was still looking for more firepower, so that suggests he found it wasn't enough. I haven't seen the Sicaran Venator in action, but I know it has a funky Wounding mechanic for Chaos; maybe that's the best choice, especially against Knights in particular, I don't know, but maybe you're onto something here.

I really like Brother Archaeinox's suggestion for Contemptor Dreadnoughts, for the trifecta of gameplay, theme as well as modeling reasons for Thousand Sons. The Thousand Sons have their own Contemptor designs and imho they look pretty great and would make great centrepieces. I think they had a points drop recently, making them even better bang-for-the-buck than before. The go-to loadout is double Butcher Cannons, it seems, in fact this is what makes people consider them. This would probably be the option I would choose if I were in your position, I think, I'd get at least 1 for every 500 pts or so (i.e. for 1,000 pts game, I'd take 2, for 1,500, I'd take 3, roughly speaking).

Since we're on the topic of Dreadnoughts, maybe you'd consider the Leviathan Dreadnought as well. It doesn't quite fit Thousand Sons quite as well though perhaps, but it's the envy of many a player.

So what did my friend ask me and what is the option I myself am known for? It's a type of mini-Chaos Knight known as Wardogs (previously known by their Loyalist name, Armiger Helverins):

I actually play Nurgle Daemons/Death Guard. I've converted these to look more Nurgle-themed as a result, but as of this writing, there aren't any actual Nurgle-themed game mechanics in their rules (I'm hoping for something in the upcoming Psychic Awakening book, Engine War, but it's no biggie). I have 2 of these and they're quite popular. It's because I think they're considered the most-easily-accessible, best-bang-for-the-buck for sheer firepower by tournament players here. Maybe it's because they can easily be drawn from an allied Lord of War Detachment and they bring things like Chaos Daemons...who generally lack good long-range weaponry...a easy way to get them. I don't know how your meta views allies, though; usually, it's not at all a big deal, but some feel it's better sportsmanship to just draw from 1 Sub-Faction.

But my Thousand Sons friend was very curious about this because they had a points reduction awhile back and they were always quite good. I think the only thing that holds him back as a pretty creative guy is that he wants to convert his in the same way I converted mine and he hasn't quite worked out how he should do it yet because he has high standards for himself (but don't worry about that; this guy painted a portrait of Ahriman, like an actual painting, just to get his mindset into Thousand Sons).

[Charybdis]

N1SB thank you for the advice I think I'm going to pick up some Armigers simply because they look so good (your Nurgle blessed War Dog is glorious to behold, did you make the horn out of green stuff?) but looking at their data sheet these things are brutal.

 

Are Butcher cannons another word for Auto cannons? There's no reference for Butcher cannons on games-workshop. 

 

I've literally just seen a Leviathon going for a decent price on E-Bay so clearly Tzeentch is dropping hints here.

 

Do you have any experience with Decimators? 

 

The Osiron dreadnoughts look fantastic, do they come with any T-Son's specific abilities? I believe in the lore they had retained their psychic powers. 

[WarriorFish]

Butcher cannons are Chaos autocannons - slightly different rules to normal autocannons but look the same The Orison sadly does not have rules for 40k but we live in hope, as it's a great model and would be nice to have some extra psychic might. I know Prot has used Decimators so he can give you more information on them

 

When you get going with your Sons don't forget a WIP topic here to show off your work

[N1SB]

Brother Admin WarriorFish covered everything perfectly, so I'll just share the following specific details. In case you're wondering about sizes:

Just to let you compare heights, I got a normal/Firstborn Marine and a Primaris Marine there. These are impressive models.

Regarding the conversion, I kept this relatively easy-peasy. I bought a box of Citadel Skulls (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Citadel-Skulls-2017) for me and all my friends, because it really is a Citload of Skulls, more than we'll ever need. Among those skulls are some horned Daemon skulls; I merely clipped one off and filed it down a bit to match the exact curve of the Armiger head (and there are spare heads). There are also Ork skulls where the jaw is separate; it happened to fit neatly underneath a pipe on the bottom of the Armiger head. I also took the shoulderpads off of it and together, these Armigers look like a pair of huge, hunched over Plaguebearers.

I hadn't considered a Decimator in the current 8th ed 40k before (I previously faced one in 30k), and when I looked them up they're cheaper than I thought! I'll let Brother Mod Prot share his field-testing though, I'm interested in his experiences as well.

[The Yncarne]

I must be the only one that has butcher cannons serve as poor anti-tank due to their measly 1 AP. You also aren't taking advantage of its (admittedly poor) LD modifier.

 

If I had the time, I'd consider hell forged contemptor dreads with a c-beamer or twin las cannon. 

[Charybdis]

Thank you N1SB your a remarkably thoughtful chap.

 

Managed to pick up a Leviathon today, it's second hand but magnetised and bearing the colours and heraldry of the Thousand Son's pre-heresy era!

Which fits in perfectly as they're the same colours I'm currently festooning my Rubrics in.

 

Tzeentch is no longer hinting for me to get one but rather walloping me over the head with a metaphysical Tzaangor.

 

I'm definitely intrigued as to how a Xiphon might work also. I've been scouting Battle Reports on YouTube but so far I haven't really found any aerial detachments for the Sons or even chaos as a whole actually.

 

People seem to prefer Helldrakes almost exclusively. Are they worth considering? 

[Charybdis]

The Blood Raven, I've actually managed to pick up two Contemptors. As I'm looking for anti-armour options I think I'll run them both with twin las and let you know how they get on.

 

Still intrigued by the Sicarans though, they've actually got some fairly decent movement on them and the Arcus can hit behind cover.

[Archaeinox]

I like mine. Working on painting more up.

[The Yncarne]

I loved the sicaran in previous editions, but haven’t tried it in this edition as it’s in Blood Raven colors. :)

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I've found the xiphon to generally be very killy, but it will occasionally have a game where it does nothing. It's also a right embuggerance to transport.
I admit the problem I have with my Thousand sons lists is one I share with my Grey knights. Namely, if I think I have enough anti tank I struggle to fit in enough infantry/characters or vice versa.
Hell forged predator varies, I've had luck with the plasma destroyer and lascannon sponsons.
I have been debating a cult of knowledge vanguard of Hellforged predators/contemptors/dakka dreads/scareb occult with a xiphon with a terminator sorcerer to try and get the bonus to wound.

[Charybdis]

I've found the xiphon to generally be very killy, but it will occasionally have a game where it does nothing. It's also a right embuggerance to transport.

I admit the problem I have with my Thousand sons lists is one I share with my Grey knights. Namely, if I think I have enough anti tank I struggle to fit in enough infantry/characters or vice versa.

Hell forged predator varies, I've had luck with the plasma destroyer and lascannon sponsons.

I have been debating a cult of knowledge vanguard of Hellforged predators/contemptors/dakka dreads/scareb occult with a xiphon with a terminator sorcerer to try and get the bonus to wound.

Excuse my ignorance I'm still learning 40k, but does Cult of Knowledge synergise well with armour?

Do T-Sons have any particular strategems or tactics that might provide a boost to our vehicles and dreads against opponents like Knights or Iron Hands?

[Are Verlo]

There are no "vehicle only" stratagems in PA. The strats from PA Focus mostly on rubrics/SoTs.

The psychic Powers are ok (some are stellar), but none are "vehicle buffs". Sorcerous facade can see some uses on vehicles. 

 

Cult of knowledge has no synergy unique to vehicles, but the delve power helps all cult units with the rerolls to wound.

 

I´ll echo many of the our fellow sorcerers and say many of the best vehicles are FW. Contemptors are good and scorpiuses are good, so are the termite drills as well.,